Bindi

There can be people that help on the way, but I don't think anyone else can ever take you to Self-realisation. The Guru within, the Spirit within, sure, absolutely, but expecting someone else to bring you to Self-realisation seems doomed to me. I accept that a Guru might bring about a certain transient state in devotees, more permanent if you stay permanently with the Guru, but Self-realisation or enlightenment, I don't believe it.

The popularity of Neo-advaita in the West suggests to me that this as a beginning is a disaster, leading to shallow intellectual realisation and endless irritating Absolutish.

Not familiar with self-enquiry which Ramana espouses, or the long Western tradition of 'Know Thyself' starting in ancient Greece?

There are four main paths of Yoga, to dismiss emphasis on any of these paths as useless is to disregard a persons natural predisposition. Amma's path and beliefs will suit her and the people drawn to her, but her perspective is not going to be valid for all other paths.

The practice of Self-inquiry, called Atma-vichara in Sanskrit, is the most important meditation practice in the Vedantic tradition. It is the main practice of the yoga of knowledge (Jnana Yoga), which itself is traditionally regarded as the highest of the yogas because it takes us most directly to liberation. Self-inquiry is the primary method through which Self-realization-- the realization of our true nature beyond mind and body--is achieved. [bUT] ... the path of Self-inquiry demands a certain ripeness or readiness of mind that may require other practices to develop – Swami J Perhaps this was the error that Ramana introduced, beginning with 'Who am I' inquiry instead of ending with it, which then allowed the ego-based mind game that is Neo-advaita to flourish in the West. What do you think of the Western tradition 'Know Thyself'?

Yet this is hacking, is it not? And this hacking at least requires effort.

I am always the Self, but currently ignorant of this as a realised reality.

I think the circus happens when the non-dual understanding is intellectual, and hasn't been won by hard work. Examining the false self is hard work and cannot involve illusion or delusion if you are to actually progress on the road towards Self-realisation.

Specially for you, an interview with Sri Nisargadatta ... Q: You said the body defines the outer self. Since you have a body, do you have also an outer self? M: I would, were I attached to the body and take it to be myself. Q: But you are aware of it and attend to its needs. M: The contrary is nearer to truth -- the body knows me and is aware of my needs. But neither is really so. This body appears in your mind; in my mind nothing is. Q: Do you mean to say you are quite unconscious of having a body? M: On the contrary, I am conscious of not having a body. Q: I see you smoking! M: Exactly so. You see me smoking. Find out for yourself how did you come to see me Smoking, and you will easily realise that it is your 'I-am-the-body' state of mind that is responsible for this 'I-see-you-smoking' idea.

From a text by Shankara, translated by Ramana Maharshi. It's a complicated topic. Buddhi, as the sum total of the inner organs, in contact with the reflected Consciousness has two aspects. One is called egoity, and the other mind. This contact of the buddhi with the reflected consciousness is like the identity of a red-hot iron ball with fire. Hence the gross body passes for a conscious entity. The contact establishing identity between the ego and the reflected Consciousness, is of three kinds. 1. The identification of the ego with the reflected Consciousness is natural or innate. 2. The identification of the ego with the body is due to past karma. 3. The identification of the ego with the witness is due to ignorance. The natural or innate contact continues as long as the buddhi, but on realization of the Self it proves to be false. The third mentioned contact is broken when it is discovered by experience that there is no sort of contact of anything at all with the Self, which is Being. The second mentioned contact, that born of past karma, ceases to exist on the destruction of innate tendencies (vasanas). In the deep sleep state, when the body is inert, the ego is fully merged (in the causal ignorance). The ego is half manifest in the dream state, and its being fully manifest is the waking state. It is the mode or modification of thought (with its latent tendencies) that creates the inner world of dreams in the dream state and the outer world in the waking state. The subtle body, which is the material cause of mind and ego, experiences the three states and also birth and death.

Followed cessation of the self? The mind? The ego?

Or did Nisargadatta Maharaj just have a Beedi-Chapalata... Chapalata is Vasana of a mild type. It lasts for a short time only. There are two kinds of important Chapalatas. There is the Jihva-Chapalata of the tongue where the tongue wants to eat the various things every now and then. It is a form of morbid appetite. Rich people who lead a luxurious life have this form of Chapalata. The other variety is the Upastha-Chapalata wherein the sex Indriyas wants to taste again and again the sexual enjoyment (Sparsa). http://www.sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=884

Question: Baba will you tell us about vasanas? You talked about samskaras. Babaji: Vasanas are also same, like samskara – acquired habits of the mind. So if the mind has acquired a certain habit the person is very likely to be behaving in the same way. Suppose for example I have a student. I shall be giving the student all my teachings based on my experience, ‘You are the immortal soul, you are this, you are that.’ But when such a student would behave based on the acquired habits of his mind – these are also known as the vasanas. Sometimes negativity is very much termed as the vasanas because of these habits only one gets attracted into a particular type of culture, one particular type of activity. So these are all called vasanas. They are all the mind’s practice of acquired habits since time immemorial. You see in this life also, since your childhood you would have brought a basic nature. Unknown to you, you would have developed a particular observation capability, a particular type of understanding capability, like when we give a certain type of talk. If there are ten people based on their vasanas and temperament, ten people might be understanding my talk in ten different ways. So the best understanding capability is required. This called the vasanas. It is very important otherwise I might be telling something else, symbolically, the person might be trying to understand in a different way, symbolically. All these things can happen. So this is all because of the acquired habits of the mind. This is what is called vasanas. https://www.shivarudrabalayogi.org/talks-a-writings-section/6-2007/1222-karma-samskaras-vasanas-and-overcoming-fears

The very definition of vasana includes the concept and word 'habit' - vasana (Sanskrit: "subconscious inclination; conditioning, tendencies, or self-limitations; predispositions and habits" Where habits remain, vasanas remain, and where there are vasanas there is still false self.

Which comes first, being able to rest the mind in the witness to then be able to dissolve the vasanas, or rooting out the vasanas which will then allow the mind to rest progressively deeper in the witness state? Regardless, the self-enquiry method does require effort up to the point of Self-realisation, as was evident in the OP, there is no effortlessness until that point. I don't believe Ramana would ever have contradicted this, except when describing reality from the Absolute perspective. If the mind becomes introverted through enquiry into the source of aham-vritti, the vasanas become extinct, and in the absence of the reflecting medium the phenomenon of reflection, namely, the mind, also disappears being absorbed into the light of the one Reality, the Heart.This is the sum and substance of all that an aspirant needs to know. What is imperatively required of him is an earnest and one-pointed enquiry into the source of aham-vritti. - Ramana Maharshi I'm not convinced Ramana's reference to effortlessness is the equivalent of wu wei, I believe his reference to effortlessness is in terms of the Absolute truth perspective, the "highest truth" that we are "always already the Self," so there is "nothing to be done, no efforts to be made," and that we are "ever-free" in/as the Self, but he tends to qualify these Absolute truth level statements with a conventional truth level prerequisite, for example: - The ever-present Self needs no efforts to be realised, Realisation is already there. Illusion alone is to be removed. To remove illusion though requires effort, specifically it requires that the vasanas are rooted out, and to Ramana this was not a naturally occurring and effortless activity: - A practiser may by long practice gain a glimpse of the Reality. This experience may be vivid for the time being. And yet he will be distracted by the old vasanas and so his experience will not avail him. Such a man must continue his manana and nididhyasana so that all the obstacles may be destroyed. He will then be able to remain permanently in the Real State. - Owing to the fluctuation of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasanas. True, that in the proximity of a great Master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the Master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary. - Experience gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain steady. Efforts must be made to eradicate the vasanas. Otherwise rebirth after death takes place. - Therefore the seeker’s aim must be to drain away the vasanas from the Heart and let no reflection obstruct the Light of Eternal Consciousness. This is achieved by the search for the origin of the ego and by diving into the Heart. This is the direct method for Self-Realisation. I don’t follow Ramana’s self-enquiry method, though I do practise a personal self-enquiry method which does have some similarities, and IME with this personal self-enquiry method into ego I suspect the mind is quite distinct from ego, but I’m not sure about any of this.

It is the removing of ignorance or illusion that takes the effort, what Ramana says of the Self needing no effort is coming from a Self-realised Absolute perspective - to equate what he says about no effort being needed with the idea that there is no effort needed whilst in the unrealised state is to confuse the Absolute level of reality with the conventional level of reality where effort still needs to be made. For example: The ever-present Self needs no efforts to be realised, Realisation is already there. Illusion alone is to be removed. Some say the word from the mouth of the Master removes it instantaneously. Others say that meditation, etc., are necessary for realisation... ... others say it is from reflection; yet others say from one-pointedness and also from samadhi. Though they look different on the surface, ultimately they mean the same - Ramana Maharshi Ramana favoured the method of self-inquiry above all other methods, though he didn't push this preference onto the people around him. Self-inquiry is inevitably an effort, until the point of Self-realisation. There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary. After tasting such Bliss, even once one will repeatedly try to regain it. Having once experienced the Bliss of Peace no one would like to be out of it or engage himself otherwise. -Ramana Maharshi Being the Self requires no effort or aid, but to realise 'being the Self' one has to leave off the wrong identity, ignorance, illusion, ego, and this requires effort and a method. Karma and destiny, I will take his word for it. Is he speaking from the conventional level of reality in your quote, and from the absolute level in the one below? You and I are the same. What I have done is surely possible for all. You are the Self now and can never be anything else. Throw your worries to the wind, turn within and find Peace. - Ramana Maharshi We loosely talk of Self-realization, for lack of a better term. But how can one realize or make real that which alone is real? All we need to do is to give up our habit of regarding as real that which is unreal. All religious practices are meant solely to help us do this. When we stop regarding the unreal as real, then reality alone will remain, and we will be that. - Ramana Maharshi Perhaps when one fully realises this, when ego completely collapses never to be revived, our previous ignorance of reality will be perceived as amusing. Who knows?

Ramana and Papaji have recorded similar responses regarding temporary experiences in the presence of a Guru. Many people have had temporary glimpses of the Self. Sometimes it happens spontaneously, and it is not uncommon for it to happen in the presence of a realised Master. After these temporary glimpses, the experience goes away because there are still thoughts and latent desires which have not been extinguished. The Self will only accept, consume and totally destroy a mind that is totally free from vasanas. (Papaji in Nothing Ever Happened, vol. 3, p. 405) [Though this is rather at odds with his ususal prescription.] And from Ramana - “In the presence of the Guru, Samadhi can occur. To be further established in this state, however, effort is needed.”

An alternative topic title could have been 'the role of the mind in Self-realisation'. Both approaches seem to require 'destroying the mind', but the point at which this happens is the difference. I personally envisage the journey to the heart and into its depth as necessarily being accompanied by the mind, as long as the mind is properly directed by the guru (whether that be the internal or external guru). Ultimately the mind and the ego in the form we know them must both collapse, and IME it is the mind which acquiesces to this necessity, and takes the necessary steps to actualise this as the ego is not capable of making this decision or accepting this reality.

Thomas Jefferson You are a silent genius, a loner who prefers the company of books to the company of men. Although you are not social, you are fascinated by the working of society and the mind. Jefferson used these traits to become an accomplished lawyer, but these days you could go into any field that requires an interest in human psychology. You could even write internet quizzes! You are able to see past emotional baggage to identify the issues behind negative habits and customs and can be almost scarily intuitive. You are a trailblazer, but sometimes your ideas are so ahead of the trend that they seem shocking to others. Relax, time will prove you are on the right path. Trust in your own intelligence and inner knowledge and fight for your ideals.

I perceive ‘ego’ as we know it as misguided and immature, a damaged aspect of ourselves blindly churning out self-protecting and self-serving storylines. But with a lot of (appropriate) effort I believe this misguided ego consciousness can be refined in the heart, and then brought up to the UDT where it can be transformed into authentic compassion, and can take its rightful place in the service of the True Self.

D: “Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually? M.: “No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.” Ramana Maharshi illustrated this by the following story: A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that the Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables. The King waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the words were. The Premier said that it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be initiated by the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate him. Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the Minister later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right. The Minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for him to say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a page close by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not obeyed. The order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a rage and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was immediately done. The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation required by the King. “How?” asked the King. The Minister replied, “The order was the same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered, the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect. Similarly with mantras.” http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/teachings/%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93/

These are two very different approaches to dealing with ego, Ramana says examine ego (the wave), Papaji says identify yourself as the Self (ocean) not the wave (ego). To me the teacher and the disciple are looking in different directions. “The Self is pure consciousness and non-dual. It cannot say ‘I’. All that is required is only to look closely and the ghost [ego] vanishes. So long as one does not look closely it continues to give trouble. But when one looks for it, it is found to not exist – Ramana You have to identify yourself and say, "I am the ocean." ... You have to be ocean itself. You are the ocean. When a wave arises [ego], you be under the wave – Papaji

I completely agree, sounds simple but seems to be one of the hardest things in the world to do, because it involves directly facing pain.