Bindi

IMO in duality the only thing that can be affected is duality. Examining what constitutes the dual self, the emotional hijackers, the mind, the ego, will ultimately cause the false dual self to collapse, and what is left will be the True Self, with a mind that has become wise, and with self serving ego transformed into compassion.

The body is insentient and cannot say ‘I’. The Self is pure consciousness and non-dual. It cannot say ‘I’. No one says ‘I’ in sleep. What is the ego then? It is something intermediate between the inert body and the Self. If sought for it vanishes like a ghost. You see, a man imagines that there is something by his side in darkness; it may be some dark object. If he looks closely the ghost is not to be seen, but some dark object which he could identify as a tree or a post, etc. If he does not look closely the ghost strikes terror in a person. All that is required is only to look closely and the ghost vanishes. The ghost was never there. So also with ego. It is an intangible link between the body and Pure Consciousness. It is not real. So long as one does not look closely it continues to give trouble. But when one looks for it, it is found to not exist. Ramana Maharshi

Your link doesn't seem to be working, it just returns me to this page.

Does anyone know if this quote (from post #33 above) concurs with the general Neidan idea of the mysterious pass and beyond?

In a way the true Self can be intuited in our feeling of lack and incompleteness in life. Recognising this incompleteness started me looking for a way to relieve it, and has kept me looking ever since. Looking backwards to discern and deconstruct the layers of false self is my active choice, not really a forgetting of who I really am. For me it just seems to be the most direct way back to True Self.

Thanks for answering. And do you perceive 'the immortal' as a separate entity from yourself?

There is an irony in Mooji saying that he doesn't know anything about neo-advaita, and then discussing neo-advaita and the differences between it and advaita vedanta for the next hour. And it is also quite ironical that Mooji is himself listed as a neo-advaitan in many places including wikipedia. I do suspect that neo-advaita might be a dirty word, perhaps radical non-dualism as a descriptor might take over.

See edit above. I do see some value in comparing systems, I have heard it said that at the top of the mountain the view is the same no matter in which direction you look or some such thing, for myself being able to hear what the view is from the top of the mountain works to clarify what I am aiming for, and at the same time gives me feedback on what stage I am at in the climb. To reduce the stage I referred to in my post as from just one more system or one more path and not a necessary stage overall is to my mind a blinkered view.

Number 2 of the "Five Opening Functions" developed through Buddhist ​internal qigong - The opening of the Heavenly Eye is associated with the ability to visualize a screen in the forehead on which one can see images of things far away, as well as the ability to see through objects and into the human body. sounds like Jerry Allen Johnsons developing the Shen and opening the UDT stage in medical qigong: THE UPPER DANTIAN AND INTUITIVE AWARENESS As the Shen is developed and the Upper Dantian is opened, spiritual communications may reveal themselves in a flash of an image or as a vision in the mind's eye. These images and visions are sometimes very brief and abstract. Correctly interpreting these images takes practice, as the images streaming from the Yuan Shen must be distinguished from the dreamlike wanderings of the subconscious and cannot be interpreted easily by the logical mind. Chi Kung doctors must be able to distinguish between true and false messages reflected through their visions. True visions are received from the doctor's divine connection to the Dao or Wuji, while false visions reflect messages from the subconscious. The ability to accurately separate these visions is another example of "knowing without knowing." http://ichikung.com/html/dantians.php Learning to interpret these images would be working on one of the aspects of the Buddhist Qigong #3 (2). Opening of the Wisdom Eye, the ability to analyze what is seen. What the Buddhist Qigong system then describes beyond Johnson's description of medical qigong in this link is very interesting.

I think I realise my error, and it is an error I often make in this sort of discussion, I believe that what you are saying is from the perspective of the Absolute level where there is only the eternal witness, whereas I am focused on the conventional level and my identification with a false self and its deconstruction. I think we're just looking in different directions.

You equate Paul Hedderman's "What's looking" with the eternal witness that doesn't have any desires, fears and likes, so it is already free. But being free already and without any desire, why would it be "looking" for itself in the first place?

If Yang expanded till there's nothing left to expand, wouldn't that need to be balanced by Yin contracting till there's nothing left to contract? Not just one or the other?

LOL

I think just dropping the mind is impossible because the mind is so extremely intertwined with the ego. I can't see how it is possible to drop mind+ego without a whole lot of detangling first. Very likely just focusing on dropping the mind will leave the ego intact and running the show. Ramana experienced extreme fear thinking he was about to die at 16, but was able to overcome this fear by using his own logic to distinguish between an abiding Self and his body that he believed was dying. He describes being shocked by the fear of death initially, and his solution seems to have broken the mind/ego/body delusion for a moment. But this event was I believe just the beginning of his search, it inspired a passion in him to know Self from then on, as he claims that after his death experience he still "knew nothing of freedom from births or bondage." In effect I believe he became an avid seeker.

He seems to be saying that what we are looking for in terms of happiness/enlightenment doesn't exist, and this is his realisation. I am who I am right now, which is absolutely no different to who I was a moment ago when I still believed enlightenmnet was possible, I am merely unburdened of that one delusion, and freed from seeking which is a useless acivity. How does the eternal witness relate to this?

Isn't 'that which is looking' the seeker, ie. the false ego-self?

Do you mean a deliberate transmission of light from Paul Hedderman? Or is it just something you perceive. Why do you think a transmission of light or of consciousness from another person is grounds for calling off the search?

When you say the immortal, do you mean the golden embryo? Do you perceive 'the immortal' as a separate entity from yourself?

Just like how the stick used to stir a burning pyre will eventually get burnt, mind itself will eventually get destroyed by constant inquiry culminating in self realization. - Ramana Maharshi

Neo-Advaita or radical Advaita seems to have begun with the death of Papaji, who was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi. Ramana promoted a path which was his interpretation of Advaita Vedanta, in which he recognised a lot of work had to be done to become Self-realised, though he was perhaps less scholarly initially than his predescessors because he had come to his own Self-realisation following no established path. In a very real sense he merely chose to couch his realisations in the language of Advaita Vedanta. “There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary. (…) Effort is necessary up to the state of realisation. Even then the Self should spontaneously become evident. Otherwise happiness will not be complete. Up to that state of spontaneity there must be effort in some form or another.”-Ramana Maharshi When Ramana Maharshi died, he named no successors, no awakened or enlightened disciples, and no teachers. Nonetheless a number of his disciples did start teaching, and one of them was Papaji. This is where things seem to have started unravelling. Neo-Advaita has been traced to what Papaji said to his disciples. Papaji pointed only to ultimate truth of the Advaita Vedanta tradition, that one's own Self is already enlightened and free. "For Papaji, the goal was the realisation of the self; the illusory realm of relative reality was ultimately irrelevant.” He also "told, inferred, or allowed hundreds of individuals to believe they were fully enlightened simply because they'd had one, or many, powerful experiences of awakening," and it was these students who then initiated the neo-Advaita, or satsang movement. Papaji doesn’t speak well of these teachers though, he claims he sent them out to bring people to him, not to teach the people themselves. The hallmarks of Neo Advaita are to drop the mind story and call off the search, because we are the Self already. This is the ultimate truth, and with some mental gymnastics the Advaitan understanding of non-duality is realised and espoused but critics of Neo-Advaita assert that this realisation is without any of the depth of true Self realisation, which in Advaitan terms requires the obliteration of our tendencies and desires first, which in turn requires personal effort. To do this, I would suggest that an active and discerning mind is required, armed with correct knowledge, as Advaitan Self-enquiry is based on an active discrimination process. Western spirituality seems particularly drawn to simplified forms of Eastern spirituality, where one Awakening experience is enough to declare oneself Realised or Awakened and ready to teach, with none of the checks or balances that the older established Eastern traditions have put in place.

The term Nanzong, or Southern lineage, was coined by Xiao Tingzhi (fl. 1260), but the earliest lineage was probably fonnulated by a student of the Fujianese Bai Yuchan (1194- ca. 1227), who traced the tradition from Zhang Boduan ~iajffij (fl. 11th c.) through Shi Tai ::E"~ (d. 1158), Xue Shi (d. 1175/1191), and Chen Nan (d. 1213) to Bai Yuchan. The tradition developed during the Northern Song in the regions around Chengdu, Sichuan, where Zhang Boduan was employed as a minor official. This tradition adopted the Zhong-Lti tradition, Peng Xiao's (d. 955) Cantongqi commentary, and the fire-phasing terminology of jindan. Practices included earlier neidan traditions, Buddhist quietiSm, and thunder rituals. This tradition and its deities remained a hallmark of Sichuan nudan into the 20th century. Beizong , or Northern lineage, refers to the lineage created by Xiao Tingzhi. Xiao divides the lineage from a tradition beginning several generations before Lord Lao through the lord to Liu Haichan (fl. 1031). who is named the teacher of Zhang Boduan and Wang Chongyang (1113-1170). In Xiao's description, Zhang went on to form the Nanzong, while Wang and his seven disciples formed the Beizong. (Esposito 1997: 161) The difference between these lineages rests on the relative priority of xing and ming cultivation; both schools agree that both xing and ming must be cultivated. (See Definitions of Terms below.) Liu Cunyan reads this distinction as a difference between solo and dual cultivation. (Liu 1984: 184-196) http://www.world-news-research.com/NeidanTantra.html

Just trying to get my head around this, I read this article http://goldenelixir.com/jindan/nanzong_beizong.html which pretty well distinguishes between Northern and Southern lineages of Neidan and their intrinsic difference in perception of immediate versus gradual realisation: In the Beizong mode of Neidan self-cultivation, the immediate (dun) realization of one's Nature is equivalent to attaining the Elixir. Beizong places emphasis on Xing (one's inner Nature, which is innately perfected), and accordingly focuses on practices meant to purify one's mind ("emptying the mind," "extinguishing the mind," "ending thoughts"). The underlying doctrines make use of Buddhist notions and terms — in particular, of the doctrine of "seeing one's Nature" (jianxing). The Nanzong mode of Neidan self-cultivation, instead, consists of a gradual (jian) process that focuses on the cultivation of Ming at the initial stage, but is concluded with the cultivation of Xing. The Nanzong mode of cultivation places initial emphasis on Ming (one's life as an individual being, including one's "destiny" or function in existence as a whole, and one's endowment of "vital force"), and focuses on practices that intend to compound the Elixir by purifying the main components of the human being: Essence, Breath, and Spirit (jing, qi, shen). These practices follow the sequence Essence → Breath → Spirit → Dao, and consist of a process typically arranged into three main stages, the last of which lies in cultivating one's Xing, or inner Nature. The Beizong/Quanzhen cultivation mode is defined as "first Xing then Ming" (xianxing houming), while the Nanzong cultivation mode is defined as "first Ming then Xing" (xianming houxing). ​

From a very practical perspective, this is Medical Chi Kung's take on Yuan Qi: The Lower Dantian is often called "the Sea of Chi (Qi)." It is the place where Chi (Qi) is housed, the Mingmen Fire is aroused, the Kidney Yin and Yang Chi (Qi) are gathered, and the Yuan Qi is stored. Also called Source Chi (Qi) or Original Chi (Qi), the Yuan Qi is the foundation of all the other types of Chi (Qi) in the body. The Yuan Qi is closely linked with the Prenatal Essence (Yuan Jing). Together, the Yuan Qi and Yuan Jing determine our overall health, vitality, stamina, and life span. The Yuan Qi is the force behind the activity of all the organs and energies in the body. It is closely related to the Mingmen and works to provide body heat. The body's Yuan Qi is the catalytic agent for transforming the food we eat and the air we breathe into Postnatal Chi (Qi). It also facilitates the production of Blood. Yuan Qi is housed in the Lower Dantian, and flows to all the internal organs and channels via the Triple Burners. Yuan Qi is said to enter the Twelve Primary Channels (the body's twelve major energy pathways) through the Yuan points (sometimes called Source points) in acupuncture theory. ... In ancient China, the concept of an individual's Virtue (De) and his or her Destiny (Ming) were closely connected. Destiny (associated with the Yuan Jing, Chi (Qi) and Shen) was given by Heaven at birth and stored away in the individual's Mingmen area between the Kidneys. The individual's Ming becomes the spark of life and the dynamic potential existing behind his or her thoughts and actions. Although the subtle impulses emanating from the individual's Ming are generally hidden from the conscious mind, through Meditations a deeper realm of understanding can be intuitively discovered and accessed. It is up to the individual to consistently act in accordance with his or her Ming throughout life. This action is based on the individual's conscious use of his or her Intention (Yi). The intention to remain congruent with the "Will and Intent of Heaven" (Zhi Yi Tian) is what gives the individual Virtue (De). It is through the development of his or her Virtue that the individual establishes a healthy relationship with the Dao, Heaven and the spiritual world. The Mingrnen is the root of Yuan Qi, and therefore determines life and death. The Mingmen provides one third of the body's "True Fire," supplies the heat for the Triple Burners, and is responsible for stabilizing the Kidneys and Lower Dantian. This anatomical area is sometimes known as the Back Dantian, or the back gate of the Second Chakra. ... All Chi Kung training begins with a focus on the Lower Dantian. In the beginning stages of Medical Chi Kung training, the doctor will encourage students to focus their mind and breath into the Lower Dantian. The purpose of this training is to gather the body's Yuan Qi into the Lower Dantian (called "returning to the source") to strengthen the foundational root of the body's energy. Medical Chi Kung practitioners strive to gather and balance the Yin and Yang energy within the Lower Dantian. In ancient China, the union of Yin and Yang energy within the Lower Dantian was called "Dragon and Tiger swirling in the winding river." The ancient Daoist shamans believed that the "vital essence spirit" always appears in a bright white light energy within the Lower Dantian. It is dangerous for Medical Chi Kung students to bypass the discipline of Lower Dantian cultivation training in an attempt to move quickly into the more advanced intuitive and psychic training of the Upper Dantian (Shen Kung). Such an approach to training may lead to Chi (Qi) deviations and cause emotional instability. http://ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

Advaita Vedanta is more authentic than neo advaita. Neo advaita says call off the search, you are already 'it'. Advaita Vedanta says keep going until you discover the true Self. It is a shorter road to say I am already 'it' than to painstakingly remove all the 'I am not it' bits.