Bindi

I’d say you can consciously access and deal with issues and fears that are subconscious, there are a number of avenues that can be taken to do this, though every method would take time, many years, even your method of ‘diving deep’ must take time. Do you think your method is just faster, or the only way of accessing subconscious material? Regarding your diving deep method, are you saying that in the midst of enjoying the sublime peace and bliss of nirvikalpa samadhi you somehow uncover subconscious issues and fears there? Or do you uncover subconscious issues and fears in a different ocean?

Ramana also contradicts himself at times, nonetheless I find his overarching perception and advice to be sound.

I will quote Ramana as my respected authority in this: “In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi one is not free from vasanas and does not, therefore, attain mukti." “Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas, he will not attain salvation.”

I understand your ocean analogy. I don't personally like the idea of sort of passing out from lack of energy flow from going deeper than your level of consciousness allows, and I wonder why you wouldn't just work on raising consciousness first and then diving. But this aside, yes, you can build up from your ocean analogy.

It was the "no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc" as a consequence of being in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi that made me think of neo-advaita. Wouldn't advaita require that these issues be addressed in order to realise sahaja samadhi?

Jeff, saying "The workout analogy was in response to your "why" in followup" doesn't make what you meant by your workout analogy any clearer whatsoever. I'd still like you to clarify your workout analogy specifically, as I still don't know what you meant, and I would like to. edit: rereading your post I see you also mention it was an extension to your original analogy, but this doesn't explain it to me either.

No fair enough, I might not be getting your analogies, what then did you actually mean by "If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn..."?

True enough. From the same article: C: Bhagavan, you said yesterday that there exists in the human body a hole as small as a pinpoint, from which consciousness always bubbles out to the body. Is it open or shut? B: It is always shut, being the knot of ignorance which ties the body to consciousness. When the mind drops away in the temporaryKevala Nirvikalpa it opens but shuts again. In Sahaja it remains always open. C: How is it during the experience of 'I-I' consciousness? B: This consciousness is the key which opens it permanently. I would reckon that Ramana being so adamant that there is something to continue searching for immediately disqualifies him as a neo-advaitan himself.

Bud, nirvana is not an impermanent state to be fondly remembered and enjoyed occasionally, it is an absolute and final achievement that is so very much more profound than this.

I don't think this samadhi or the desciption of it is nonsense, I am more questioning it's value in furthering spiritual growth. From your perspective, was there a gain beyond the feelings at the time of experiencing it?

If you're talking about confronting false identifications until it hurts, then I would agree. If you mean pushing energy until it hurts or burns somehow then I wouldn't agree, as I find that energy either naturally flows into the cleared spaces, or occasionally needs to be directed in a gentle way. In neidan terms, which is the only Daoist form I am interested in, silence and peace don't create or fill Dan Tians, and don't lead to the creation of the golden or immortal body, so no, I don't resonate with this approach. I agree though that it may have great value for some. "Do only what has to be done and then remain at one" - How long is a piece of string? How much work has to be done before you can remain at one? Why would anyone do more than this? But we might differ in how much we think needs to be done.

These two realisations and the consequences that flow from them are remarkably similar to neo-advaita thinking, which I would also see as a spiritual trap and a dead end.

6. If one perforates the surface of the vase, Whatever holes are made in whichever directions, Through those and in precisely those directions Light will shine, as is its nature to. 7. At the moment when the vajra-like samadhi Is able to obliterate the vase, At that very moment the light burning inside Will shine throughout the reaches of all space. Vajra-like samadhi is at the end of the ten bhumis. Is the state of nirvikalpa samadhi one in which the ten bhumi's can be perfected?

Jetsun, can you tell me where to find more on this perspective of Nagarjuna?

Ramana?

अनुवाद भद्रं व

If there can be no work done in the state of Nirvikalpa samadhi, and the work of letting go of ignorance has to be done previous to it, then the value of this state seems to be reduced to me. And then if the work that has to be done outside of Nirvikalpa samadhi is done properly, and you realise that you are the ocean not a diver, then there is still no reason to enter this state, because you have realised this truth while outside of Nirvikalpa samadhi.

gatito, can you give me a link to another definition?

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply? Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self? Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?

I found this amongst many other gems from Jigme Lingpa

Not Lao Zi, I'm very much a Daoist beginner and am not well read in Daoist texts, but there is this from Chou Lu-Ching. General Instructions for the Twelve Sleep Practices of Mount Hua From the Marrow of the Red Phoenix http://thelaughingidiot.yolasite.com/resources/HS12Shuikung.pdf Perhaps someone else can quote Lao Zi?

I would agree with this, complete acceptance of this or that, perhaps the problem is that it's so easy to accept the good stuff, but so much harder to accept the negative feelings/issues/thoughts so I feel they tend to get ignored. To that extent my insistence on facing the dark in this thread is really just an attempt to balance the imbalance.

My approach is to start in my own back yard with the effort to deeply and authentically heal myself (and my family).

If one believes (as I do) that we have a multitude of past lives, then I have been all of them, and I carry all their pain which is intolerable for my mind to recognise, except very slowly, in bite size pieces, under direction. But even in the material world without recourse to reincarnation, there are billions of people suffering, how could all that suffering not affect our world, materially, and energetically?