Bindi

… One more dodgy guru with anger and greed issues, and an inflated ego regarding himself and the students whom he has proclaimed to be buddhas. It will never end, but TDB is a great space to expose them.

What are subtle energy channels, they’re not physical matter, not body, but they’re also not mind. More likely perhaps to be explained by quantum physics which seems to accept that odd things go on. Can mind be informed by subtle energies? If yes, then mind becomes much more than brain based, but minds basic mode might be brain based.

I think it’s a grave error to foreclose on relationships before the heart has been purified, you’d be left with so much unresolved baggage and karma. Say the heart is part of the dantian irrigation system, a cold heart isn’t going to support water flowing, nor will it support what else is required for authentic energetic growth. Unhealed, there will always be a bug deep within the system. IME one can work directly on the heart (chakra and MDT) but there will be issues that only appear in relationship even when everything that can be resolved personally has been, to be specific, relationship accentuates how I perceive others and how I perceive myself in a way that nothing else can. Once all of that is sorted, maybe there is value in letting relationships go, maybe not. Perhaps I’m in the camp of becoming more human and accepting all of my humanity, as opposed to reducing my overall humanity and delineating only part of myself as ‘spiritually’ acceptable.

Not palatable to any human methinks. What is the place of normal human love in neidan. Do we really need to let that go, or can we arrive at a love that is more mature?

I voted ‘other’, IMO the usefulness of visualisation is entirely dependent on getting the timing and what is being visualised and it’s purpose right, and the chances of these three things coming together are very very low without some sort of personalised psychic guidance. Doing a visualisation without proper guidance can make something happen, but to my understanding what it makes happen can be entirely useless in the grand scheme of things, if not detrimental to the authentic energy body that is the ultimate achievement.

I have read that the External Yellow Court Scripture is considered to be the first internal alchemy text, and that almost all Taoist internal alchemy texts have been modelled on it. I have access to three different translations, one by Jane Huang (actually her father’s translation) in The Primordial Breath: An Ancient Chinese Way of Prolonging Life through Breath Control Volume 2, one by Imios Archangelis and Miaoyu Lanying in Jade Writing, available online Here and one by Stuart Alve Olson in Yellow Court: The Exalted One’s External Illumination Scripture - Attributed to Lao Zi -. The external Yellow Court scripture is assumed to be written by a scholar, as it uses strictly seven words per line, no mean feat apparently in Chinese. It is divided into three chapters, I will follow Huang’s paragraphs. Chapter 1.1 太上黃庭外景玉經上 太上閑居作七言， 解說身形及諸神， 上有黃庭下關元， 後有幽闕前命門。 呼吸廬間入丹田， 玉池清水灌靈根， 審能修之 可長存。 The Exalted One’s Scripture on the External Illumination of the Yellow Court Upper Chapter of the Scripture, Part One. Above there is the Yellow Court and below the Pass of Origination. Behind there is the Secret Watchtower and in front the Gate of Life. Breathe in the spaces of the Thatched Hut so to enter into the Elixir field. The pure water of the Jade Pool pours onto the Spiritual Root. If you are able to examine and cultivate this you can be long preserved. - Olson T’ai Shang, the Supreme Superior [Lao Tzu , N.T.], in leisure living, composed the [following] seven-word verses to explain the body and the spirits. Up above, there is the Yellow Court and down below there is Kuan Yuan, the Primordial Pass. In the rear is You Ch’ueh, the Dark Mysterious Gate Towers [the kidneys, N.T.], and in the front, there is Ming Men, the Gate of Life. Inhalations and exhalations are done through the Hut and enter into Tan T’ien, the Elixir Field. The clean and clear water of Yu Ch’ih, the Jade pond, is to irrigate Ling Ken, the Miraculous Root. Whoever can carefully nourish that may enjoy long life. - Huang High Sovereign, residing in peace, wrote a seven-word scripture, to tell the secrets how to enhance the individual form and spirit. Yellow Court is located above, Original Pass is located below. Quiet Watchtower is behind, Life Gate is at the front. Let your breath precipitate between three joined Dan Tian, and clear waters of Jade Pool irrigate Spirit Root. Practice constantly, to achieve longevity. - Archangelis and Lanying

I don’t disagree with you that a person appears in the middle dantian, and that this process starts in the red spectrum.

Agreed It seems very likely to me that this concept might be the brainchild of some alchemically challenged dufus

Defining terms is so important. What I mean by polarities is subtle internal Yin/ Yang energies, it makes me wonder what Apech actually meant.

Interestingly I’ve been cultivating the polarities for decades

Thanks for your translation TT. To be honest, whether it’s a good idea or not, I would only take my personal experience as valid anyway, all end points are suspect until I myself arrive at the end point.

So the translation could be endlessness or ‘ceaselessness’ as opposed to “limitless space”? Adjective 無間 having no gaps in between physically; close; hard to separate 合作無間{jiàn} to have good cooperation having no gaps in between temporally; ceaseless; uninterrupted

Since I’m not following modern mainstream neidan I can fortunately ignore the Buddhist overlay which I feel has no place in inner alchemy. Again is this Buddhist overlay? To get to a Buddhist conclusion neidan has to be minimised to be only a path that falls away once trodden. From the Yellow Court External Illumination Scripture the end stage is “Departing from the Heavenly Gate it enters into limitless space”. “It” the immortal spirit, departing from the head, entering into limitless space. An entity within limitless space, but not disappearing into emptiness in some nondual fashion as Indian tradition would have it. And if joining the emptiness (and stopping the orbit in order to join the emptiness) can be discarded as Buddhist, then the place of the MCO becomes something to be discovered, not quoted as a foregone conclusion from old corrupted texts.

I personally find it unlikely, but I am bound by my own previous quote to allow that it might be a possibility Good point TT. With just a moments thought I must agree, the dantians are there, but I would insist that they are in a state of disrepair, cracked, unsealed, silted up, unflowing etc. I’m very sure filling is the way to go as long as we’re talking about yuan jing, yuan qi and yuan Shen. As for “joining the emptiness”, I don’t think we can assume what that might mean until we experience it, because 99.999% sure our assumption will be wrong. My first question would be are you sure that “joining the emptiness” isn’t a Buddhist add-on? Is 'the full development' of the top DT the last stage, or is joining the emptiness the last stage? Is it the MCO that fills the dantians? What if the MCO is a way of cycling the Yuan energies through the system from top to bottom, like the water cycle of rain > evaporation > cloud etc. A static system might not be dynamic, and if nothing else a functioning subtle body must surely be dynamic.

If qigong can create and fill dantians, then it would be valuable. As far as I can see it, having the dantians leak-proof and filled and operating to their full potential is a fundamental requirement, upon which the “orbit” can then operate. Seeing initiating the MCO as the only valid step seems shortsighted. I recall someone once saying that he had initiated the MCO but it was empty, it felt like he was just spinning his wheels, I would take this as not having developed the dantians first, substance is missing. Developing the three dantians successfully would in itself be rare as, they are very complex systems. To refer to dantian development as ‘Just qigong’ seems unnecessarily dismissive. I can imagine that after the three dantians have been fully developed the orbit self-initiates, in the meantime more dantian development is required for me, not empty MCO’s. If you had completed dantian development first, I don’t think you would be so dismissive of it, so right now I’m assuming you haven’t.

Say there’s a model of the blood vessels and lymph vessels, or any of the organs, can you really call these models wrong? Or a model of something invisible like a virus, why would this model be wrong? To all intents and purposes it correctly represents the actual thing it’s modelling, I believe the same is possible of the subtle energy body, a functional model is possible though it might be two steps away from the reality of it instead of one, as the subtle energy body model will be in a more metaphorical language. I gave my personal take earlier on this thread https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53700-what-exactly-is-neidaninternal-alchemy/?do=findComment&comment=994095

@cobie & @taoisttexts (and freeform it seems) I’d suggest if you think yuan jing > yuan qi is just a theoretical model, it’s only because you haven’t actually come across this subtle essence and it’s conversion, not that it doesn’t exist. In the words of a wise man, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

I think this would be my favourite analogy, asserting that a seed is perfect versus cultivating that seed directly to fulfill its innate potential.

In your view what is the benefit of soul evolution?

Isn’t this just your belief? Or have you experienced yourself as an individual soul merged permanently into an ocean of spirit? And even if this was your reality, it doesn’t follow automatically that this is the spiritual purpose of our lives, you might have missed the point of life entirely, who knows? Some belief systems propose that an individual soul remains, I don’t think you can make an absolute statement about it either way except to say this is what you believe. If I were a Christian I could say you have to give your life to Jesus to be saved, and you will be an individual soul in heaven with God afterwards, it doesn’t make it true though.

Yogapedia states “The causal body is also known by the Sanskrit term, karana sharira. It is composed of karma and samskara, which are, respectively, the record of the yogi's actions in all states of existence and the experiential impressions and imprints on the mind.” I agree that samskara and karma need to be cleared, I would see them as blockages in the subtle channels, more the question is what happens when all the subtle channels are cleared, up to and including the central channel, whatever this fully operational subtle energy system looks like I’m calling the immortal body. Quote The tantras describe an impressive total of 72,000 fine channels, which together with the lotus centers and the three main channels form the “subtle” body of the yogi. In an “ordinary mortal” this network is blocked. The energies cannot flow freely, the chakras are “dead”, the “wheels” are motionless, the perception of spiritual phenomena limited. One also speaks of a “knotting”. Now it is the first task of the yogi to untie these knots in himself or in his pupil, to free and to clean the blocked channels in all directions so as to fill the whole body with divine powers. http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-07.htm

Ancient and Modern interpretation: [Read “Siddhis—Supernormal powers” first] Vyāsa says, The difference is that Samadhi is not the aim of neidan, creating an immortal subtle energy body is the aim of neidan. Two different paths, two different attitudes to siddhis and never the twain shall meet.