Bindi

I'm starting to think that both streams might be as important as each other, two different energies, one downwards, the other upwards, in an orbit that complement each other. A balance.

Have you ever read some of the stuff Jesus supposedly said about the Pharisees? And he was the model Christian, but apparently he was allowed to have an opinion about the people he saw around him. Not that I claim to be a Christian anyway. Matt 23:13-36 13-14 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in.[b] 15 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You travel over land and sea to win one follower. And when you have done so, you make that person twice as fit for hell as you are. 16 You are in for trouble! You are supposed to lead others, but you are blind. You teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the temple. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gold in the temple. 17 You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the altar. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gift on the altar. 19 Are you blind? Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Anyone who swears by the altar also swears by everything on it.21 And anyone who swears by the temple also swears by God, who lives there. 22 To swear by heaven is the same as swearing by God’s throne and by the one who sits on that throne. 23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel. 25 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean. 27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You’re like tombs that have been whitewashed.[c] On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 That’s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good. 29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell? 34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35 That’s why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah’s son Zechariah,[d] the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

An example of an actual Christian mystic and ascetic, “St. Seraphim’s life consisted chiefly of prayer,” in a hermitage, partaking of the Eucharist on Saturday’s and feast days (until the day he considered himself unworthy). As a hermit he was “tempted by the spirit of darkness” which could only “be overcome by prayer”. He became known as a miracle worker and healer, capable of healing extreme physical conditions with a single word, and taught that the goal of Christian life was to do good works done for Christ that lead to the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. I have never heard of a physical healing that Jeff has performed and I have asked, I have never heard of an authenticated miracle that he has performed and I have asked, he has never mentioned the importance of prayer or the Eucharist, he never mentions the necessity of doing good works for Christ, and he never mentions that this is how to acquire the Holy Spirit. He does on the other hand talk about light bodies and light transmission an awful lot, and initiate anyone who wants into an ecstatic kundalini adventure which takes mere months to achieve, no prayer needed, no good works needed, not even a Christian belief is necessary, polytheism is absolutely acceptable. Jeff is no Christian mystic, even though he believes in a gnostic Jesus, this does not qualify him as a Christian mystic. Quotes from http://www.symeon-anthony.info/StSeraphimSarov/StSeraphimSarov.htm

Look, if you want to be involved in that, that's your issue, but mystical Christianity it aint, and I would challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate in what way any of this could for a moment be imagined as mystical Christianity.

I believe you focus on kundalini practices. I think your ‘light transmission’ is a kundalini practice. ‘Lighting someone’s candle’ is activating their kundalini. You’re not the first to do this, and nor will you be the last. There is clearly a place for it amongst people who want to go down that road for various reasons (eg., MIME), though I personally don’t think it is valuable to cultivate kundalini directly, and I cite Ramana’s views on this, not Western narrow-mindedness. But my personal view on the value of kundalini activation is not my issue here, my underlying issue is you claiming kundalini activation and merging to be mystical Christianity (or Rainbow Body, or Buddhist light body, or Daoist light body, or Rigpa, or Bodhicitta, or The Holy Spirit, or any of the other high end experiences that you cite). How many Christians mystical or otherwise do you know that identify their highest self as a sexy Blonde Female and encourage others to visualise them as this if they can’t see it directly, who directly manipulate other’s kundalini energy, who work with other’s chakras, who invoke a pantheon of deities and entities both Christian and non-Christian to be present, and who merge astral energies with others during light transmissions in internet chat rooms? I don’t see how you can in all honesty identify yourself as a Christian mystic, when the only Christian bit left is Jesus, and a decidedly gnostic Jesus at that, who believes and says the decidedly gnostic Christian things that you believe.

Light Transmission is directly associated with kundalini energy flows, and a kundalini connection between two or more people is not prayer. Prayer is not associated with kundalini, and Christ or the Father do not communicate with kundalini. This whole argument is just so futile, Jeff's transmission has parked itself here and continues to be couched in holy words, both Christian and Buddhist, and those that fall for it will apparently defend his nonsense to the end.

PSALM 78:21 When the Lord heard them, he was very angry; his fire broke out against Jacob, and his wrath rose against Israel ISAIAH 66:16 For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord. Luke 12,49-51"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50"But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;… LUKE 9:54-56 54When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" 55But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

I disagree that Mystical Christianity would ever be associated with light transmission or merging, or with any gnostic version of Jesus whatsoever. A Christian mystic would seek a direct personal relationship with Jesus, but through prayer and contemplation, probably through the Eucharist, probably as a renunciate, and perhaps through a Mystical Christian community. But a Christian Mystic who was drawn to light transmission and gnostic writings would surely renounce Christian mysticism in favour of Christian Gnosticism. Surely if it looks like a gnostic, and sounds like a gnostic, it probably is a gnostic. I understand you might be uncomfortable with some gnostic beliefs and practices, but you can’t just claim to be a mystical Christian when you actually practice gnostic Christianity. You never quote Christian mystics, but only Christian gnostics, as well as Christian texts that you imagine refer to light bodies, and Buddhist texts that tend to refer to light bodies. You have a current thread about Light Bodies, and I referred earlier to your thread about transmission, these are all gnostic topics. What do you think mystical Christian beliefs entail?

"Transmission is a component of many traditions, but it a major component of the inner (or mystical) aspects of the gnostic Christian tradition. Transmissions can be "sent" by divine beings and also masters or adepts of the tradition. There are two main types of transmission. The lower form is at the level of the "mind" and is often called a mindtransmission. The higher form is at the level of the heart (or inner heart) and is often called a "light" transmission." http://thedaobums.com/topic/31514-transmission-in-christian-mysticism/#entry474399 Why should I not believe you are gnostic when you describe your transmission as in the gnostic Christian tradition? Also you defer to the gnostic Malachi to answer my question. Also of course you quote the gnostic gospel of Thomas all the time. So quite simply I was led to believe you are gnostic, and TBH I'm surprised that you have disagreed, I thought you self identified as gnostic after reading Malachi. At least if I have assumed, there was a fairly solid basis upon which to hang my assumptions.

Hi T_I, I think I figured it out, I gather Kundalini is synonymous with the Holy Spirit in Christian gnosticism, and being a Christian gnostic (amongst other things) Jeff is never likely to stop believing that they are the same thing. I had thought this before in relation to Malachi's beliefs, and though I started this line of enquiry previously in one of Jeff's threads I never got an answer from him and I let it go. I was reminded of it today while reading Karen's quoted gnostic article, 'Christ and the Kundalini' http://www.sol.com.au/kor/8_01.htm

This level seems to be rarely discussed in Tibetan Buddhism (or any Buddhism for that matter), but it is the level I'm interested in, and why I tend to pursue Hindu Yoga approaches instead. Is Dzogchen considered to be superior perhaps, a more direct path or so? Another question I have along the same lines, where does the Tibetan Buddhist concept of ajna as the end point fit in, again it's never mentioned in dzogchen discussion, or any Buddhist discussion I've come across.

This is part of an article that was posted here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39085-what-is-the-meaning-of-siddhis-or-special-powers/page-3#entry640591, it seemed so relevant to this thread that I wanted to post it here. "We consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . ." "Ignorance is a major obstacle on the path" In this article the author considered greater scientific knowledge of subtle energies to be particuly useful in order to not fall into the potential spiritual trap of specifically cultivating "Dibba-cakkhu (clairvoyance), Dibba-sota (clairaudience), Mano-Maya-Kaya (projection of the ‘astral body’) and other paranormal powers" as "to those not yet fully emancipated from worldly delusion they can become attachment-forming faculties, and as such have to be guarded against and overcome in the struggle for Nibbanna. In the Buddhist view, one who embarks on concentration exercises to obtain supernormal powers (Iddhi) is doing so with the wrong intention and at great danger to himself. If all power corrupts, supernormal power can corrupt superlatively."

In terms of the confusion surrounding the structure of the subtle body, it is also the case that most people just pass on information that has been handed down to them in the first place, and in that sort of system certain issues get lost and others are embellished. Plus some people just like to make things up to sound knowledgable and advanced, and i am thinking here of all the extra chakras that new agers like to toss around, and then this stuff is quoted somewhere else as fact. No wonder there's so much confusion.

I wouldn't say I am getting blocked by the relationship of the central channel, heart chakra, 3rd eye, and crown, just that i have a very specific order in mind, and i am interested in any and all information that addresses this order, and the difference that this order might make. I am not playing a mind game, I am examining information I have been given to test its validity, though I do believe this information explicitly, still I like to look around and compare what I believe with what other people describe. In this process, if something I believe has never been described by anyone on a legitimate spiritual path, then I would be inclined to keep examining this particular belief. So far, everything else I have come across I have found can be validated quite easily according to Yoga knowledge of the subtle body, this particular issue of the order of the chakras is harder to validate though, and discussing it here I thought perhaps someone might have read a reference to it that they might share. The only other reference apart from Tibetan Buddhism I have come across is Edgar Cayce, his readings identify the seventh chakra as ­the third-eye chakra, which he further identifies with the Pituitary Gland. Identifying the third eye with the pituitary gland also makes a big difference. He described the arrangement of the chakras as being in the shape of a shepherd’s crook. When he was asked about his order which didn’t concur with the typical Yoga order, he said that he did not care what others were saying, but he was giving the correct arrangement. This is just one person's information, I would still love to talk to a Tibetan Master about this issue, but where I am they are in short supply. In one sense I can just wait and see, but curiosity tends to be stronger in me than disinterest.

In my particular quote from Ramana he says that The Vasanas (the latent mental tendencies) need to be destroyed as opposed to concentrating on kundalini, Ramana is decidedly against working directly with kundalini, and I stated very clearly that I agreed with him, so I'm not sure why you counsel me to not play with kundalini, which I am already convinced of. I wouldn't play with kundalini even with expert guidance, let alone without. When you say "start with what you feel and go from there", do you have something like working on destroying the Vasana's in mind, or something else? As far as the anatomy of the subtle body being a distraction and a dead end goes, I agree that this may be a distraction at the start of the spiritual journey, but in my experience at a certain point knowledge of the subtle body may be not a distraction but a way forward. A certain level of knowledge though even when starting out such as understanding Ramana’s admonition to not focus on kundalini but on the Vasana’s can direct an entire spiritual path in a positive direction.

You asked referring to this post: Ramana said: I largely agree with Ramana except that I believe that the central channel passes from the crown chakra to ajna and on to the forehead, not the heart. In thinking this, my concern is to clear and balance the channels before kundalini is fully released, so that when it does ascend it can follow the cleared way to the forehead, as opposed to straight up through the crown. At least this is the theory, I have yet to see if the theory plays out in practice.

I think this was the forced closing of the third eye.

A simple mistake that anyone could have made

Have you come across any further information apart from what you mention here about the actual result of the central channel terminating at the brow instead of the crown?

Fair enough you don't want scientists tinkering with your subtle body. Why do you think the subtle body is half way between fluid and fixed?

I do know where you're coming from Rigdzin, and I thank you for your kind post. I do agree that yes there are many different maps of the subtle body (= vajra body?), but I would suggest that as Michael's post implies this confusion will hopefully be resolved through increased study of the Science of the subtle body. I am no scientist myself, but i do understand that certain energetic fields are generated by anatomical structures, and I do believe that these energy structures that have been known about and referred to in spiritual circles for millenia will be able to be measured with appropriate instrumentation by interested scientists. This in the spirit of increasing knowledge and clarity, and building on the work of generations of spiritual men and women. A quick search of google scholar brought these results from the first page I am not promoting the content of these articles as necessarily correct, but I am heartened by the attempt to explore the concrete nature of the subtle body.

I don't think we are spiritually very healthy though, so the analogy doesn't necessarily hold.

Thanks T_I, I'll look into your references. I cannot help but find it interesting that Tibetan Buddhism reverses the order of the last 2 chakras. It completely changes the whole focus of certain spiritual practices, and makes me think of Ramana saying that releasing kundalini to go straight up through the crown is useless.

Putting the concept into words:

But I'm not talking about their methods, just the image. Does it have any value? Like in my first quote about duality of mind and ida and pingala, I'm not promoting Tibetan Buddhism, but looking at his statement on face value, and asking whether what he says has merit. There is no presumption that what these authors/images present is automatically true, as far as I'm concerned everything needs to be questioned, I wouldn't personally play it any other way.