Bindi

I'll try to lay it out for you Jeff. Jonesboy said: I said: You Jeff, then responded to my post. And I responded to yours, and so it went on. So clearly you inserted yourself into this discussion, until i reminded you what it was we were disagreeing about, luckily, because apparently you had no idea. But now that you have made it clear that you disagree with Jonesboy's article regarding Jesus's Judaism, i don't need to keep this futile argument going.

His personal relationship with the Father was new within Judaism, yes, and i would agree that his understanding went well beyond Jewish tradition. His understanding was quite unique. But this doesn't mean that he didn't identify himself as a Jew. All i am debating here Jeff, are these sentences in Jonesboy's quote 'Why a Hindu Accepts Christ and Rejects Churchianity' By Swami Abhedananda

Within the yoga system that I am coming to ascribe to, which I believe describes the subtle body and its energies accurately, to stop seeking would be to fall short, as this system is linear and progressive. My original post was attempting to explore the realisation of the self in the crown chakra, beyond ‘the inner heart’. But there is further development beyond this point. I believe Daoism refers to something similar with the formation and development of a golden body after the 3 Dan Tians have been filled. I recall reading this in a Daoist context - “when you see the golden man you are close”, but I couldn’t find where I read it again.

I don’t believe that Jesus ever suggested he had brought a new covenant that erased Judaism. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17) I think Jesus brought a profound personal spirituality to Judaism, and that he tried to inject this personal spirituality into his religion. When he directly said or did anything that seemed to contradict Hebrew law, such as not fasting, or healing on the Sabbath, he wasn’t deliberately overturning the law, but he did have to justify his approach by reinterpreting the law to his followers and accusers, to allow for his compelling spiritual imperative. But Jesus would have believed that he was himself fulfilling Jewish law by following the spirit of the law, though clearly not always the plain letter of the law. Jesus wouldn’t have seen himself as anything other than a devout Jew. The apostles would never have seen themselves as anything other than Jewish. The earliest followers of Jesus would have been Messianic Jews essentially. Dispute about the place of Judaism within Christianity began after the death of Jesus, in the early Christian churches. Passages written about Jesus, after his death, are more likely to have undergone ‘churchification’, and may well discount Judaism.

This thread was put into general discussion on purpose, I wish to reply to an earlier Christian post myself - please feel free to discuss from any POV

The path towards the blue pearl (through nadi's and within chakras) is through the causal and supra causal states, neither of which are non-dual states. And I would propose that "the point of pure Consciousness within each individual that is the core of our true identity" (the siddhayoga definition of the blue pearl) is not non-duality, but a 'refined' experience of duality.

Jesus himself was thoroughly steeped in Judaism, with Judaic dogma, Judaic creed, Judaic system, and Judaic theology. The bible presumably erased much of the Judaism, and imposed church doctrine. Matthew 5:18 KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I am travelling the path of duality, which is the only path i find available, and authentic experience of non-duality may happen at some point. Then my answer would be very different of course.

Your question assumes the dualistic doctrine of the New Testament is incorrect. I personally don’t try to understand non-duality, nor do I seek non-duality, as I tend to keep my eyes fixed on the dualistic path that I am travelling. Whether non-dualism lies at the end of this road or not I can’t say right now, so whether the dualistic teaching of the Bible needed correcting or not I don’t know, though I could probably come up with an opinion. Is non-dualism correct, or merely fashionable? Is there any merit in dualistic thought, or is it hopelessly ignorant?

Did it have an impact on your life, or at least on your spiritual direction?

Seems like a good way to look at it. I do gather that the ego trap is there to the end, always waiting...

But then who has ever actually gotten to this ultimate and indescribable level? I just don't think anyone has, certainly not recently, no matter what they may claim, and how indescribably they claim it. Maybe its not actually indescribable.The only person i feel safe suggesting is JC, and he seemed to be able to describe it pretty well, pretty down to earth, and not lost for words.

So then the question that springs to my mind is is it possible to achieve very high levels of self-realisation and still be abusive in any way? Perhaps it is possible to reach high levels, but not an ultimate level, as abusive behaviour cannot exist at the highest level of attainment.

Apparently my way of thinking makes most people uneasy, you're not alone there.

Between what I quoted and what you quoted from Ramana Maharshi it is clear that he said different things on different occasions. Personally, I cannot help thinking in terms of the subtle energy body as overlaid upon the physical body, with correlations that can be made between the two. For instance chakras are subtle energy vortexes associated with definable places on the physical body. Nadi’s are subtle energy channels, again associated with definable places on the physical body. For example Ida and pingala are out from the centre in the subtle energy body. Sushumna is central, corresponding with the spine. Muktananda is talking about stages of spiritual attainment going from the physical, subtle and causal levels, to the supra-causal level within the sahasrara in the crown of the head. These stages depend on prana moving through specific nadi’s in the subtle energy body in highly defined locations that can be referred to by their correlation to the physical body. Muktananda suggests that when consciousness fully arrives at the heart level, it exists at the causal level. For Ramana Maharshi to be so adamant that the spiritual heart is the core of one’s being suggests to me that he simply never discovered the supra-causal level. Only when consciousness travels through the most central nadi’s, higher than heart level, can it enter the supra-causal level, where the blue pearl lies in the sahasrara chakra in the crown. I of course contend that Muktananda saw correctly when he identified the blue pearl in the sahasrara as the core of our true identity. I love how he explains that the blue pearl expands infinitely and that if consciousness is one with the blue pearl and that expansion, so one realises being infinite. I find this doctrine to be incredibly clear and practical and concrete. It demonstrates to me the underlying energy structures of self-realisation. Though clearly what thrills me in terms of definable subtle energy structures is anathema to many. Oh well.

In yoga references, the spiritual heart is considered to be "a psychospiritual structure corresponding to the heart muscle on the material plane." http://hridaya-yoga.com/hridaya-yoga-articles/hridaya-philosophy/significance-of-hridaya-the-spiritual-heart/ This is the sense in which I am using the term. On various yoga sites it is described as being located in slightly different places, but always somewhere near the physical heart, for example "It is located at the center of your chest and it is where your true self (also known as spirit or atman) is located." http://www.padmacahaya.org/our-heart/what-is-our-heart According to Ramana Maharshi, “The godly atom of the Self is to be found in the right chamber of the heart, about one finger-width’s distance from the body’s midline. “Here lies the Heart, the dynamic Spiritual Heart. It is called hridaya, is located on the right side of the chest, and is clearly visible to the inner eye of an adept on the Spiritual Path. Through meditation you can learn to find the Self in the cave of this Heart.” It is clear that there is much disagreement in yoga traditions about the exact location. I would be inclined to follow Ramana Maharshi's placement, as he is more likely to have personally seen it with the inner eye. Perhaps in different traditions the spiritual heart has no location, maybe it depends on what tradition you're coming from.

I do believe that they need to be explored as separate first, for me it is jumping the gun to explore them as combined first. In Daoist thinking, the Dan Tians have to be filled, one at a time, starting in a certain order. A Daoist would surely laugh at the idea that they might be explored as a combined unity before they were fully established individually. I personally believe the same of chakras, ie. clearing and opening in order from 1-7, but there are so many ideas about this that this becomes just an obscure personal belief. Perhaps Muktananda was talking about the blue pearl as proof of a station on the way, and yes probably there is more, but i agree with his sense that one has to get to this point at least, before going on to the next. 3bob said in an earlier post that to attain this level was not possible for a householder, while you ask why stop at this low level?

From the siddhayoga glossary, the blue pearl is defined as “the point of pure Consciousness within each individual that is the core of our true identity and the source of all our powers of perception and action.” So where he is referring to a point of pure consciousness, you seem to be referring to an experience beyond consciousness. Where he sees an 'identity', you see 'no self'. I think this is an interesting point of difference, about what people are seeking. Muktananda regarded "the stable visualization of the blue pearl to be the primary evidence of supreme realization" - I gather he discounted people's claims of spiritual attainment or self-realisation unless they had experienced the blue pearl in this very specific way. edit: Of course, people who disagree with this can just discount Muktananda...

This might be slightly clearer about Muktananda's reference to black:

Indeed, the challenge at the causal level would apparently overcome even most monks or nuns - "This is a testing time for the seeker because a deep, terrifying and unending darkness is experienced in this state, forcing seekers to abandon their meditation." Nonetheless, did Muktananda himself see deeper/further than the inner heart?

Have you come across black light somewhere? There are other things about this article that I haven't come across before, and I don't know what I think of, such as the individual soul being in the eyes at the physical level and the throat at the subtle or astral level. The black light reminded me of St John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul. I also read a description recently that described God/Om as an illuminated inky blackness, and in this sense black light would seem to be beyond even the 'supra-causal' level.

I tried to google Nadi Yoga and just got references to yoga and nadi's in general, do you have any specific references?

The reference to starlight makes me think of the astral body, though I don't associate astral bodies with embodying cosmic energy and information.

For me, an end goal appears to be bringing full emotional awareness to the higher chakras. Emotions in this sense can be seen as the sole underlying issue, and clearing the path for emotions to ascend from the lowest to the highest chakras becomes my path, which fundamentally means resolving and clearing layer upon layer of emotional issues (and bringing subtle energies up, but only to continue the work of furthering the journey of emotional awareness). For me knowledge of the chakras is irrelevant (though they can be interesting) except to the extent that they do or do not allow emotion to pass through freely. I guess that after this goal has been reached other things may happen, things more typically related to the word spirituality, but I would see that as the by-product of complete emotional clarity. I wonder what is the place of emotions for others in relation to their spirituality?

I appreciate swami j's sense of tracing back through the manifestations of Shakti to finally reveal the understanding that Shakti and Shiva are one. Reality might be that all is unity, but I can only discover this by working through the layers of appearances first.