Bindi

To my understanding the pranic system needs to be cleared of obstructions, especially ida and pingala nadi’s, but clearing them has an effect on all the minor nadi’s as well. Clearing ida and pingala I think also includes clearing and opening the chakras along the way, but pranic energy doesn’t seem to ‘realise’ the chakras, perhaps this is what kundalini energy is for. But I do think that pranic energy is very useful, and like the author writes in the quote above, I think it is more accessible than kundalini energy, maybe like energy kindergarten… My experience is that obstructions in ida and pingala (and the chakras) do seem to respond to more dense methods such as work on the emotions, self enquiry, and at a certain stage energy work. There are other methods which I haven’t tried, such as alternate nostril breathing and kechari. I’m not familiar with meditation, and so I don’t know whether meditation is an attempt to clear ida and pingala, or sushumna, or something else entirely.

After Ida and Pingala are balanced, the Prana is guided to enter and flow into the mouth of Sushumna. This flow of Prana in Sushumna is one of the first goals of meditation. Prana flowing in Sushumna brings a great feeling of joy, sukhamana (sukha=joyous; mana=mind). The tremendous peace of mind can seem to be enlightenment itself, for those not familiar with the further reaches of Kundalini Awakening and spiritual experience. As the spiritual journey can seem quite complex at times, this brings a simplicity to the process, by providing a sort of first bench mark to aim for (Prana flowing in Sushumna). All of the practices can then be seen as having a common goal, that of bringing Ida and Pingala to an inner balance, where Prana then flows in Sushumna. Prana flowing in Sushumna is one of the critical points of the inner journey. The entire inner journey can be summarized in 3 steps: • First, awakening of Sushumna [after Ida and Pingala are balanced]. • Second, Kundalini Awakening. • Third, Kundalini rising to Sahasrara, the crown chakra. Swami j (edited).

One energy, the energy of consciousness, which changes form and has different names in the different forms.

Staying with the same author: “The crown chakra is the centre of higher intuition or the higher buddhic faculty. This faculty when fully developed, manifests as “direct knowing” or “direct inner perception.” It is knowing without having to study. What is learned through the buddhic faculty in a few minutes will require weeks, if not months, to put into words.”

I wonder if some clairvoyance is reliant on the third eye being open at all, or if the third eye must be open for clairvoyance to occur then maybe it only needs to be open partially. Choa Kok Sui states that "Lower clairvoyance uses the lower chakras" and that the 'third eye' is "the centre of higher clairvoyance". A case in point, my mother has a great talent to see what is happening on the subtle body level, but she also 'sees' that she hasn't opened her third eye. In fact she started being able to see when she first opened her heart chakra. Throughout her life even before opening her heart chakra, she occasionally had random visions. I have read and do believe that with the 3rd eye open there is always "direct inner perception accompanied by inner vision". According to Choa Kok Sui the third eye is direct inner perception with form, it is the open crown chakra that is capable of direct inner perception without form.

From what I can understand, awakening apparently involves a realisation of reality, it’s about being in the present, with the mind at bay, no thoughts, which leads to this realisation, and it is available to anyone who is able to completely still their mind. In this state, what is not real appears to fall away over time, leaving only the present, and silence. Apparently risen Kundalini is not necessary to be in an awakened state. Please feel free to correct this definition. But are those who claim to be awakened claiming to be enlightened, and what is enlightenment? First and foremost it seems to me that in enlightenment there must be light, perhaps even an explosion of light within. This light is presumably associated with unity with God/the Cosmos, and direct knowledge from this source. And it is considered to be a long and arduous path to enlightenment, and certain conditions must be met, for example going beyond identity and ego. Is risen kundalini necessary to achieve an enlightened state? Again, this definition may need to be corrected. It does seem that we in the West are more exposed to stories of ‘awakening’ than enlightenment – is it just different terminology, or is there a deeper difference? If there is a difference, does awakening lead to enlightenment?

I realise there are a few different opinions about the difference between kundalini and prana. If prana is kundalini Shakti, I personally don't see how it could be active in Ida and Pingala and other minor nadi's before being released from the base of the spine. This information may be wrong, but I gather Tibetan yogins consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). Or it might be just a matter of degree, so some kundalini energy entering the system when kundalini 'awakens' before being fully released, like steam escaping from a closed pot. Also this speaks to my other point, that nothing much seems to happen when chakras are acted upon and cleared and opened through ida and pingala pathways, but I believe they must have been somehow prepared and then become 'realised' or fully activated or 'pierced' when kundalini energy is then released (which would include acquiring the gifts and siddhis contained within each chakra). And equally it seems to me that chakras that are exposed to released kundalini energy don't become activated or 'realised' merely by kundalini release, until they are acted upon by some other force, which I suspect is the prana from ida and pingala. Anyway, I started this thread to try and figure these sorts of issues out

Yes, a very clear article on ida and pingala. Thanks for that reference. I found myself thinking a bit about sympathetic/parasympathetic in these terms today, and right brain/left brain. There must be a few different ways to balance these nadi's. Ramana would say self-enquiry. Ramana seems to be my main response to this video

water was merely an analogy, a literary device, surely what should be being examined was the meaning of the analogy, not water itself.

The Raven (Dreamt by a young German friend of mine) Hannah was walking with her friend on a wide green grass plain where a few trees grew. There was nothing else there and they were walking along happily when suddenly a raven appeared sitting in a tree. Raven said “Watch your step” and Hannah’s friend laughed and said “Why should I watch my step? It’s just a grassy plain here, and nothing else but trees” So they walked on further, when suddenly her friend stepped on a snail. Hannah started crying because the snail was crushed, but her friend just laughed, saying “Silly you, you don’t have to cry, it’s just a snail.” They walked further on when Raven suddenly appeared again in a tree beside them and said “Watch your step”. Her friend laughed and said “Why should I watch my step? It’s just a grassy green plain here, and nothing else but trees and a couple of snails.” So they walked further on, when suddenly her friend stepped on the head of a big white snake, and Hannah cried because the snake’s head was squashed. Her friend laughed, saying “Silly you, it’s just a snake, and they are dangerous anyway.” So they walked further on, when raven appeared again in a tree and said “Watch your step” to her friend. Her friend laughed and said “why should I watch my step. It’s just a grassy green plain here, and nothing else but trees, a couple of snails, and a few snakes. So they walked further on, when suddenly, her friend stepped on a black cat’s tail. The cat ran away but with her tail mangled she lost her balance and couldn’t run fast enough, and a dog came and ate her. Hannah cried, and her friend laughed, saying “Silly you, it’s just a cat.” So they walked on, when Raven suddenly appeared in a tree, saying “Watch your step.” Her friend laughed and said “Why should I watch my step? It’s just a grassy green plain here, and nothing else but trees, a couple of snails, a few snakes, and some cats.” They kept walking, when suddenly her friend stepped on a brown dog’s paws, and the dog couldn’t walk properly. A hunter came along, and thought that the dog was very sick, and that a sick dog was dangerous to other animals, so he shot it to put it out of its misery. Hannah cried, and her friend laughed, saying “Silly you, it’s just a dog.” They walked on, when suddenly raven appeared in a tree, saying “I’ll tell you for the last time, watch your step and I won’t say it anymore.” Her friend said “Why should I watch my step? It’s just a grassy green plain here with nothing but a few trees, a couple of snails, a few snakes, and some cats and dogs. So they walked on further when suddenly her friend stepped on the belly of a black and white Friesian cow, hurting the cow so that she couldn’t turn over anymore, she just lay there with her four legs up in the air, unable to get up and eat grass, and so she died. Hannah cried and her friend laughed, saying “Silly you, it’s just a cow.” They walked further on, when Raven appeared and said “Watch your step Hannah,” and Hannah said “I will.” Then Hannah saw a white seal in front of her. She jumped aside and just missed stepping on it, but her friend didn’t jump aside and did step on it, and the seal got badly hurt. This time, Hannah laughed because she was so happy that she hadn’t stepped on the seal, and her friend cried because he was so sad at what he had done. They walked further on when raven appeared saying to her friend “I really shouldn’t appear anymore and tell you to watch your step, but I will, just for you. So please, watch your step” and the Raven sounded very urgent. They walked further on when suddenly her friend disappeared, and Hannah looked around searching for him. She finally saw him lying down in a ditch, with his bones broken, and he was dying. Hannah sat down by the ditch feeling sad, and waited for her friend to die, and then walked away still feeling sad. She came to a cottage, went inside, and found a fire burning in the fireplace. She sat down and warmed herself up, and it began to feel like home. Suddenly all the animals – the snail, the snake, the cat, the dog, the cow, and the seal, all came inside and Hannah fed them all. Raven appeared and sat on Hannah’s hand eating corn. Raven said “Until your friend watches his step, and begins to realise, it will happen again, and again, and again.”

So his theory is that you are supposed to balance Ida (sympathetic nervous system) and Pingala (para-sympathetic nervous system) to still the mind, which allows energy to travel up sushumna into ajna. Is it valid to associate Ida and Pingala with the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system? And with the right and left brain? I agree with the concept of bringing kundalini up to ajna, but for me his methods are too mechanical. Does kundalini yoga bring people to enlightenment? Ramana didn’t think so. I think its very unlikely that Jesus was a kundalini yogi, I think its more likely that his wisdom is synonomous with the subtle unchanging truth, captured in the parables. I don’t think the wide road and narrow road are the mouth and the nasal passage. This seems like a case of see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear, an easy trap to fall into IMO. Not to say his kechari method is necessarily without merit, but why does he have to shore it up with a spurious biblical proof? The speaker shifts very easily from the synoptics to John and any gnostic text which supports his position, so not credible for me, but he’s neither the first nor the last to try and make the connection between Jesus and Eastern wisdom. I’ve also read biographies that claim Jesus was in Egypt for those years.

By Witness do you mean Higher Self? I perceive my Higher Self as very actively drawing my consciousness up through my chakras, to learn, to be refined, and to clear the path for consciousness and kundalini to ultimately break through fully to ajna chakra. It's a very different path to the one you are on, to stop now and imagine I was there already would be to fall short of my goal. I don't get 'awakened', though I aim for 'enlightened'.

I like your contribution here, more clarity regarding these states and various stages could only improve understanding. Please feel free to expand on this. I agree that the PATH is the real point

With the concept of enlightenment, I am drawn by the very structure of the word to the concept of light. As Gerard posted previously: Semantics, according to the American heritage dictionary, is the scientific or philosophical study of the relations of words and their meanings: Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial point or distinction that revolves around mere words rather than significant issues. But if you consider enlightenment to be primarily associated with light and the crown chakra, which is very specific (and so far undisputed), it seems beyond semantics to ask whether you believe this to be separate from awakening, or merely fantasy. Just concentrate on this one aspect, light in the crown chakra. This to my knowledge is not considered to be part of awakening, or part of the experience of being in the moment, or empty. And this light would be unmissable, it wouldn't blend in with the awakened experience. It would be exceptional.

Do you distinguish between awakeness and enlightenment? Or do you see only endless awakeness, and enlightenment no more than a fantasy?

I fully agree that it is your right to ingest whatever you like, especially as it does no harm to any living being and only risks your own sanity. But it is also true that the perception you thus attain is most likely an entirely personal experience which is hard to generalise or authentically compare to the definitions in spiritual literature of being awakened or enlightened. I personally disagree that mind is “typically quite pathetic for most purposes beyond working/driving etc”, I perceive mind as a wonderful tool for emotional and energy development all the way through to the dismantling of persona and ego where to my current understanding it then needs to be subdued in service to a higher Reality, and what I perceive as the real start of spiritual development. And I certainly don't consider myself a sober sheeple

It seems that you've made a study of these synergistic plants/entheogens, do you use any of these herb teas as part of your meditation?

Thanks for responding. Just to clarify, when I asked you the place of feelings, I was meaning the place of emotions such as compassion, joy, anger, sadness etc., and I'd certainly still appreciate an answer to this question. Also, it's not quite clear whether this state is permanent for you?

Bud, how did you go beyond the thinking mind? Is it a place you are in permanently? What is the place of feelings within this way of being?

I like the idea of prajna, because it just doesn't make sense to me to go around in emptiness, but to go around with spontaneous direct knowing sounds entirely reasonable, and practical.

Jetsun, what is the nature of 'prajna'? edit: I looked it up and found this definition... I am curious, because so many say emptiness is the true nature beyond mind, but can this be read as 'consciousness' is the true nature beyond mind, or intuitive experience, or really only emptiness?

One thing that bothers me about much 'Western awakening' is the simplistic formulas often recommended to achieve this state.

I have wondered who the entity is that feels all these things, and for now I perceive the entity who is dreaming, feeling, and resolving these things is my awareness/consciousness slowly ascending through the chakras to join with my Higher Self. I analyse the dream itself, but then deliberately stop any intellectual process and feel the feeling. But it's only to release what might be blocked. Say with fear, if I am caught in that level of being, and unpack the reason for fear in my life through dream analysis, and feel and release the fear that was driving me, then I consider that to be cleared, I can feel fear when appropriate, but I don't live fearfully all the time. I was shown my personal hijackers in a dream, fear, shame, negativity, desire, anger, that took control of me, and this dream showed me removing them one by one. I just believed the dream, and went about removing them over time, bit by bit. I once had a dream which explained how dreams work: There was a big screen in a movie theatre, and on the screen was thousands of unrelated random looking pixels. One of these pixels would be taken from the screen, and played in a projector on the wall beside me, distorting the video scene into caricature because it was being played in such close up. After being played the pixel went back into the big screen and resolved itself into a sensible piece of the puzzle, and it was clear to me in the dream that when enough pixels were resolved I would be able to see the ‘big picture’. This dream explained satisfactorily to me why it was important to ‘resolve’ my dreams, and also why dreams themselves looked so mad sometimes, like caricatures. I read this the other day, the author Leon Rhodes is describing the life review of Near death experiencers after going through a black tunnel: “many experiencers are treated to a remarkable show called “The Life Review.” It has been described in full color, three-dimensional, and shown as if on a wide screen. The review is extremely detailed and does not miss a thing. Some describe what looks like a slow-motion review, yet somehow their entire conscious lives are compressed into an astonishing re-enactment of everything they have ever done. Such a review would take a long time in an earthly theatre bound by time and space; yet within the few minutes of a near death experience, the leading character is shown not only all the events of his or her former life, but can also experience the emotions that were involved.” It made me wonder if dreams are a way to access ‘the life review’ while alive, bound by time and space. From Leon again: “Many experiencers report this fascinating feature of being able to see the big picture. They were shown a vast cosmic view of creation and saw a logic, an order to their lives that made sense. One experiencer said, “When I saw the complete picture, I found myself saying, ‘But of course, of course!’” She finally understood how the many pieces of her life fit together.” I very much relate to this idea of seeing the big picture.