Bindi

I think if one just keeps working with and through the layer that presents itself, we’ll get there in the end, I like the kosha model for this. It’s ok if I don’t identify as the Self, because I’ll get there in the end. The causal body is equivalent to anandamaya kosha, not the Self but the last layer before the Self. Do the work that needs to be done within this kosha, which to me is removing vasanas, and the Self will be revealed, fully and permanently with no limitations. It’s enough, and needn’t be rushed, because so much will remain undone if these layers and their issues and gifts are ignored.

The end point of integration models and transcendence models is likely to be different, because the two approaches fundamentally differ in how they engage with emotions, thoughts, and the self throughout the process of spiritual growth. The key distinction lies in how each model views the role of emotions, thoughts, and the ego in the journey toward spiritual realization and how they define the ultimate state of spiritual maturity. End Point of Transcendence Models In transcendence models (such as nonduality, certain forms of Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Eckhart Tolle’s teachings etc.), the ultimate goal is to transcend or dissolve the ego, mental constructs, and emotions in order to experience an absolute state of unity, pure consciousness, or oneness. The focus is on the realization that the individual self is an illusion and that true liberation comes from seeing through this illusion to experience the truth of nonduality. The Dissolution of the Self: The end goal is to transcend the self, including thoughts, emotions, and personal identity, in order to merge with the absolute, the divine, or universal consciousness. The ultimate state is one of pure awareness, where individual identity no longer exists. In this view, the ego and emotions are seen as temporary and often illusory aspects of the mind, which are transcended in the experience of oneness. The emphasis is on detachment and non-identification with the thoughts and emotions that arise within the mind. Emotions and thoughts are not integrated or worked with, but rather observed as passing phenomena, which lose their power over the individual once they are recognized as illusory. Transcendence of Emotional and Mental Layers: Once one achieves the awakening or realization of nonduality, the emotional and mental layers are no longer part of the self in the traditional sense. They may still arise, but they are seen as impermanent and not something the individual needs to actively engage with or resolve. The ultimate end point is a state of peace and stillness, where the mind and emotions no longer cause disturbance, and the person is in a state of detached awareness. In many cases, the bypass of emotions and thoughts is viewed as necessary to reach this state of ultimate freedom. Emotions and thoughts are no longer something to be worked through or healed but simply observed without attachment or judgment. End Point of Integration Models In integration models (such as those in psychospirituality, somatic healing, trauma-informed spirituality, dream work or embodied approaches to awakening), the end goal is the integration of all aspects of the self—emotional, mental, and spiritual—into a harmonious whole. The integration of emotions and thoughts is seen as a necessary step in achieving true wholeness and authentic spiritual awakening. The Wholeness of the Self: The end point in integration models is not the dissolution of the self, but rather the integration and harmonization of all aspects of the person. This means that the emotional and mental bodies are acknowledged, healed, and embraced as part of the spiritual journey, rather than something to be discarded or transcended. The goal is to create a state where the spiritual, mental, and emotional aspects of the self are in balanceand alignment. Rather than seeking to transcend the emotional or mental layers, the individual seeks to fully experience and process their emotions and thoughts, so that they no longer dominate or create blocks to spiritual growth. This involves self-awareness, healing trauma, and gaining emotional intelligence. Embodied Spirituality: The integration model tends to have an embodied approach to spirituality. Emotions, thoughts, and the body are seen as real, essential parts of the human experience that need to be worked with and integrated into one’s spiritual practice. The ultimate end point is not detachment but the full acceptance and awareness of all parts of the self—mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. The individual in the integration model becomes more authentic and whole, with a deep sense of inner peacethat arises from the healing and integration of all parts of their being, rather than the dissolution of one’s personal identity. It’s a journey of inner harmony where spiritual growth leads to a greater capacity for emotional intelligence and mental clarity, alongside spiritual awakening. Key Differences in the End Points The Role of the Self: Transcendence: The self is transcended, and the ultimate state is pure awareness, nonduality, and the dissolution of ego and personal identity. Integration: The self is integrated and healed, and the goal is wholeness—where emotions, thoughts, and the spiritual essence coexist in harmony. Emotions and Thoughts: Transcendence: Emotions and thoughts are seen as distractions or illusions that are transcended in the journey to pure consciousness or oneness. Integration: Emotions and thoughts are embraced and integrated. They are healed, processed, and understood as part of the whole self, and the goal is to be whole and authentic, not detached or dissociated from emotional or mental experiences. State of Consciousness: Transcendence: The end point is a state of detached awareness, often described as blissful stillness or absolute unity, where the individual has dissolved the illusion of the personal self. Integration: The end point is a state of peace, but one where the individual remains fully embodied, conscious of their thoughts and emotions, and capable of interacting with the world in a grounded and authentic way. Spirituality: Transcendence: Spirituality involves moving beyond personal experience to experience oneness with the divine or the absolute. Integration: Spirituality involves a full embrace of the human experience, where spiritual awakening deepens the connection to the emotional, mental, and physical aspects of life. Conclusion: Transcendence vs Integration The two models—transcendence and integration—are not inherently incompatible, but they represent different perspectives on the end goal of spiritual growth. The transcendence model seeks to go beyond the individual self, including emotions and thoughts, to achieve a pure, detached awareness of the absolute. The integration model, on the other hand, embraces the emotional, mental, and spiritual layers as part of the process of becoming whole, and the end point is embodied wholeness rather than transcendence. These paths may differ in approach, but both aim toward a form of liberation, just understood differently.

I could say I am informed by automatic processes, for me it’s dreams and kundalini perhaps, but there is an element of directed attention in working with what these automatic processes bring to my attention. Once kundalini was roused (after some forty five years or so of emotional/mental ‘clearing’ pre work), its role seems to be to bring samskaras bit by bit to the surface, in a more accelerated and insistent way than pre kundalini, which can be emotionally intense. Any prework done to dismantle samskaras really pays off during this process. Initially, I felt overwhelmed and lost in the emotive story, but after maybe a couple of years I learned to face these emotions directly, sitting with them and just feeling them. After pretty much staying with this process which culminated in a few moments of seemingly intense pain that felt like it had been there forever, it seems I shifted to also working with the vasanas at the causal body level, so the roots of karma. This work seems to be a lot more removed from the emotional pain level, vasanas are more at arms length and I’m able to move more into an objective observer role, with dreams still providing additional guidance, pointing out particular patterns or defenses that I mentally try to comprehend and address. At this stage, my main practice is observing conditioned thoughts or feelings as they arise, fully acknowledging them, and tracing their karmic threads as best I can. I believe this is the key to dissolving vasanas. I don’t think Kundalini energy directly clears the causal level it just helps clear emotional and mental knots in the subtle body making it possible to approach the causal body, which holds the underlying karmic vasanas, with greater clarity and objectivity. While it may be possible to address vasanas without kundalini, I believe the central channel’s unfolding is simply the most efficient and thorough design for this work.

While many systems allow for minor residual patterns to remain, a handful, like Krishnamurti, Theravada Buddhism, rigorous Advaita interpretations, and certain yoga philosophies, emphasise total purification as the hallmark of ultimate liberation. Clearly, we hold differing visions of what liberation entails. For me, the path to complete freedom necessitates the dissolution of all samskaras and vasanas, leaving no residue and no unresolved duality behind.

Kundalini is the higher, more refined, ‘spiritual’ energy that flows through the central channel after the side channels (Ida and Pingala) are purified. This process of purification and the rise of Kundalini is what leads to the realisation of nonduality via the union of Shiva and Shakti or stillness and vitality, which i believe would be equivalent to the union of heaven and earth in daoism. Definitely not equivalent to post heaven Qi which is a mundane energy, kundalini would be referred to as a primordial energy which is (usually) not active when we are born.

It is my understanding that jivanmukti happens after all vasanas are dissolved, you’re lowering the bar: "The seeker must destroy the vasanas and the karma associated with them. The mind, clouded by these vasanas, is not fit to realize the non-dual Self. Only when the vasanas are removed, can the Self shine forth in its full glory." - Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara - “Liberation is the total destruction of vasanas.” - Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara, verse 317 "The mind is a bundle of vasanas. When the vasanas are reduced to zero, the mind ceases to exist, and the Self is realized." - Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 528 I’m not chasing chimeras, kundalini is merely showing herself to be a very thorough clearer of all samskaras and all vasanas.

I think no system has the complete and final method, though I suspect early daoism or neidan might have been a complete system a long time ago. Like the story of the blind men and the elephant, every path thinks they have the right way, but they are most likely just feeling one section of the elephant.

It’s true my perspective is based on my own ongoing journey and insights rather than a claim of final attainment. My post reflects how I currently interpret the differences between these paths, informed by kundalini experience, study, and contemplation. That said, what’s your take on the difference between jivanmukti and nondual realisation?

In my view, the kundalini path to nonduality is qualitatively different from the self-inquiry path. Kundalini is unique in that it has the potential to address all layers of karma directly. This distinction highlights the difference between becoming a jivanmukta and being nondually realised: The nondually realised person transcends identification with karma and sees it as illusory but doesn’t necessarily aim to remove it. As a result, the karma remains intact, even if it is considered to be no longer binding. In contrast, kundalini is a transformative force that works to dissolve karma completely, making liberation not just a matter of perception but a permanent reality. IMO Kundalini isn’t merely a preference or an optional path, it’s part of the innate design of complete spiritual awakening.

The concept of the Huang Ting (黄庭), translated as the "Yellow Court" or "Palace of Emptiness," is central to the Taishang Huangting Jing (太上黄庭经), and represents both a physical and metaphysical locus in Daoist practice. This idea is explored throughout the scripture, and the Huang Ting serves as a profound focal point for the practitioner's spiritual cultivation. 1. The Huang Ting as a Sacred Space: The Huang Ting is often referred to as a "palace" or "court" but, in a metaphysical sense, it represents the central space or heart of the practitioner's being, particularly where the essence (Jing), energy (Qi), and spirit (Shen) converge. It is symbolically the seat of the original spirit or Yuan Shen, which houses the seed of immortality. In some interpretations, the Huang Ting is also seen as the field of emptiness within the body, representing the space where Daoist alchemical transformations occur. Here, the practice of aligning with the Dao (the Way) and refining internal energies is achieved. 2. Physical and Subtle Anatomy: The Huang Ting often appears as a reference to a specific location within the body, primarily in the middle dantian region, which corresponds to the chest or heart area in physical terms. In Daoist physiology, this center is where the refined energy of the body (Qi) accumulates and is stored. The Yellow Court is a central space within the body where the Three Treasures (Jing, Qi, Shen) are cultivated. In this sense, it becomes the focal point for the practitioner’s meditation and spiritual work. The refining of the Jing(essence), which originates from the kidneys, occurs here, leading to the creation of Qi (vital energy), which is then stored in the Huang Ting. 3. Role in Alchemical Practice: The text speaks about alchemical transformation: transforming base substances into spiritual gold, symbolizing the transformation of ordinary matter into the spiritual substance of the immortal body. In this context, the Huang Ting is where this internal alchemy happens, and it is the "place" of the cultivation of the immortal spirit. A key principle in Daoist alchemy is the circulation of energy through channels within the body. The Huang Tingserves as the primary vessel for circulating energy, ensuring it is purified, balanced, and directed properly. Through the process of breathing, meditation, and Qi circulation, the practitioner refines energy here and prevents the dissipation of vital energy. When properly cultivated, the Huang Ting serves as the source of eternal life and an access point to spiritual realms. This connection helps break through the limits of mortality, creating an eternal flow of life force. 4. Symbolism of Yellow: Yellow (黄, "Huang") in Daoism is an important color. It is traditionally associated with the earth element, representing grounding, stability, and transformation. In this context, the Yellow Court refers not just to a geographical or physical space but to the earthly realm or the center of life force. The color symbolizes the grounding of the spiritual energy within the practitioner’s body. Yellow can also be symbolic of the Sage and the concept of centeredness. In Daoism, being "yellow" or having the "yellow court" could mean being perfectly balanced, centered in the heart of the Dao, where all inner energies converge and stabilize. 5. The "Emptiness" Aspect: The emptiness part of the Huang Ting is critical. Emptiness in Daoist thought refers to a state of pure potentiality—the place of origin before any material manifestation or energy formation. The Yellow Court is, therefore, not just a physical or energetic location but also a state of spiritual openness where the practitioner can connect to the Dao without the interference of conceptual thoughts, distractions, or desires. This emptiness is not a void in the traditional sense but a fertile space where everything is possible and nothing obstructs the flow of the Dao. It symbolizes non-action (Wu Wei), the state of being that enables the natural unfolding of life and energy. 6. Integration with the Larger Cosmos: The Huang Ting is also tied to the idea of universal harmony. Through the cultivation of internal energy, the practitioner aligns their personal Huang Ting with the larger cosmic forces, including the sun, moon, and stars. This alignment ensures the practitioner not only remains in harmony with their own internal energy but also with the universal Qi that flows through everything. It is through this internal-external unity that one is able to achieve the immortal body and transcend the limitations of ordinary physical existence. The text suggests that those who cultivate their Huang Ting properly can connect directly with cosmic wisdom and eternal life. 7. Connection to Breath: The scripture connects the Huang Ting with breathwork, a critical component of Daoist practices. The breathflows into and out of this space, cleansing and refining the energies inside the practitioner. With controlled and deep breathing, one can move Qi into the Huang Ting, activating its potential for spiritual transformation. The text advocates the practice of conscious breathing to awaken and stabilize the Huang Ting. By doing so, one enhances their spiritual awareness, deepens their connection to the Dao, and progresses toward immortality. 8. Spiritual Immortality: Central to the Huang Ting’s teachings is the attainment of spiritual immortality. It is within the Huang Ting that the practitioner can achieve an unbreakable connection to the Dao, transforming themselves into an immortal sage. This is achieved not through physical longevity alone but through the cultivation of spiritual and energetic longevity, aligning oneself completely with the flow of the universe. The process of refining the energies within the Huang Ting involves continual purification of thoughts, emotions, and physical sensations. The goal is to create an unimpeded flow of energy, allowing the original spirit (Yuan Shen) to shine through without distortion. Conclusion: The Huang Ting or Yellow Court is a key concept in Daoist alchemy and cultivation. It represents the center of energy and spirit within the body, where the essence (Jing), energy (Qi), and spirit (Shen) come together and are refined for the purpose of achieving immortality. Through practices of meditation, energy circulation, and breath control, the practitioner harmonizes their internal environment with the cosmos, achieving unity with the Dao and spiritual transcendence. The emptiness within the Huang Ting is fertile ground for spiritual growth, where one can experience the fullness of existence without obstruction. The above is an AI generated summary of the concept of the Huang Ting as it appears in the “exalted one’s yellow court external illumination scripture.” The original Chinese script was used and translated by AI.

I’ve watched quite a few NDE stories, quite fascinating and strong support to the idea that we continue.

I agree, identifying as one part of the True Self along the way isn’t a problem though. As young children most of us will identify as a physical body and rightly so, then later as the mind and maybe later subtle energy and the ‘jiva’ on the way to the True Self, but like the Jing > Qi > Shen model, I think progression is required so as to fully integrate each level.

Thank you for your considered thoughts on this! I agree this shift of consciousness can’t be forced, as it requires letting go rather than willing it from the mind - any effort immediately negates the shift because it’s still mind-based until this space appears as a sensation. A difference I see, though, between what I was referring to and your quotes is that your quotes overall seem to suggest a freed consciousness begins to align with the body’s natural activity without effort, resulting in a harmonious connection between mind, body, and consciousness. In contrast, I’m proposing a fundamentally different outcome: the alignment between an ‘original Spirit’ and kundalini energy (as well as mind, emotions, and body). So I agree, yes, there are definitely similarities, but also fundamental differences.

If there is indeed one Soul - and that may well be the case - it’s not been the focus of my journey. My path leads me toward integrating my consciousness with my individual Soul or Spirit. The connection my individual Soul or Spirit may or may not have beyond itself is not part of my current focus or purpose.

There are two aspects of the quote above from Johnson that I find particularly interesting. First, the idea of a subtle body storage area near the heart that holds unprocessed emotions until they’re ready to be addressed is fascinating. This perspective is intriguing not only from a psychological standpoint but also because it offers a practical explanation for why the Huang Ting, as an energy center, cannot be perceived until emotional backlog has been processed. To me it suggests a functional approach to the dynamics of the subtle body. Second, I see a distinction between Johnson’s perspective and the AI’s perspective in working with the Huang ting. It seems to me that being a pivotal stage to the ancient Chinese, perceiving the Huang Ting is framed as the result of alchemical work , rather than the method itself, as the AI quote appears to suggest. I think this is a fundamental issue in a lot of practices, expected outcomes are often used as the method, out of time and out of place. I’ve got to add, I don’t think it’s the fault of AI that focusing on the Huang ting is considered to be the method, this approach does seem to be what is suggested in known texts referring to the Huang ting.

In ancient Daoist alchemy, this point was known as Shenfu, the Spirit Storehouse, and is the place where Qi transforms into Shen. Today this point is commonly called the "Yellow Court" (Huangting) because it reflects the emotions stored from the Heart. In ancient Chinese medicine, the Heart was often referred to as the "Yellow Emperor" or "Suspended Gold." The responsibility of the Pericardium (known as the "Minister of Council", and the "Heart's Protector") was to store emotional experiences that the Heart was not yet ready to process into the emperor's courtyard. These emotions would stay outside the realm of the Heart within the courtyard (known as the "Yellow Court") until the Heart was ready to receive or face the information and experience (Figure 5.28). Historically, there has been much confusion and disagreement as to the actual location of the Yellow Court. This confusion stems from the understanding that the Yellow Court is also a generalized term referring to the energetic centers of Qi transformation (the Three Dantians). Some Daoist traditions maintain that the Yellow Court and MIDDLE Dantian are located in the same area, being both associated with the Heart. Other traditions assign the Yellow Court to the energetic functions of the Spleen. In ancient China, the transformation of Qi into Shen occurring in the Yellow Court was considered the pivotal stage in energetic alchemy. The Yellow Court was the location where the emergence of the spiritual embryo (Taixi) takes place. Therefore, the exact location of the Yellow Court was historically kept secret. Because of the overlap of energies existing between the Heart and Spleen, only a true Daoist initiate would be able to clearly differentiate the exact location of the Yellow Court. P. 223 Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy, Volume 1, by Professor Jerry Alan Johnson

It’s my ego self that has a problem with allowing everything to be swept away, my soul or spirit is entirely approving.

Kundalini is an embodied energy, it brings up deep emotions and beliefs in order to finally process them, so yes one will be aware of that energy being active. Not so much the shiva aspect, I have dreams demonstrating the role he takes, but no conscious awareness of his energy yet. It’s a long process. Awareness of a previously unknown energy centre, not the navel or the heart or the head, opens up, a very real sensation, the Chinese call it the Huang Ting, it’s the embodied place where the original spirit or soul or shiva as I’m using the term connects with kundalini (or qi in the Chinese version). Consciousness shifts its centre to ‘the centre’ of the body, and aligns with the soul. It would be fully comprehended, consciously and tangibly.

I can explain it via the dream I posted on another thread. In this dream, I went from deliberately separating the vine from the structure (my choice) to trying to stop the entire thing from toppling over (I do not want my sense of ‘reality’ to fall), I actively work against the new status quo, twice, before I finally allow gravity (kundalini) to take its course. I’m not pushing my known reality over, a force of nature is causing it and I’m actively working against that force of nature, though in the end nature wins. Who’s actually ready to feel the seemingly eternal intensity of karmic pain or drop overblown karmic stories, but they’re child’s play in comparison to the dropping of the sense of self that is ultimately required.

Even if one is not really ready, when kundalini is ‘authentically’ active you don’t have a choice anymore, though a lot of pre work will have been done so that mitigates it somewhat. I imagine doing it to a complete level would be impossible with just the mind running the show anyway?

The below quote is a quote from doc benways post. I didn’t write it, doc benway wrote it, I tried to understand it myself, I believe it is his understanding of nonduality. “the entire spectrum of ideation and emotion are seen as the manifestation, or dynamic ornamentation, of the base and the direct realization of this depth and breadth of integration in an active and lived sense is the fruition. In this paradigm, it is the very differentiation of self and other which is the fundamental impediment to integration, so the work is done at this level of differentiation, as opposed to at the level of the multitude of experiences, emotions, and ideas that occur to the source of differentiation, the self” In my post where I responded to doc benway I did also give my perspective about the nature of reality, using my dream to explain my perspective.

I should have made myself clearer, I was attempting to summarise doc benways perspective which I’ve quoted below. “the entire spectrum of ideation and emotion are seen as the manifestation, or dynamic ornamentation, of the base and the direct realization of this depth and breadth of integration in an active and lived sense is the fruition. In this paradigm, it is the very differentiation of self and other which is the fundamental impediment to integration, so the work is done at this level of differentiation, as opposed to at the level of the multitude of experiences, emotions, and ideas that occur to the source of differentiation, the self.”

Sure, just sharing a perspective that justifies interest in working with the ‘ornaments’.

Overall, as I understand it, Geof Nanto proposes that the necessary "work" for spiritual growth involves engaging in the differentiation of Eros and Logos or xing and qing. This contrasts with the nonduality paradigm, which suggests that integration arises by realising all thoughts and emotions as mere expressions of the base, and that this realisation itself constitutes nondual awakening. To me, if I’ve understood the nonduality paradigm correctly, its realisation is valid but incomplete. A dream I had offers a contrasting perspective: In the dream, an overgrown grapevine was entwined with a wooden pergola. My task was to disentangle the vine from the structure. Methodically, I unwound the tendrils from the beams, separated the branches, and finally approached the central post, where the vine’s trunk had become so intertwined with the structure that they seemed inseparable. After much effort, I managed to split them apart. Once separated, the entire structure began to topple. I attempted to stabilise it twice, but on the third attempt, I gave up and walked away. When I turned back, the overgrown vine and structure had vanished, replaced by a fresh, new vine, this time without a structure. In the dream, I realised that while I had thought the pergola supported the vine, it had actually restricted it. The new vine, free of the structure, was now able to grow unimpeded. I interpret this to mean that spiritual "work" involves the gradual peeling away of emotional and mental clinging to conditioned reality. This process progresses from the easily separable to deeply entrenched complexes. However, the work does not end there; ultimately, both the conditioned manifestations (the vine) and the supportive but restrictive structures (the pergola) are entirely cleared away. What emerges is a renewed, unconditioned self—rooted in the same transcendent ground of being but manifesting in the world in an entirely different, freer way. This dream underscores my paradigm, which requires direct engagement with emotional and mental complexes. While they are manifestations of the transcendent, they are not to be passively accepted as they are, because they are shaped by karma and samskaras. Instead, these manifestations must be actively renewed. To accept the overgrown vine and structure as they are is, to my mind, a form of bypassing—a limitation inherent in the nonduality paradigm.

The first two are 1. attachment to the physical world, survival instincts, and material desires and 2. Attachment to emotions, relationships, and egoic identity. I suspect even our understanding of awakened differs, my perspective on non-dual reality is the ‘transcendent’ shiva aspect joining with the ‘immanent’ kundalini/shakti element - shiva’s consciousness being expressed in the external world by kundalini/shakti’s manifest energy. Rudra Granthi holds attachments to individuality, spiritual pride, and subtle mental constructs, also the karmic entanglements associated with these attachments. Maybe it’s the karmic entanglement that needs kundalini energy, I can’t see how that level would be cleared without it.