Bindi

It seems your experience led you to a nondual realisation, or something along those lines, a realisation that people buy into mental/emotional stories that aren’t real and that don’t need to be bought into (as well as your unwanted direct seeing). I have a different experience of kundalini rising, I have found that kundalini takes a long time at each dantian, resolving the underlying issues at each of these points. For example you mentioned anxiety below the Ming men point, in my experience kundalini experiences existential fear of death at the middle dantian, but if she can experience that anxiety in an mdt pool that has been pre filled, somehow the pool allows her to slow down or causes her to not burn, but there’s a reason dantians are part of the system. Doing these lower levels slowly also removes the need for emergency grounding later, as the lower parts of the system have already stabilised. I don’t think direct seeing is inherently problematic, I think it’s a positive part of the unfolding process if certain preconditions are met. Having said that my mother also had a very hard time with her direct seeing, so I’ve come across this before, she disliked how it made her feel, some sort of spaced outness, though what she saw i found very valuable. Our subtle energy systems are actually the biggest mystery there is to solve IMO, my working hypothesis at the moment is that the step from lower dantian energy being raised to the middle dantian is disassembled, and this is the sticking point in developing the entire system. IMO if that step gets resolved, then kundalini comes into her own.

I would expect something like this. I think kundalini would have to be present at ajna for longer for direct seeing to have remained and even increased. Do you have the sense that kundalini has descended and stayed down since this experience?

Thanks for sharing this BES 🙂 Did you notice any changes in either direct seeing when Ajna was pierced or spiritual knowledge when guru was pierced?

Out of interest, does anyone know what this line translates to, it’s from the external yellow court scripture: 三關既通，真炁自升

Ok, I’m hearing you @Antares and @johndoe2012 kundalini isn’t yuan qi. Is yuan qi the substance that is brought up from the LDT that is alchemically converted and fills the MDT?

In Neidan, Yuan Shen (Original Spirit) is the pure, untainted consciousness that existed before conditioning, before thoughts, emotions, or identification with form. It is beyond duality and is considered to be our true nature. In Shaiva and Kundalini traditions, Shiva is often described as pure, unchanging consciousness, the ultimate reality, beyond all fluctuation. He is the silent witness, the absolute stillness that remains when everything else dissolves. So there is a strong parallel between Yuan Shen and Shiva as both represent the undifferentiated, eternal self. I hate to say it but that makes kundalini a very good candidate for yuan qi. In Neidan, Yuan Qi (Original Qi) is the fundamental, pre-heaven energy that animates life and drives the transformation process. It is the primordial, unconditioned energy that exists before differentiation into Yin and Yang. This strongly parallels Shakti (Kundalini energy) in the Shaiva tradition. Shakti is the dynamic, active force that awakens and moves toward unity with Shiva, she is beyond Ida and Pingala polarity, and she is the bridge between form and formlessness. I think the end point is different though, kundalini paths tend to go out from the crown, whereas neidan paths tend towards alignment with the body and this is a huge difference, where one could easily see them as therefore completely different, but I think it’s more bad practice (in kundalini yoga) that is to blame. Regarding Yin and Yang as Ida and Pingala, I understand why you might resist this comparison based on traditional frameworks. However, from my own experience, both through dreams and multiple direct visions, I have strong reasons to see Ida as black and Pingala as white. While this may challenge a rigid interpretation of Yin and Yang, it aligns with my understanding of how these energies function in the body.

What specifically do you envision as the end result of Daoist neidan, versus the end result of kundalini activation?

I think the Indian model is pretty accurate, overlaying Indian and daoist models I’d say ida and pingala are equivalent to yin and yang though daoists don’t place yin and Yang specifically in the subtle body. To me they are channels that run from the bottom of the body to the top like the Indian system. There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent energy to kundalini in daoism, and from my perspective that’s a shortcoming. Kundalini is not actually activated Yang qi from pingala sent into the central channel, it’s an actual ‘consciousness’ that is actually asleep in the lower part of the body that ideally is awakened when both Ida and Pingala are cleared and flowing. That’s my understanding, what yoga people do I don’t know personally, but I am not drawn to what I consider to be forceful methods, breathing, locks, trying to force energies, so I’m not defending yoga practices.

Previously I was speaking from personal experience regarding kundalini and the central channel, and no I’m not particularly interested in the original texts, I’m more interested in finding my own personal path. I used AI because it was quick and easy, reflecting my relative lack of interest in these texts. I’m happy with the AI references, if you’re not that’s up to you.

You could look up the references in my post and prove they're wrong instead of dismissing them with a blanket distrust of AI, which disproves nothing. I do highly doubt that the British influenced indian concepts of Kundalini.

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Quick ChatGPT check: Kundalini in Classical Texts a) The Upanishads (c. 1000 BCE – 500 CE) The earliest references to kundalini appear in the Upanishads, particularly the Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad, Shandilya Upanishad, and Hatha Yoga Pradipika. These texts describe kundalini as a dormant energy at the base of the spine that rises through sushumna nadi when awakened. Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad (c. 9th-10th century CE) "When the sleeping kundalini is awakened by the grace of the guru, then all the lotuses and knots are pierced, and the prana rises upward through the sushumna." b ) Goraksha Samhita (10th-11th century CE) Written by Gorakhnath, this text discusses the awakening of kundalini and its movement through the spine. "Kundalini, when awakened, moves through the sushumna and reaches Sahasrara, where the yogi experiences supreme bliss." c) Hatha Yoga Pradipika (14th century but based on older teachings) Swami Swatmarama, compiling earlier tantric and yogic traditions, describes sushumna nadi, kundalini, and their role in enlightenment. "When the sleeping serpent (kundalini) is awakened, she moves upward through sushumna and all the chakras are pierced."

I don’t think so As I wrote in my response to Lairg, I don’t think that kundalini yoga will achieve the right circulation either, as these yogis seem to get stuck grasping at the crown, and not gaining real satisfaction in the long term from this. I took a very personal road, time will tell if this road is the right one to achieve full alignment of my three bodies, physical subtle and causal. My journey isn’t finished, my insight isn’t absolute, but I can discuss my perspective as I understand it at this moment. For your part, doubting my claims is entirely valid, I’ve doubted all claims of achievement myself, I think when someone has achieved a final state they should be able to prove it satisfactorily.

I agree with your general thrust, and only feel the need to clarify my position. The clearing that has to be done before kundalini is in the two side channels, these are mental and emotional complexes, when kundalini is forced I believe it ends up clearing the side channels as well as the central channel and this is Gopi Krishna’s experience, it’s unnecessarily dangerous and damaging, and I doubt this sort of forcing even brings one to the ‘Self’ which after all is the aim of any method. The central channel is a different matter, this is the channel that I believe kundalini clears, this is the channel it’s not possible to clear without kundalini, this is the channel where all underlying karma is rooted out. Think about it logically, after the side channels are cleared kundalini is naturally awakened, and as she rises she can’t help but clean. The possibility of kundalini awakening in the central channel and having no karma to clear and rising immediately and effortlessly is a trillion to one, you would need to be born with no karma, which is so rare as to be impossible. What I have found through experience is that doing things in what I consider to be the right order, clearing the psychological level of emotions and thoughts, at the same time creates the subtle body infrastructure that will go on to be used by kundalini as she makes her way upwards, allowing that progress to not be overwhelming. I had guidance in how to create certain subtle energy infrastructure, which made it relatively easy for me, I think without guidance it would be a lot harder on a person, I personally can’t even imagine how some things would be formed that are required, so the whole topic is quite complicated, but once emotional and mental complexes are resolved, and this subtle body infrastructure is in place, kundalini does exactly what she needs to do in the central channel. In general I would also say that I disagree with the idea that kundalini goes to the crown and efforts to stay there are actually the goal. Again from experience kundalini does travel up to the crown but then falls back down to the centre point of the body, where she waits patiently for the gifts of the crown to come to her, think of a tree whose fruits ripen in their own time, and drop down when they are ready. I think people have been making a huge error in staying in samadhi trying to ‘steal’ these fruits by forcing kundalini to stay in their crown for x amount of time, as long as they remain in samadhi. Not having followed a natural course, they crave the fruits and steal what isn’t ripe, which doesn’t lead to any real satisfaction. True satisfaction I believe comes with aligning with the Soul in the causal body, the fruits that fall when ripe just facilitate this alignment, they’re part of the overall system.

Kundalini isn’t something I 'practice' like a technique, it’s a natural unfolding. I could stop engaging with it, but that wouldn’t mean kundalini stops, it would just mean I stop paying attention to what’s happening internally. When kundalini, an entirely natural consciousness that inhabits the central channel when awakened organically, has full reign, it’s not something that can or should be stopped, that would be like saying, "Stop feeling or stop thinking for a few months and see what happens." It just doesn’t work that way. I understand that kundalini is not part of your belief system, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamental part of how consciousness integrates and transforms—it’s just something you haven’t encountered yet. Maybe take some time to read about kundalini before trying to debate it out of existence. Gopi Krishna’s experience is a good example—he forced the process and paid the consequences, but it was unstoppable. I’ve also found Swamij insightful, as he emphasises the importance of clearing the side channels first. https://swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm

I had a teacher for a while, she was able to directly see what was happening in my subtle energy system and in my physical body, and what I learnt from her was absolutely invaluable. Unfortunately she’s dead now. Interestingly, her skills were developed through dream work which I guided her in, in a way I created my own teacher! If you or anyone else knows someone with the specific talent of seeing subtle energy directly I’d be more than happy to hear about it, real feedback in real time is a rare treat.

I state this from experience. When approached correctly, kundalini clears all emotional and mental blockages, which until then cloud the clarity of yuan Shen. I think there is a historical problem with how people have worked with kundalini. What should be part of a natural process has been disrupted by interference and impatience. Not surprisingly, kundalini has become misunderstood and marginalised, to the point where it is now seen as not being required at all. My personal experience counteracts this, though I understand for now I am a lone voice on this. Time will tell.

The end point of integration models and transcendence models is likely to be different, because the two approaches fundamentally differ in how they engage with emotions, thoughts, and the self throughout the process of spiritual growth. The key distinction lies in how each model views the role of emotions, thoughts, and the ego in the journey toward spiritual realization and how they define the ultimate state of spiritual maturity. End Point of Transcendence Models In transcendence models (such as nonduality, certain forms of Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Eckhart Tolle’s teachings etc.), the ultimate goal is to transcend or dissolve the ego, mental constructs, and emotions in order to experience an absolute state of unity, pure consciousness, or oneness. The focus is on the realization that the individual self is an illusion and that true liberation comes from seeing through this illusion to experience the truth of nonduality. The Dissolution of the Self: The end goal is to transcend the self, including thoughts, emotions, and personal identity, in order to merge with the absolute, the divine, or universal consciousness. The ultimate state is one of pure awareness, where individual identity no longer exists. In this view, the ego and emotions are seen as temporary and often illusory aspects of the mind, which are transcended in the experience of oneness. The emphasis is on detachment and non-identification with the thoughts and emotions that arise within the mind. Emotions and thoughts are not integrated or worked with, but rather observed as passing phenomena, which lose their power over the individual once they are recognized as illusory. Transcendence of Emotional and Mental Layers: Once one achieves the awakening or realization of nonduality, the emotional and mental layers are no longer part of the self in the traditional sense. They may still arise, but they are seen as impermanent and not something the individual needs to actively engage with or resolve. The ultimate end point is a state of peace and stillness, where the mind and emotions no longer cause disturbance, and the person is in a state of detached awareness. In many cases, the bypass of emotions and thoughts is viewed as necessary to reach this state of ultimate freedom. Emotions and thoughts are no longer something to be worked through or healed but simply observed without attachment or judgment. End Point of Integration Models In integration models (such as those in psychospirituality, somatic healing, trauma-informed spirituality, dream work or embodied approaches to awakening), the end goal is the integration of all aspects of the self—emotional, mental, and spiritual—into a harmonious whole. The integration of emotions and thoughts is seen as a necessary step in achieving true wholeness and authentic spiritual awakening. The Wholeness of the Self: The end point in integration models is not the dissolution of the self, but rather the integration and harmonization of all aspects of the person. This means that the emotional and mental bodies are acknowledged, healed, and embraced as part of the spiritual journey, rather than something to be discarded or transcended. The goal is to create a state where the spiritual, mental, and emotional aspects of the self are in balanceand alignment. Rather than seeking to transcend the emotional or mental layers, the individual seeks to fully experience and process their emotions and thoughts, so that they no longer dominate or create blocks to spiritual growth. This involves self-awareness, healing trauma, and gaining emotional intelligence. Embodied Spirituality: The integration model tends to have an embodied approach to spirituality. Emotions, thoughts, and the body are seen as real, essential parts of the human experience that need to be worked with and integrated into one’s spiritual practice. The ultimate end point is not detachment but the full acceptance and awareness of all parts of the self—mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. The individual in the integration model becomes more authentic and whole, with a deep sense of inner peacethat arises from the healing and integration of all parts of their being, rather than the dissolution of one’s personal identity. It’s a journey of inner harmony where spiritual growth leads to a greater capacity for emotional intelligence and mental clarity, alongside spiritual awakening. Key Differences in the End Points The Role of the Self: Transcendence: The self is transcended, and the ultimate state is pure awareness, nonduality, and the dissolution of ego and personal identity. Integration: The self is integrated and healed, and the goal is wholeness—where emotions, thoughts, and the spiritual essence coexist in harmony. Emotions and Thoughts: Transcendence: Emotions and thoughts are seen as distractions or illusions that are transcended in the journey to pure consciousness or oneness. Integration: Emotions and thoughts are embraced and integrated. They are healed, processed, and understood as part of the whole self, and the goal is to be whole and authentic, not detached or dissociated from emotional or mental experiences. State of Consciousness: Transcendence: The end point is a state of detached awareness, often described as blissful stillness or absolute unity, where the individual has dissolved the illusion of the personal self. Integration: The end point is a state of peace, but one where the individual remains fully embodied, conscious of their thoughts and emotions, and capable of interacting with the world in a grounded and authentic way. Spirituality: Transcendence: Spirituality involves moving beyond personal experience to experience oneness with the divine or the absolute. Integration: Spirituality involves a full embrace of the human experience, where spiritual awakening deepens the connection to the emotional, mental, and physical aspects of life. Conclusion: Transcendence vs Integration The two models—transcendence and integration—are not inherently incompatible, but they represent different perspectives on the end goal of spiritual growth. The transcendence model seeks to go beyond the individual self, including emotions and thoughts, to achieve a pure, detached awareness of the absolute. The integration model, on the other hand, embraces the emotional, mental, and spiritual layers as part of the process of becoming whole, and the end point is embodied wholeness rather than transcendence. These paths may differ in approach, but both aim toward a form of liberation, just understood differently.

Do you mean that the original spirit or soul never left? If so, I agree, of course. But I’m coming to the conclusion that it’s the soul, not our mundane thoughts and emotions, that is responsible for creating karma through the poor decisions it makes. I actually think things are opposite to how they’re generally considered. I’m beginning to see thoughts and emotions as expressions of the soul, a kind of Morse code from the soul, trying to get our attention. Instead of viewing thoughts and emotions as veils that obscure the pure truth of an unconditioned soul, I suspect they arise because the soul is bound by karma and is attempting to communicate its condition. The soul never left, but it fell out of alignment with the Dao, and it struggles to return to alignment, gaining wisdom in this process, especially the wisdom to not fall into the same trap again.

Do you mean kundalini is a type of Yin Fire post natal Qi? Assuming you mean this, I agree, though I think it’s a powerful way to reinstate yuan Shen which then affects yuan Qi positively.

This makes me think that by coming to the causal body within me, and perceiving and coming to identify with the original spirit or soul that exists within this level, this is the inner way that leads to alignment with the Dao.

I’m pretty sure this is valid AI kulandini information: Getting back to the OP, I don’t think kundalini is equivalent to preheaven qi which is the inherent, limited energy one is born with, stored in the kidneys, and responsible for the basic foundation of health and vitality.

Agreed, my lesson is never trust AI on face value. I wonder though, what is “the visible manifestation of truth?” I just asked for a translation as well, and got this: The Sanskrit phrase "ṛtasya dṛṣṭau prathamaṁ mahīyate" can be translated as: "In the vision of ṛta, the first (one) is exalted." Breakdown of the Words: ṛtasya (ṛta + sya) → "of ṛta" (Ṛta refers to cosmic order, truth, or the fundamental law of the universe in Vedic thought). dṛṣṭau (dṛṣṭi + au, locative dual or singular) → "in the vision" or "in the sight." prathamaṁ → "first" or "primary." mahīyate → "is exalted," "is honored," or "is magnified." Interpretation: The phrase suggests that in the perception or realization of ṛta (the cosmic order/truth), the first or primary one (perhaps a seer, a principle, or an entity) is honored or exalted. The Sanskrit phrase "yatra brahmā viśvam idam varīyasi" can be translated as: "Where Brahman is the greatest in this entire universe." Breakdown of the Words: yatra → "where" brahmā → "Brahman" (the supreme, the absolute reality) viśvam → "the universe," "all," or "the cosmos" idam → "this" varīyasi → "is the greatest," "is most excellent," or "is supreme" (comparative/superlative form of variṣṭha, meaning "great, superior"). Interpretation: This phrase conveys a sense of a place or state where Brahman is realized as the supreme reality pervading the entire universe. It suggests an ultimate truth or realization where Brahman is recognized as the highest. And my question of my translation is what is the first or primary one?

Following my integrative model, mundane activity isn’t just about continuing as it was before or after enlightenment. The process of inner work fundamentally reshapes all the systems that carry out these activities. As you progress through the stages of integration, the relationship with thoughts and emotions transforms. This happens because the energy of the central channel, specifically kundalini energy, takes over as the primary consciousness of the heart and mind. Thoughts and emotions still exist, but a) they’re no longer reactive, b ) they’re somewhat upgraded and c) they’re now the result of the ‘soul’ consciousness, which wills any action that takes place. The entire system is overhauled.

Good question, I was exploring references to kundalini in Indian literature via AI and it came up with this one. Examining it further "ṛtasya dṛṣṭau prathamaṁ mahīyate" → "In the vision of cosmic order (ṛta), the Earth is exalted first." Earth (Mahī) is given primacy, much like how kundalini (Earth energy) is the root force that must awaken before ascension to higher consciousness can occur. This suggests that the spiritual process begins from the base (Earth/root) before rising to the higher (Brahman/cosmic order). "yatra brahmā viśvam idam varīyasi" → "There, where the divine knowledge (Brahman) encompasses the whole universe." Brahman represents the unified field of consciousness, the goal of kundalini’s journey—to merge the individual spirit with the ultimate reality. The verse suggests that within ṛta (cosmic order), Earth energy plays a fundamental role in the unfolding of universal knowledge, which is essentially the kundalini process. The verse emphasizes Earth as the starting point of the divine unfolding, just as kundalini is rooted in Earth energy (Muladhara) before ascending. Union of Earth & Spirit: This verse acknowledges the cosmic interconnectedness of the physical (Earth) and the Absolute (Brahman), which is precisely what kundalini facilitates—raising energy from the base of existence to ultimate wisdom. It might be an overly imaginative reading, but I can see where AI is coming from. The earth is exalted first, and it is from within the earth that divine knowledge encompasses the universe.