chinadao

Sure the ancestors can see that times have changed. But what makes us think they automatically agree with or accept these changed times? Just because times change doesn't mean the older generations change along with the times. In fact, most often, older people wish for a return to 'the way things used to be' during their younger days. This behavior is so common between different generations that is has a formal name - The Generation Gap. The Mo Pai ancestors are, after all, still just human beings. May I quote from the book The Magus of Java. Chapter 5 - The Story of Liao Sifu, page 65: Kosta speaking, "I always thought that you had to be good and moral to develop abilities of this sort. That power went hand-in-hand with divine integrity. How is it possible that Liao Sifu had not progressed beyond thoughts of revenge at that level?" John Chang laughed, "You've read too many Western books, Kosta, or watched the TV series Kung Fu too often. A human being is a human being, don't think it is so easy to stop being human! Liao Sifu knew what he was doing was wrong, but he still took revenge, and bloody revenge at that. He was a man, after all, not God..." Chapter 8 - The Will of Heaven, page 130: John Chang speaking, "I'm the headmaster of Pa Lei Chuan, a school of kungfu. I am the teacher of a Chinese science called neikung that involves studying, enhancing, and finally combining the energies of yin and yang in the body; the particular neikung I teach is of the lineage attributed to the sage Mo-Tzu. Beyond that I am a man like any other." And again on page 131: John Chang speaking, "Because the human animal is not yet ready to become a god." I think perhaps there is something in our Western or Christian culture that seeks to deify the neikung masters of China. We must recognize this is our projection upon them. Edward Richards

The Mo Pai ancestors lived centuries ago and so they are a product of the era in which they lived (as we all are). Their mindsets/opinions are the same as when they were alive. John Chang is living in a very different society, different culture, even a different country (Indonesia as opposed to China) and so he has different ideas and opinions than those ancestors from generations ago in China. Do you think the ancestors could have ever imagined their country would host the Olympics? Their experience of foreigners is one of war, invasion, and occupation. That is the China in which they lived. The ancestors never lived in a "global village". Edward Richards

Hello Larry Tupper, I took a weekend CNT class you taught in Chicago, IL in the early 1990's. Nice to 'meet' you again. Glad to know you are well. Edward Richards Chicago, IL

Hello Mike, I just want to clarify the term "Chinese Indonesian students". Does that mean students who are of 100% Chinese blood, but were born and/or raised in Indonesia? If so, that might exclude almost the entire school. OR Do you mean students who are of 50% Chinese blood and 50% Indonesian blood? And these 50/50 students were expelled because they were not of 100% Chinese blood? Thanks, Edward Richards

Hello Laoshr, Are you Jiles Marin from California? Edward Richards Chicago, IL

The retreat with Master Wang was excellent. We did two long sitting meditation sessions per day, plus morning practice and evening practice on half of the nights. There was also extensive theoretical discussion which was quite informative. He does allow cushions or pillows to lift the spine. Although he himself does not use them. Master Wang understands everyone is beginning at their own level. As an interesting aside for all the Tao Bums. In the very short time since I posted the group photo from our 10-day retreat with Wang Liping, I and several other people in the photo have been deluged with emails, telephone calls, and PM's from Sean Denty. Asking about the cost of our retreat amongst other things. He was all over us like a bad suit, trying to protect his interests. I thought everyone on this forum should know. I haven't bothered to read Sean Denty's 3 PM's he sent to me within 57 minutes. If I do read them, it will only be to share publicly with the Tao Bums. Also, one of the other people in the group photo requested that I remove the photo and so I will comply with their request. They don't want Sean Denty's hassling. Me, I couldn't care less. Still in China, I will be back home at the end of the week. Edward Richards Chicago, IL

Two people achieved SHO. And it was wonderful to see Master Wang assist when it began to happen spontaneously. As an interesting aside for all the Tao Bums. In the very short time since I posted the group photo from our 10-day retreat with Wang Liping, I and several other people in the photo have been deluged with emails, telephone calls, and PM's from Sean Denty. Asking about the cost of our retreat amongst other things. He was all over us like a bad suit, trying to protect his interests. I thought everyone on this forum should know. I haven't bothered to read Sean Denty's 3 PM's he sent to me within 57 minutes. If I do read them, it will only be to share publicly with the Tao Bums. Also, one of the other people in the group photo requested that I remove the photo and so I will comply with their request. They don't want Sean Denty's hassling. Me, I couldn't care less. Still in China, I will be back home at the end of the week. Edward Richards Chicago, IL

We can add John Chang and the Mo Pai to the list of Full-Lotus cultivators. One week after I first learned Level 1 in Indonesia in February 2005, while sitting in John Chang's home, I said, "Shifu, I have been practicing Level 1 for an hour twice per day." John Chang asked, "You can sit lotus?" "Yes", I replied, and moved into full-lotus on his sofa. John Chang nodded his head and grunted his approval. Regarding Wang Liping, he is most strict about sitting in lotus for all phases of the Dragon Gate path (please just read the book). Of course, not every beginner can from the start so some students are in half-lotus or even cross legged. However, Master Wang is most strict about NOT MOVING/SHIFTING our legs during the 90min - 2+hour meditation. Yes, it always gets uncomfortable and painful and that is when Master Wang says that we must persevere and hold our posture if we are to get results! I need to improve at this myself... While full-lotus may not be the only path, it is certainly an extremely valid path and one with a long history of success especially in Daoist lineages. So can we stop doubting its efficacy? Edward Richards Chicago, IL

Hello Everyone, Last month, June 2008, I organized a group of 8 people for a 10-day retreat with Master Wang Liping in China. There is always the possibility of another group forming if enough people are interested. If there is enough interest perhaps Master Wang will come to the US one day in the future. Edward Richards Chicago, IL

Hello Mantis, Could you please provide the link to "secrets of stretching" DVD? (torrent website?) Thank You, Edward Richards

Hello Dao Bums, I am presently in China beginning the tenth day of a ten day intensive retreat with Wang Liping. There are eight of us in this group. Four of the students are here for the second time, the other four are first-timers, myself included. I can confirm that all the meditation is done sitting in lotus (cross, half, full, depending on individual abilities). Liping says that lotus is the foundation for building a strong dantien and stove/cauldron and without this strong foundation you cannot correctly develop this in your own body. He says lotus closes the meridians in the legs and seals the yin gates (perinium, anus, sexual organs) to allow the qi to collect in our bodies during meditation. If you sit in a chair you simply won't get the same results he says. Yes, it is painful, but it seems to bring results. We sit for 90-140 minutes, twice per day. The retreat is amazing. Wang Liping is gem of a teacher in my opinion. Edward Richards

Hello Sheng Zhen, Sifu Jiamg's approach is very individualistic. He doesn't just train you, he treats you. This I believe is one of the reasons for his success as a teacher. Jiang analyses your body and energetic makeup using his qi. He then makes corrections to each individual student/patient using his qi - repairing leakages, blockages, deficiencies, excesses, short curcuits. etc. He also prescribes herbal 'dan' pills to aid in the corrections or in training. These are quite expensive and apparently quite effective. There are many options in this area and the price is not set, it is based on the individual. Only after treatment does Sifu Jiang begin training. Once again this begins on an individual basis. Different people will begin differently based upon their individual energetic needs. There is no manual or outline of the process given. As with most master - student relationships the process advances one step at a time. I understand that it is only after the student acheives a certain level that there begins to be some uniformity to the training amongst different students. Prior to that, different students will have different practices to a certain extent. Many people do not train with Sifu Jiang, but see him to assist with health issues. Edward Richards

Hello Shidoin, I would just like to ask if you have a similar opinion about John Chang, Jiang, and Wang Liping. Not trying to start an argument, just wondering what your thoughts are about the authenticity of these 3 masters. Also, interested if others on this forum feel these 3 masters are authentic. Edward Richards

Hello Wen Yuen Gong, Yes, I am still practicing MoPai. Though my last (second) visit with John Chang was October 2006 at which time John Chang tested me and told me I was almost 40% complete for Level 1. I need to visit him again. My first visit was February 2005. I made contact with Wang Liping in 2007. I met Wang Liping twice - February and March 2008. I have not yet trained with Wang Liping. Wang Liping has agreed to begin training me - this will begin soon. It will be authentic close training, not a public seminar. At this time I cannot say what the differences are between Wang Liping and Mo Pai. But I am sure there are great differences in their approaches. I believe they are entirely different approaches. There are also significant differences in how Sifu Jiang teaches vs. MoPai. Although I would say these two Pai have much more in common with each other than Wang Liping's Longmen Pai. In my opinion, what is most unique about Sifu Jiang is his success in training his students to achieve true neigong. I personally met some of these successful students earlier this month. However, Sifu Jiang charges some serious money. And I wonder, even if Sifu Jiang's training was readily available in the US - the birthplace of modern capitalism - would there still be people on this forum complaining about money and demanding the training for free?!? Or trying to get pieces of the training over the internet? This is absurd. It is absolutely essential, in my opinion, to have a close relationship with a true master to succeed at this training. In contrast, John Chang never charges any money. In contrast, John Chang, while he is an incredible neigong master himself, has not yet produced a successful student and the MoPai lineage has a long history of only 1 or 2 successful neigong achievers per generation - only of Chinese descent. This has been well documented in Kosta's books, by current MoPai students and is common knowledge at this point. Wang Liping also charges significant money. Money is the reality of China. China is very business oriented now. Chinese citizens have watched their country explode with commerce the last 10-15 years. There are so many business people in China who are extremely well-off. So the main focus and culture of Chinese society right now is making money! Yao Ming is making tens of millions of dollars in the USA playing basketball and from endorsements - Yao is a Chinese national hero. Now Yi Jianlian is in the NBA too. There are 7000 KFC restaurants in China with more opening every month. In China's towns and cities you no longer see swarms of people riding bicycles, you see traffic jams just like in America. So this has influenced all of China including the neigong masters - they are human just like everyone else. Modern China's culture is not the culture from the old Kung Fu TV series - that is mythology - Sorry Grasshopper. China's current culture is business and money. Edward Richards

Hello Dao Zhen, Thank you for your post. The link you provided for Xing Sheng Zhuang (Body and Mind Method) is from Singapore. This Singapore group learned their qigong from Pang He Ming in China. Pang He Ming's complete style of qigong is named Zhineng Qigong. http://www.zhinengqigong.org/pangming.htm Pang He Ming operated a well known Qigong hospital in Northern China for a number of years. And guess who else studied at this Qigong hospital? Luke Chan and his brother Frank Chan who teach Zhineng Qigong in the USA under their own trademark "Chi-Lel Qigong". http://www.zhinengqigong.org/pangming.htm http://www.chilel-qigong.com/WhatIsChilelQigong/hospital.htm Xing Sheng Zhuang (Body and Mind Method) is the second method of the Zhineng Qigong school (or Chi-Lel Qigong school). An English DVD and book of the Body and Mind Method (Xing Sheng Zhuang) can be purchased from the Chi-Lel organization in California. I have this DVD and book and they are quite well done. The DVD is $25, the book is $15. However, as you said I believe it is the simplified version. http://www.chilel.com/cgi-bin/media/agora....p;product=MEDIA Chi-Lel also teaches this method in person in their workshops. Here is the description from the Chi-Lel website. "Body & Mind Method - Use movement to strengthen Meridian Qi and open blockages. Loosen up joints, increase flexibilities and coordination." We must also consider the possibility that Xing Sheng Zhuang is a much older method and Pang He Ming is the one who simplified it. Hope this information is helpful. Edward Richards

I must agree with sheng zhen and matt. When I met these 3 masters I was filled with gratitude and respect. I felt so fortunate to have found them. I didn't demand anything. I didn't act like the stereotypical 'ugly American'. Rather, I accepted what was given and was very grateful to receive it. And they were very gracious and hospitable. Regarding the cultural differences between Asia and the US, they are great indeed. There is a protocol of manners and respect that if not followed will cause a person to lose standing or face. Such a person will be excluded or politely told that they cannot be helped. The Asian culture is very indirect. We Americans might call it 'beating around the bush'. But this is their culture, not ours to judge. I now recall being told after my first meeting with John Chang that I was being very disrespectful by showing the bottom of my shoe to him as I was sitting on a sofa. In Asia this is a put down, an insult to the other person especially during a first meeting. I was sitting like many Americans - with one foot on the floor and the other foot resting on the knee of the foot on the floor. I immediately apologized. I told them many Americans sit this was and I meant no disrespect, I had no idea. And then I thanked them for correcting me. drew hempel, The article that was written about me in Indonesia 3 years ago I have never even read myself. Why? It is in the Indonesian language. Do you read Indonesian? I can't. Regarding your comments about Chinese girls I must ask - Are you in junior high school? Did you just reach puberty last year? Your comments sound like a person with that level of development.

""easy there... i think we all know mopai is closed. i got the impression that is why edward went after david's teachers, so i don't think edward is making any claims we are not aware of.... all he said is that he learnt level one from john chang. again my question is what would be the advantage of doing this? assuming i bought my plane tickets, hired a translator and showed up at jiang's door, what am i going to get? here's my thinking. edward learned about jiang and wang liping from david's website and goes and finds them. he gets some one on one and some basic teaching.... ok, so what. any of us could have done that. i will be curious to hear more about what edward was taught and if it compares to what i've gathered about the foundation training."" ""I agree with Pero. You guys on this forum are insane. You disrespectfully demand answers, then insult and criticize the legitimacy of it all if it isn't to your liking. You all have just proven that you are not deserving of the authentic daoist teachings - not in this lifetime at least. But thats ok, because you've already decided he's full of shit. It seems the longer I am on this forum the more the behavior seems to degrade to this type of repeated display. One has to dig and dig through tons of bullshit and bickering to find any usefull information on this site. Then, when found, its assaulted by people like shidoin, Drew, Buddy, just to name a few.... I dont know why I still frequent this place. Anything else would be time better spent."" I merely saw my name on this forum and thought I would share my experiences. I am not a teacher - never claimed to be. And yet people are PM ing me demanding I share levels 1-3 with them and divulge the exact address and contact info for these masters. I am rather surprised to say the least. I bought a plane ticket and found them - anyone can! Kosta did it 15 years ago. I did it 3-5 years ago and continue to do it. Sure it would be great if they came to the USA... but... I will be on a plane from China - Korea - Chicago. So will be out of touch for a couple days.

Meeting each of the 3 masters I mentioned was an incredible adventure/journey in itself. It involved traveling to Greece (once), Indonesia (3 times), and China (many times). Maybe one day I will write a short story about it. As I said I found them all on my own without the help of any westerner. But with tremendous help from my girlfriend in China who speaks perfect English - it would have been impossible without her. I was instructed in John Chang's Neigong level 1 and received four of his neikung acupuncture treatments in February 2005. Also spoke on the telephone with Lawrence Blair who made the Ring Of Fire documentary and book. Visited Sifu Chang for testing and corrections in October 2006 at which time Sifu told me my dantien was "almost 40% full" for level 1. In February 2008 I met Sifu Jiang. Experienced his tremendous power firsthand and received a treatment from him to clear an energy blockage. In May 2008 met Sifu Jiang again and received instruction as well as herbs and his "sweet water". Will meet him again in the near future. Perhaps the most remarkable and exciting thing about Sifu Jiang is he has a number of students who have achieved neigong. He is also very focused on healing and empowering his students. In February and March 2008 had meetings with Sifu Wang Liping. He is the most kind, sincere, and genuine person. His presence is amazing. I will start studying with him very soon. It would be impossible for me to put into words all the experiences I've had, but for me the important thing is I'm on the path and will continue the neigong practice with an authentic, qualified/achieved Sifu.

Meeting each of the 3 masters I mentioned was an incredible adventure/journey in itself. It involved traveling to Greece (once), Indonesia (3 times), and China (many times). Maybe one day I will write a short story about it. As I said I found them all on my own without the help of any westerner. But with tremendous help from my girlfriend in China who speaks perfect English - it would have been impossible without her. I was instructed in John Chang's Neigong level 1 and received four of his neikung acupuncture treatments in February 2005. Also spoke on the telephone with Lawrence Blair who made the Ring Of Fire documentary and book. Visited Sifu Chang for testing and corrections in October 2006 at which time Sifu told me my dantien was "almost 40% full" for level 1. In February 2008 I met Sifu Jiang. Experienced his tremendous power firsthand and received a treatment from him to clear an energy blockage. In May 2008 met Sifu Jiang again and received instruction as well as herbs and his "sweet water". Will meet him again in the near future. Perhaps the most remarkable and exciting thing about Sifu Jiang is he has a number of students who have achieved neigong. He is also very focused on healing and empowering his students. In February and March 2008 had meetings with Sifu Wang Liping. He is the most kind, sincere, and genuine person. His presence is amazing. I will start studying with him very soon. It would be impossible for me to put into words all the experiences I've had, but for me the important thing is I'm on the path and will continue the neigong practice with an authentic, qualified/achieved Sifu. To all of you who are interested in this topic, please read these books if you have not already done so. It provides some good basic background so everyone isl on the same page when having discussions. Magus of Java and Neikung by Kosta; Opening the Dragon Gate translated by Cleary; and Cultivating Stillness translated by Eva Wong.