blue eyed snake

sorry @Apech there were some distractions this was the first topic i tackled, still in primary school, must have been about 10 years old. I concluded it cannot be true as it begs the question: who created that supreme being. I hold to that conclusion, its one of the attractions Daoism holds for me, no need for creation, it just is. No way, to get a baby you need both a woman and a man. At least in those days, nowadays a woman and some sperm is deemed to be enough. I guess the young lady herself believed the story, I envision some like this: this young, sexually totally naive woman gets visited by, for instance one of those Essenes, a spiritually highly developed guy, glowing with energy, nicely smelling, dressed in white flowing garments. He then seduces her, let her feel the first sexual arousal, lust and orgasm and leaves her pregnant. So yes, an angel, I wish every young woman such an angel. But he was a human man with human sperm. No god, thus no virgin birth either. Miracles, I once had a discussion with someone who told me: jesus is the real stuff ( "legit") because in the bible it says that he was no wizard, that he did no wizardry. Many years later a bum pointed me to this interesting read wich, when I remember well, says that all those references to jesus not being a wizard were inserted because at the time wizardry was forbidden ( by the Romans) so he took good care not to be accused of wizardry. https://wasjesusamagician.blogspot.com/p/introduction.html those are 3 questions, I think he's not mentioned in the Roman annals, but for the sake of the discussion lets assume he was crucified. There are many alternative stories, this is the one that sits best with me. But did he die on the cross? unlikely, crucifixion was meant to be torture, that little piece of wood under the feet prevented a relatively quick death so on average the victims suffered for about 3 days. Jesus was a healthy guy in his prime so there was no reason at all for him to die that fast. So i guess that drink they gave him had a strong herb added that made him comatose "dead" some bribery from the side of Joseph allowed him to take that body from the cross. They brought it into the grave, the ladies believed him dead, he was rubbed in with oils and a shroud was put around him. during that night he ran a high fever, thus making the imprint in what is now known as the shroud of Turin. Woke up and left the grave. He walked in his physical body as Thomas shows us by wanting to touch his wounds. regarding the unphysical appearances, I am sure these are possible for highly spiritually and energetically developed people. As Jesus surely was a spiritually highly developed guy at least, that is how I see it. we simply cannot know and then he left the world/ his homeland ...to go to heaven? or to leave his homecountry because it simply became too dangerous to stay, the next time the romans caught him he may not be as lucky. Its not clear to which country he left but there are many stories about that. we simply cannot know, but as unlikely my story may be, IMHO it's far more likely then the " official bible story" yup, and jesus told his followers that they would be able to do miracles as well, removing the importance from his own person. Look guys, it's not a big thing, you could do that to if you follow my instructions. blind faith... no practice needed, no reading, no thinking. Just believe what we say and do what we say and you will be saved. I've experienced many things that fly in the face of our normal experience, but I guess Christians would think these are made by the devil. I have a devout Christian friend who is more than a bit clairvoyant but denies that vehemently as it is forbidden by the particular brand of bible she follows . 🤷‍♂️ also in general Daoists and Buddhist do not push their belief/philosophy on others where as my experience with Christians is they are always sure they have it right and we should just convert to their ideas. That last is really bothersome, I do not push my ideas on others. Will answer when they ask ( when I feel the question comes from genuine interest that is).

the person who posted this should look for some facts At least in my country social security, education, good healthcare et cetera was created by the political left, those were the first to chuck out the christian religion.

I've lost interest some posts before further, as I said before, you're veering sharply towards subjects that belong in the section current events. If you want to discuss things like this, that is the place to go.

sigh bron: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/longread/statistische-trends/2021/zelfdoding-in-nederland-een-overzicht-vanaf-1950?onepage=true 2.1.1 Amount of suicides among total population per 100.000 citizens plus the changes in religion

i think anticonception is the best thing that has ever been invented for women simple as that

Classed in the same category as the invention of fire in the home.

so much posts, won't scroll back and search for it

not only in the global north but everywhere birth rates should be lowered, there are far too many humans on the globe.

said the guy telling us all kinds of things without substantiating them

nice big quote you created , the bigger the better uh I do not give a F about what the majority thinks, i prefer my own thoughts. a 1000 times zero is still zero yaknow furthermore, in the global North ( europe, america) the share of christians is diminishing. It's the growth in the global south that makes for the global growth, looks like they're gonna repeat the same mistake. some info to be found here https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/

we are veering into current events territory with that question, crime rate is about the european average for a comparison of robbery in european countries you can have a look here. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-victims-who-reported-crime-to-the-police?country=~NLD

but not in my spot on the globe, I've seen it shrink from around 80% in my childhood to now 30% and regard that as a good thing.

well, its nice to read that my adhoc hypothesis is supported by some scientists.

no need to look at that, i've had some education . I don't think you're cold, you're quite passionate about the point you seem to be defending but incoherent and imho, a bit unsure of your convictions. Over the last days I saw you throwing out all things christian except for ehrm, what could be called the deeper meaning of the crucifiction. I do not buy into that one either, to me it is as much hogwash as becoming pregnant without a a flesh and blood guy. She may have regarded that guy as an angel, but he was not. I do respect Jesus though, just as I respect Buddha and Rumi, as enlightened guys that tried to teach their contemporaries some of the things they had discovered. To me a religion has several functions, one is keeping order and structure in a society, that is the model of functionalism. But also nurturing, giving the folks an emotional safe outlet and haven. Grouphurts and individual hurts, mourning, sickness etcetera should be addressed by the priestesses and priests or whatever they're called. as another important role of religion is offering a spiritual path for those that are ready and capable to follow it, these persons will then have an important role in the overall structure, by nurturing, healing, soothing et cetera. The christian churches have failed spectacularly in fulfilling those roles and now are crumbling. And with that crumbling society crumbles. Reinstating a failed religion won't help though. ----- Regarding the way they have "converted' most of the world, after europe what happened think of the indigenous people of America, killed off and pushed in reservates. Their kids in "schools" were they had to let go of anything their parents taught them. Horrid. some died, think of that one, some invader takes your children, puts them in a big building and they never come back or come back emotionally traumatized. I think same happened in Australia and new zealand. most of africa was "christened" and the old tribal system was ruined, not much fantasy needed to see how this must have been ruinous for the people. @Nungali remarked that the aboriginals do not have that aggressive streak that is so common in humans, he thought that it has a relationship with not doing sacrifice ( i hope i got this right, else he will correct me) I added the San and the Saami, and now add the Inuit. those 4 indigenous people have one thing in common, their environment is harsh, without good relationships the chances of survival would be much smaller i guess. They are truly dependent on each other. They do not hit their children and, as far as I know, have no forced monogamous relationships. ----- apart from the people there is mother earth herself to consider, roughly western world equates to christian world and it is the western world that has chopped down forests, burnt coal, oil and gas, polluted the streams, polluted everything. so no, I will never be friendly towards that religion. I guess it will be the sparse little groups of people that still live closely to the ways their forebears lived that will survive the horrid climate crisis that has started in earnest now. you chose christianity as a tool, you could have chosen differently. My atheistic parents hardly hit us as they thought ( with their brains, they did choose for themselves what they wanted their children to learn and that was finding out morality for themselves. ) they totally had no need for the crucifixion to teach me about burdens and sorrows to bear. well, that's about it i think I need to bow out of this discussion now, it's going nowhere

they want to rule the common folk, that is the motivation. for that the old religion had to be erased.

still waiting "it will be a shame", now that is something christianity is build on. To make people feel shame, to let kids confess their "sins". To make old people fear dying because of a hell that awaits them because they sinned. Oh yes, i have a lot of animosity, it has not diminished one bit through the decades and i regard that animosity as totally valid

I know Odin as Wodan, the wild hunter. somehow I don't think Christians could see this god as the same as their god.

ah yes but we were both sensitized to that issue, his dad even more then me as he had a strict catholic upbringing, robbing him from free time to play outside. On sunday he had to stay inside dressed nicely, on the free wednesday-midday all the kids had to line up in the church to confess their sins so only the saturday midday was for free play ( although you also get a bath that day as to be clean for the sunday) Het told me when he was about 8 years old he saw through the whole rigamarole but had to play along to prevent punishment. brainwashing. well anyways, during the younger years of our kid we had gnomes and nativity scene peacefully side by side and it afforded me to talk about concepts like for instance stealing, why you should not do that. later, going up from the first discussions about whether the idea of personally owning stuff is right or not. Next whether one can own a piece of land and deny the neighbors entrance to the last step that the state essentially steals from its poorest civilians. Bringing up a kid is an interesting experience and its nice to now listen to him how these things have found a place in his thinking mind and what he thinks of it. sounds like we did reasonably well.

you regard brainwashing as "a useful tool" ? will answer this one as the parent of a young child i once was. After looking around and some deliberation we put our toddler at a waldorf school. I liked the atmosphere, the being close knit to nature, the free play and natural toys and such things. But we were both worried about the christian background and how that would influence our kid. We were assured that it was only a minor thing. Young kids are very open, being new to the world every experience comes in much bigger than with us grownups. Long story short, when he was six we put him on a school without religion, as the endless singing about maria and jesus plus the brainwashing that went with it went very much against the way we see things. During midwinter solstice i used to take my kid to the woodland nearby, in the dark, with a handmade lantern and told him stories how the world darkened and how this was the moment that we could expect the light to come back. About the little folk living in the woodlands et cetera. he's now a grown man with a bushy beard and a receding hairline, when asked as to his memories connected to christmas this one jumped out. Glad for that. I offered him a knitted beanie seeing that receding hairline, ooh nice mum. Can you make one with my name in runes, well done my boy, back to our roots. ------------- then about the brainwashing, as a kid i found out that my most beloved aunt had an extramarital relation with a man I regarded as uncle. Whew, that was a hard one and has put our relation far backwards. As I grew up in the mostly christian society you seem to prefer, I measured behavior by the christian 'rules' and extramarital relations are forbidden by the rulebook... But why, nobody was hurt in any way. My uncle knew about this relation and had no problems with it. My aunt simple loved 2 men and has balanced that in her life. Nobody was harmed by it. But my relation with my aunt was damaged by that stupid 'rulebook'. Happily I was able to sort things out and made good with her, but that took more than a decade. you pull me in with something you regard as your job, i will have no part of it. Nothing wrong with eating meat or drinking alcohol as long as it in appropriate amounts, animal protein is needed for keeping a healthy body, the teeth and the gut clearly point in that direction. For me no animal protein is unbalanced. On the other hand the way livestock is kept, moved and slaughtered is criminal. With horrifying consequences for those that eat it. this for instance ( open at own risk) these pigs are moved in a truck and the temperature is 34 degrees Celcius. They are sick , overheated and very scared. When you eat that meat you will digest their fear ( and the other side of that coin, anger) I for one am sure that fear will somehow settle in the bodymind of the people that eat it. I regard this as criminal behavior, all condoned by our oh so christian political parties, the farmers need their income, yeah... for those seeking and walking a spiritual path the balance is different and as long as you're not pregnant or ill you can go a while without animal proteins, it does something to the inner balance. But I would not keep it up for a long time as you need those nutrients in the long run. I do not draw any lines for anybody, just for myself and those have changed through the decades. It's one of the things that irritates me, christians do draw lines for others and most of them seem to think that is their godgiven right. nope, if you feel obliged not to have extramarital relations because of your religion, fine but do not push those rules on me and judge me for it because your rulebook simply does not apply to me.

your answer surprises me as you profess to be a christian. The immaculate conception says that the conception of mary, mother of jesus was immaculate. Thus she was born without sin, what in my language is called the inherited sin and i think in english is called original sin. It has nothing to do with the conception of jesus whether with or without sex. erhm...ah here is the wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception This is one of the details that makes me say the whole christian religion is constructed and the connection with the root is severed. --- will answer the first part of your post later, I totally do not agree with you but need to ponder how to answer clearly

you do not need jesus for that, i was brought up without him and was taught that lesson with the added functionality of having been taught to think about what is morality instead of following a rulebook. Well, if you want to give the central human figure of your religion a god-status it sort of adds up you want his mum to be clean of all human weaknesses aka sin.

and after that he wrote the Thomas gospel to make up for that

The Jehovah witnesses have to peddle their brand of religion to other people to fulfill being a good Jehovah witness. Going from door to door on sundays. and I think there are more smaller offshoots that do this. I have a devout friend who tried that on me many years ago when our friendship was still young, I quickly helped her out of her dream, no way you will be successful and it'll ruin our friendship. were still friends, but sometimes we have a row and sometime ago she again tried to push her belief on me. I think it is in the rules of the particular brand of christianity she is enrolled with.

I seem to remember that before the romans became christian they did conquer people but did not wipe out their gods? but instead those gods were assimilated ? That the attitude to convert conquered people started by one of their emperors taking on the new religion with only one god? yes, I knew that, also the protestant creed is even more ' constructed' then the early christian religion was, at least, that is my opinion. But my booklearning is not great and lately my brain is becoming more woozy. yes, I've come to think that christianity is much a constructed religion and indeed, heavily leaning on " just believe what the big book says" Where other religions have grown and changed more organically. also, the latest changes into protestantism have made it even more intellectual, removed from any feeling ( or feminine - yin) through the centuries the big book has changed considerably and deliberately parts have been cut out. The whole reincarnation part has been cut for instance, some council decided it was not true and cut it out, yeah... that is what I mean with constructed, the tenets of this religion are made with the brain. The heart, the feelings have more or less forgotten. Of old the gods were closeknitted to the folk, they were recognizable archetypes and slowly changed with the ways the people changed. At least that is how I see it. All my life I have struggled with christians and their beliefs, of course I've met people of all creeds and always engaged with them like, okay, that's the way you see it, no problem. One of my neighbors was into sai baba, never had problems with that, neither with buddhism or hinduism. But with christians I always got into frictions and anger. So every few years I looked again and found more things I absolutely disagreed upon. Imho, Jesus would not have recognized what has been made from his words, from his message. would he be alive today He would smash the whole caboodle like he did, long ago, in the temple. It was nice to stumble on the Thomas gospel here on th the Daobums, as it sort of gave substancy to my thought that jesus was an enlightened guy from long ago and others ran away with his words, changed them as to be unrecognizable and founded a religion. I want to thank you for this thread as much underlying issues I had with christians have been unraveled in the last pages and now i understand my anger and it can dissolve.

thank you, that touches my heart I had all but forgotten about the Saami, but now the memories come up. some months ago I had a "dream" but not a dream, it was on the verge on falling asleep I was very old and thin and whitehaired, a sturdy darkhaired woman tucked me in warmly in a sledge, "no mother, you're too old and feeble to sit up, you lay down and I will tuck you in warmly so you'll make it safely to our next place. Sleepily I thought, this is strange, she talks with the voice of my mother, but she can't be, she looks like my sister but she can't be as I am so very old and they both were much older than me. 't was confusing but I felt very safe and cared for