The Name

Maybe....

Some people have a distorted view of the idea of "flowing with Tao" and "wu-wei" as meaning renunciation and instinctual living but is this really true? Look at Lao-tzu for example, the man lived in 500 BC and wrote a philosophical disertation which was aimed at educating the ruling elite. Does this sound like wu-wei as is commonly understood? My point is that Tao means the order of things and the Tao of man is to rule over nature, therefore wu-wei does not mean letting oneself to be driven by animal instinct. The Tao of a human being is virtue and self-overcoming in the Nietzschean sense. Maybe the hippies were wrong?!

Therefore knowledge is useless. It is better to stay still and go with the flow of Tao.

Therefore it is impossible to speak of it because it cannot be defined. It is literally absolutely nothing. It's not nothing not something not this not that not infinite not finite not great not petty not bright not dark not empty not full not profound not shallow not intelligent not stupid not complex not simple not inside not outside not there not here not life not death not existence not nonexistence not dual not nondual not one not two not singular not multitudinous....it cannot be known it can only be not known because its the only thing that is real. It isn't knowing not ignorance not real not unreal not it not me not wisdom not ignorance not abstraction not reality not mind not body not instinct not will not consciousness not unconsciousness not subconsiousness not hyperconsciousness not the noosphere not the world-soul not gods not mortals not time not space not ocean not shore not not.

Hahaha Yeah, I was fooling around to see in what ways can the Tao be (mis)interpreted... Ultimately,

Ah, I see. So ultimately Tao is to be open to the infinite which is neither this nor that, instead of frantically searching for an illusion we should accept the inherent bliss of ontological totality!

Hmmmm....this is quite true.. We need to embrace wholeness and stop deluding ourselves with dual views. Until now the human species have always shown right-brain aggression towards mother nature, always alienating the Self by mislabeling it as 'the other'. But there is hope, because as history progresses we foolish humans start to learn from our mistakes and become wise by embracing the Tao and Mother Nature wholly (holy?). Ultimately, the greatest gift which Enlightenment bestows upon one is the ability to love all beings unconditionally and help create a more beautiful world by restoring the holistic view as opposed to the fragmented view which feeds the fires of agressive impulses stemming from ignorant fear.

Hello. Yeah, you make a strong argument...now that I think of it, it does sound like genocidal christian fundamentalism.

Different ideas but not different Tao, therefore only one way is right and all the others are wrong. Zhuangzi said that we cannot compartmentalize reality because reality is whole, he was against reductionism but acknowledged the parts as well as the whole. See? ..he is saying that only the human who has ability can do the right thing.

It comes from thousands of years of history, it is clearly in man's nature to rule over nature (pun intended). There is a right way to write and there is a wrong way to write, if you do not write the ideograms in a right way then you will not communicate your right advice. Every thing is right and wrong forever. When there is nothing then there is nothing. Therefore the sage talks about right and wrong while being right and avoiding the wrong.

I agree, the Tao is not the real tao. But "going with" Tao implies that there is a certain pattern which should be enacted, this is what I meant by the order of things. There are two aspects of reality (from our perspective), one is the absolute and the other is the illusory. There is form, pattern, structure, order etc but it is ultimately void, just as Tao manifests 1.600.600.600 things but is ultimately transcendent. If Tao were 'simply nothing' then it would be absolutely useless to talk about it, and Lao Tzu would have just lived as a recluse without speaking, realizing that it is stupid/ignorant to say anything. But he did spoke, in fact he wrote a philosophical work on statesmanship, so he acknowledged the other side of the coin, namely the cosmic manifestation of pure being in form.

Enlightenment means to develop the ability of consciously maintaining the executive functions of your brain at all times thus developing a fully rational aproach to reality, free from emotional and instinctive determinism. So it is the opposite of what you describe, it is unattainable by 95 percent of humankind. ... Also, when the character has rippened and you are freed from automatic behaviour you can fully acknowledge the fact that you are just an idea thus being freed from the ultimate form of fear, namely existential fear. And the ease and inner might resultant from the actualization of conscious rational awareness also allows you to apply yourself towards working for a greater purpose. Thus Enlightenment is the exact opposite of resignation.

Good point. So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that 'self-imaging' is similar to halucinating and karma is when one clings to images and therefore suffers due to the impermanence and 'emptiness' of dualistic illusory phenomena. It's quite interesting to consider that basically all 'bad karma' stems from ignorance, for example greed is the fear of lack, and hate is the fear of hurt, etc etc... So these negative impulses, seen as 'ideological habits', can also be described as bad karma which leads to more bad karma and, as you say, the only way to 'dispell' these is to flow with the Tao, to be aware and re-cognize the essential unity of the whole and realize that fundamentally nothing can go wrong.

Thank you for the observation, I didn't want to seem a misoginist. I am actually a feminist, I believe Woman is not man but Übermensch. ..but I'll just use the innacurate term "human species" from now on. It can solve the problem of suffering about suffering. And it is quite a relief to realize that you are TAO.

Still, the way you react to that information depends on temperament, personality, ideological framework, etc so ultimately it is still determined although we don't notice this determinism because of our limited perspective, we can only logically deduct from the information available that the web of interrelated systems called life is fundamentally deterministic because the self is still part of the system/s. Determinism can only be negated if the existence of a soul or transcendent-unconditioned personality is postulated, and since there is no evidence to suggest the existence of personal souls, there is no evidence to suggest that man has the ability to hack the source code and change it.

Hi, here is my translation of the first 9 chapters of the Tao Te Ching The Manifestation of Being The tao which distracts is not the real tao Recognition which is recognized is not real recognition Not naming, heaven and earth represent the source By naming myriads of objects, one follows the feminine principle The original state is devoid of desire Comprehensive unconditional awareness is of the source The many are full of desire Comprehensive unconditional awareness is the last frontier It becomes dual when objectified and given strange names Even if the speech is profound This profound conflicts with that profound Thus do the many and the profound form the gate - Everybody in the world recognizes beauty as the beautiful And then the ugly manifests Everybody recognizes good as the good And then the opposite manifests Holding on to illusions results in dissociation from life Difficulty and ease form a whole Long and short complement each other Elevation and lowliness together manifest the waterfall Notes and tones are of one harmony Front and back accompany each other Thus, the sage is righteous without being bound by duty He does not carry out speeches in order to teach But myriad things arise if he tries not to speak Life is not to hold on Contrivance is lack of confidence The complete attainment is without end It is the infinite And cannot be departed from - Not virtuous yet virtuous Thus compelling the subjects not to engage in conflict Not having value, commodities seem undesirable Thus compelling the subjects not to act as bandits Avoiding that which may arouse desire Thus compelling the heart-mind not to be confused When the righteous sage becomes ruler, he purifies the heart-mind, satisfies the stomach weakens ambition empowers the structure Naturally compelling the subjects to be free of conditioning and desires Compelling men of knowledge not to speculate Doing without trying Devoid of method and coercion - The way is to pour out in order to function like a spacious vessel It is that which manifests a myriad things from the beginning Blunt the sharpness Untie the entanglements Harmonize light with the dust Seemingly the same as life I do not know whose child it is Emperors and gods all originate from it - Heaven and earth are not benevolent Myriads of things are cut down like dogs The sage does not posses kindness Ordinary people are cut down like dogs If heaven and earth originate from the middle space, why use contrivances? The false does not bend To find it is to forget about it The great many who speculate become impoverished Do not guard opinions - The valley spirit does not die Right speech leads to the profound feminine The profound feminine leads to the gate, right speech is the root of heaven and earth Life flows softly, it is not forced - Heaven endures, earth endures Heaven and earth have endured since time immemorial They do not have a life span Thus they endure forever Rightly viewed, the sage is the same as the timeless self The external aspect of the self is the self that does not die Who is it that believes he has no self? This way you are complete - The highest goodness is like water Water is beneficial to myriads of creatures because it never stands in opposition The multitudes of men become corrupt Few are those who purposely become in harmony with the Dao Resting like earth The heart-mind as an abyss Being benevolent Speaking the truth Well governed Resolving affairs competently Flowing with the seasons Always without strife Devoid of purpose - Holding on to an overflowing vessel leads to restlesness Gathering clever speculations Which cannot be succesfully preserved As a hall full of gold and precious stones Which no one has the ability to defend These abundant riches are like a wild horse Leading to error To succeed you must merge heaven with Dao

Ok then, I'll take a look and see if I can contribute.

Good point.

The question is where does karma begin? If we say that newborn children are entirely free of mental conditional at birth, the child's mental condition is still determined by its parents as it grows up, and their conditioning is determined by the initial condition(ing) of their parents, and so on...therefore I argue that karma is fundamentally the human condition unfolding and it is not determined by our own will. Even the antecedent choices are still determined by the initial conditions which were not under control... Karma is similar to the concepts elaborated by chaos theory, especially the formula which represents the determination of dynamic systems by their initial conditions ("the butterfly effect"). If one were to look at it impartially, it seems clear that reality is deterministic to the extent that we are determined by factors different from our thoughts. Totally deterministic.

.... Thanks. But as I said, I don't understand chinese....the translation was merely for fun.

I prefer Zen buddhism to Daoism simply because Daoism is very esoteric and requires a proper (thorough) understanding of chinese culture especially chinese religion in order to penetrate the esoteric stuff. Also, as I see it, the whole philosophy of alchemical self-transformation is basically the essential east-asian transcendental experience hidden behind a complex curtain of symbolism, etc- thus it can be accesed more directly through other teachings such as authentic "old-school" Chan/Zen.

Thanks for the warm welcome I used this online dictionary to translate it in a way which properly conveys the jist of Lao Tzu's argument. My ignorance of the chinese language became an impassable barrier after chapter 9, this is why I stopped there; it seems that after chapter 9 the material takes quite an esoteric twist. Since I do not know chinese I improvised and maybe gave it a slight Zen inclination due to my outlook, although, quite honestly, the other online translations aren't very satisfactory when it comes to conveying the message in a coherent manner. What struck me as most interesting is how ambiguous those chinese ideograms are, how the hell do you even communicate using that language, it seems to require the ability to know four corners when one is presented.