seekingbuddha

The following is what i refer to as humans of future, evolving science to such an extent, where spirituality gets consumed under discovery of various genes/drugs/neurochemical-reactions: From wikipedia......."One common feature of the halluginogenic experience caused by DMT are hallucinations of humanoid like beings, characterised as being otherworldly. The terms Machine Elf was coined by ethnobotanist Terence McKenna for the experience, who also used the terms fractal elves, or self-transforming machine elves.[91][92] Hallucinations of strange creatures had been reported by Szara in the Journal of Mental Science (now the British Journal of Psychiatry) (1958) “Dimethyltryptamine Experiments with Psychotics”, Stephen Szara described how one of his subjects under the influence of DMT had experienced “strange creatures, dwarves or something” at the beginning of a DMT trip.[93] Other researchers of the experience described 'entities' or 'beings' in humanoid as well as animal form, with descriptions of "little people" being common (non-human gnomes, elves, imps etc.). This form of hallucination has been speculated to be the cause of alien abduction experiences through endogenously occurring DMT.[94][95]"

Could you please share what you have learnt from your studies ? Cheshire Cat - thanks for posting that video on Hira Ratan. Yet another testament to the power of human body, from wise indian yogis. I am glad they are coming out and teaching the world, using English.

Now, i know the purpose of my coming into this thread is fulfilled It was to find you, so that i can follow your writings and learn from you. I was not aware that you are a valuable member here. Thanks for sharing. I see 3 pages worth of postings from you, when i search. Which thread would be a good place to start, if i want to learn more about you and your experiences/knowledge ?

Just to clarify.....your trainings were in darkness, or you are talking about just seclusion in a forest ? If you spent that much time in seclusion, I am amazed that you lived like a yogi, more austere than a monk ! I am eager to know of your experiences, and i am sure there would be lot of others here, who can learn from you. Change and spiritual degradation of humans has been prophacized by many spiritual leaders, including Buddha himself. We are lucky to be living in this time, when still some sense of morality/spirituality is left out. I fear for the day, when humans declare victory over morality & spirituality, in the name of scientific acheivements/peak. Every single emotion/trait/thought would be accorded to a gene-specific, and morality & spirituality may be considered only in terms of genetics. The path towards this is slow degradation of humans, and we are living in early stages of it, i think. How old were you, when you "saw" the energy spectrum beyond visible light ? Was your practice all in darkness, or was it simply a meditation practice in seclusion that led to this "seeing" ? Which part of the world did you practice in ? Thanks for sharing.

I agree with you that these are yogic practices that are impossible for someone training within society. This maybe the reason why some tibetian monastries train in darkness for years. Where did you gain these facts from ? Have you practiced in darkness for extended periods of time ? These characterestics supposedly arise from a deep meditation practice of a monk, according to buddhist teachings. Darkness helps in guiding the mind inwards. What is your intention ? Why are you seeking "telepathic abilities and lucid dreaming" ? Excellent advice. Anyone who has relatively good diet habits and meditation practice will know the impact of water on body. I can feel dehydration (within few days), if i consume less than 8 or 9 cups of water/day. One side effect i feel is the increase in number of urinations, but this could be simply due to aging. At a minimum i need 5 cups a day to sustain - soda does not count :-)

It is normal to be able to control breathing. It depends on your genes and physiology. For an amazing illustration of breath control, google "free diving record in deep sea", and look at videos of people who do not breath for unbeleivable amount of time. During meditation, the stillness of mind creates less demands on energy required to sustain body; oxygen is needed in less amounts, reducing the amount that lungs need to take in, to sustain the body. During deep meditation, there is also a tendency to forget/unfocus/unthink the fact that you are actually breathing (in very low low amounts).

I came across this article, and this seems to top all others, in terms of what a yogi is capable of performing.... http://buddha.nimmersoft.dk/rechungpa1.htm Of course, having lived in asia, i know that there are literally millions of fake yogis for every single genuine one. The problem is almost all the genuinely enlightened yogis live in seclusion, in india; or, atleast, they tend to avoid the huge crowds that sorround the fake ones. Watch the conflicting reports on buddha boy, on youtube. It is actually pretty easy to tell the fake ones (especially if one is sensitive enough with a stable mind and the mind is tuned to spirituality already).

Thank you steve, for the suggestions. My reluctance to practice metta (compassion/kindness) as part of my daily routine has been removed today. Coincidentally, while i was reading scripture today, i came across these words of the Supremely Enlightened One (this was uttered to tell the monks how to react to someone's speech, good or bad): "'Our minds will remain unaffected, and we shall utter no evil words; we shall abide compassionate for their welfare, with a mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate. We shall abide pervading that person with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, and starting with him, we shall abide pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.' That is how you should train, bhikkhus." As you mentioned, my practice has to progress, in order to maintain my concentration/tranquility/equanimity during daily interactions. There are so many aspects of the practice to keep in mind, especially if one tries to focus at night, on a single subject/object. As for the "never ending fuel for commitment.....", i got it through my sufferings, and i sustain it through daily practice. Once a mind starts inclining to something, and continues to incline to that subject/object, there is a tendency in the mind to continue that inclination - sort of like addiction, but in a good way and not as bad as other addictions. This is where mindfulness becomes important; because if we let the mind fall away from that good inclination towards dhamma, then slowly we lose that fuel for commitment. Like a horse, it needs constant prodding (at-least daily), to keep to the right path.

In my teen years, i read many stories of indian yogis performing various feats that are considered as miracles, by humans of this age/time. I discounted them as folklore and village gossip. After all, i was smart and knew better than others - or, so i told myself, for a long time. Life, time and age taught me humility with a stick that was lot harder than my school teacher's stick. Sooner or later, science is bound to catch up and explore the higher potential of humans. But, i fear for the day when we "scientizise" the entire neuro-chemical reactions that is the mind, and declare that science has solved all puzzles that were once considered miracles - i fear for the day when "brute science" throws out humanity and consciousness - for when that is gone, can we survive much longer as humans ? Hopefully our race can survive, if not as humans, but not as animals. Read the stories of others, to see that he is not the only one: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani https://www.psiram.com/en/index.php/Prahlad_Jani

Just like steve declared earlier, i also am neither a teacher nor consider myself advanced enough in my practice. But, i will share what i gained so far, and wish that you find it useful............. Knowledge is a double edged sword. It gives rise to dukkha and it can be used to anihilate dukkha. Change or "awareness that change is eternal" is an insight - if one clings to this insight, that would give rise to craving of some sort. If one does not cling to ANYthing (including knowledge), there is cessation of being/becoming/birth/suffering/stress. Towards this end, we can use knowledge of any kind, with the right-view, and acheive cessation (to varying degrees) in daily life. In what i have read so far of the scriptures, there is no mention of the state of mind of Gotama during his life of confinment within the palace. There is only reference to his state of mind when he was a child (and had meditated already as a child, spontaneously). So, we don't know how he felt in mind as a teenager. If i am asked how content he was as a teenager, i would say he was as content as any rich, spoilt teenage brat that you find in todays world - maybe more content. But this in no way compares to the content/stillness/bliss that arises when one is liberated from all taints and clinging. You do not need 100% faith, to start with or progress to a large degree. Buddha asked us to use our rational mind. So, we can start with that, and accept only parts of the literature that seems acceptable to our rational mind. That is exactly how i started. As we progress along the recommended path, we find fruits that are delightful to the mind. And as mind gets nutriment from these delightful fruits, it gains more strength and confidence/faith in the path; mind progresses further along the path; upon reaching right destinations along the path, mind starts having more faith based on the rationality at that stage of mind. Buddhism does not limit suffering to any specific species or beings. (Note that suffering/dukkha has multiple meanings). So, the right view would be that even a single cell organism suffers/stresses/has un-satisfactory life. And higher beings that have material-formness also have the same property. Right view would be that stimulus/response itself is a form of suffering. This is evident simply by looking at an animal form that we can understand (rather than considering an amoeba) - take a dog for example - it has no reflective capability (i will go with your theory on this one here), but it is easy for us to experience and see the suffering of a dog and tears in its eyes at times. I will present a simpler view for this question. The 5 khandhas are fabrications because they cease to exist in a dead person. Without a live-mind, fabrications can not exist. Without live-fabrications of the mind, 5 kandhas can not exist. It is actually part of the mind that fabricates/creates/distinguishes these 5 kandhas. Realization/understanding/feeling this in the bones/penetration of this truth, is one of the delightful fruits that we find along the path.

Hahaha - all wives want to "work on their husbands and shape them to their wishes". You are way more knowledgable than me - i know only 3 religious philosophies. We both seem to realize the importance of this. I get so disturbed afterwards, when i realize that i lost my inner stability/equanimity/mindfulness/tranquility after a human interaction. Sometimes i keep stability, having sensed that the other mind is unstilled/undeveloped/suffering. But other times, i lose my focus, get excited, lose my insight. I need to work on this area - I realize that i can overcome this obstacle by cultivating the warmth that you were talking about earlier. If mind has warmth, it will naturally spread to the other minds around - but i am unwilling to take up specific practices (like compassion/kindness meditations) at this stage, because i feel that these feelings should arise naturally out of insight and stillness, developed during sitting-time. What are your insights/tips into warmth/metta/joy of mind in day-to-day activities/interactions ? And, do you care to share how you deal with these daily mini-destabilizations that occur throughout the day ? (sigh, monks have it easy).

I think someone raised an objection to this view, earlier in this discussion. But i understand what you are trying to convey, as the core message there. Anything that is subject to anicha is dukka/unsatisfactory/stressful/suffering. He was not content because all he wanted was to find the truth about suffering and an end to suffering. One he attained this Super knowledge, he lived content for the rest of his life. As you pointed out, the suffering/dissatisfaction will end once a higher stage of liberation is reached and the mind realizes/feels/immerses/lives in the knowledge that it is NOT separate from everything else. Yes i did study them repeatedly; it helped me further my understanding of dhamma, but what really moved me (measurably) along the path, is embedded in the discussion between me and steve. If we translate Parinirvana as death, then we can clearly see that it is going to end the suffering in human form. But according to buddhist literature, that is not the end of suffering, since beings arise and pass away everywhere, caught up in this web of suffering. How far do you take your faith in buddhist literature ? Are you willing to go all the way ?

Yes, i clearly see what you mean. Intellect and contemplation are tools, and they have to be properly used to tangible results. I used to get caught up in them during my initial meditation retreats, and i still struggle with them (but to a lesser degree). I know nothing about Mahayana views. I looked up trikaya just now, and it reminded me of christian trinity Father, Son and Spirit. Regarding silencing the body and speech - it has been my experience that the subtlities of mind are clearer only when body and communication (speech included) are brought to stillness, in day to day life. This alone brings great fruits, leave alone this way of penetration into dhamma.

Wonderful explanation. Yes, now i understand what you meant. It is extremely tough to even reach this stage, which you describe with various adjectives (like unconditional love), even during silent meditation retreat periods. So, i am long way from experiencing these descriptions in my daily life, but striving hard to get further along the path. This is where becoming a monk helps in progress. What i am find in my current practice is that when i try to practice mindfulness/awareness/clarity and equanimity/calmness/restfulness in daily life, there is a small degree of stillness in my mind, that other people can sense. This stillness might come across as withdrawn/sad/defeated/unhappy to other people. It depends on the mind of the other person, that looks into my eyes. I realize that i lack that compassion/love for beings around me, but i do not want to force it into my daily life, unless it arises naturally. I have seen this compassionate love (metta) naturally arise only at the end of my purification process in a meditative retreat (when i purposefully direct my mind to metta). A suffering/stressed/deluded mind does not incline towards the higher states that you are describing, during day-to-day activities, as ordinary person. To some degree, the higher states of mind also arrive with aging process, i suspect. I know my mind was restless and agitated when i was a young man, which i confusedly understood as happiness and joy. Indeed, these discussions are fruitful to me. Yes - people do tend to take extreme views such as nihilism or eternalism, when it comes to views about oneself/their soul/spirit/consciousness/atman/etc. I have thrown them all out, as advised by my only teacher, the Supremely Enlightened One. As you say, Emptiness is indeed alive with great potential - reminds me of what i wrote, few of days ago...... In the beginning there was nothing, Then came nama rupa, Giving rise to everything.......... I think you have discussed it already. But would be useful to hear more, if you could. I was referring to your words " Emptiness without clarity and warmth would be a nihilistic view. ..............So I think it's important to remind ourselves of the inseparable nature of emptiness, clarity, and warmth lest we fall into the error of nihilism when we are studying sutra. The Bonpos speak of this as the union or inseparability of space, light, and warmth."

Yes, all these you mention are simply concepts that can be used to look at / reach nibbana, from different perspectives. I remember a place where Venerable Sariputta explains that dhamma could be penetrated using any/all of the above concepts. But for the purpose of my practice, i used to take each individually to consider and penetrate, because my mind is not developed to a stage where i can contemplate all at the same time. Sometimes, when i consider one aspect, during the course of thought, it will lead to another concept. But, lately i have abondoned this approach of thinking/contemplation, in light of some experiences. More focused on keeping my mindfulness + equanimity throughout the day, as i go about my daily activities. And sleep time is spent on awareness of being and aggregates + vipassana meditation + surrender to Buddha/dhamma/sangha so that i may receive the guidance. The toughest time for me during daytime is the time when i start speaking and get engaged too much in that process. My mind gets overly agitated with human interaction, i suspect. Later i would reflect and find out that is where i lost my mindfulness and equanimity during the course of the day. I am not following the exact meaning of these words. What exactly do you mean by clarity and warmth ? Why is nihilism coming into picture here ? I do not view any of these concepts as nihilistic. Pardon my ignorance - i now wish i had studied philosophy and religion in college. The ending statement is not clear to me. It would be nice if you talk more on these set of statements.

Seeker of Wisdom, I accept that the pali word dukkha has multiple meanings. But one of the meanings is clearly suffering / stress / pain etc. Of course, not everything is directly suffering, but they are indirectly suffering (because they are impermanent, and hence will lead to their change, which is indirect suffering - ie. first jhana is over Ah, just re-read your second sentence; so, yes, you see it too. But, my original post was not because i could not see suffering in feelings, but i could not see suffering in perceptions/formations. But, when i add the concept of anicha & anatta to the tripod, yes suffering becomes deductible. Maybe I have lot of work to do, before i can feel these 2 forms of sufferings in my bones. Steve, Thanks for your comments. Will add that to my reading list. The emptiness thread sounds good. From your comments, it seems like your practice is more focused on dualism/non-dualism. Even though this is not discussed too much in buddhist scriptures, i do feel it in my practice. So, we are in sync i feel, but are taking different paths to the same mountain peak. I also concur with your views about practice being more important than courtyard discussions. And yes, what lies beyond all words/language/experience/definition/description, is Nibbana. But, even half nibbana or quarter nibbana or fraction of nibbana is highly fruitful, and the path we walk on provides that fractional benefit, right here and now, in this life and world. Tibetian ICE, Perceptive and well said. I think the topic and understanding of dualism/non-dualism will arise automatically to anyone who practices seriously; for sure that topic crossed my mind during a moment of clarity, few days ago, even before i started this thread. But i did not direct my mind into that topic/words, because buddhist dhamma directs my mind to focus/stay on other aspects (like emptiness or awareness). I think we simply use different words, to refer to the same experiences. Maybe, different sects/dhammas use different words to convey how to transcend it all. As i was writing this message, something struck my mind, regarding my original post/question here........ Perceptions/cognition aggregate & mental formations/thinking aggregate, both have the nature of clinging (to past). In other words, these 2 aggregates are affected by our past experiences/kamma. This we can feel intutively. Since clinging leads to suffering/stress/non-satisfactory conditions, these 2 aggregates are suffering/stressful/not-satisfactory. Meanwhile, here is a link that i found useful, which has a collection (from different Suttas) on the topic of five aggregates: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html I spent several hours on youtube listening to various monks, but they were simply explanation of the 5 aggregates - none addressed my question, and i gave up after some time.

This is getting difficult for me, because now i feel that we are pushing the boundaries of language/words, in order to convey our experiences. What if i were to say, in the loose/common/general sense of the word experience, everything (including Nibbana) is an experience ? Why would this be a wrong view ? Surely, one has to be conscious/subconscious/aware of an experience, otherwise one would not know it, remember it, and may not be able to describe it using any sort of word. So, in the emptiness nothingness, there is no-thing and then there is consciousness/awareness of the emptiness-nothing (which transcends description), because there seems to be layers/levels of emptiness nothingness. (yeah, i know :-), this is why i think we are pushing boundaries of language here ). Perhaps you are experiencing a different layer/level of emptiness-nothingness.

Yes, steve - this part is useful. My recent penetration related to duality, conciousness+material form and origin of dukkha ties in nicely with your words, and i thank you for them. Now, I understand it thus: In the beginning there was nothing, Then came nama rupa, Giving rise to everything, including origin of suffering. Abiding in emptiness nothing, Will take me back to nothingness. Salutations to Supremely Enlightened, For showing me the right path and practice.

Seeker, I looked at the link you gave, where you seem to have defined the pali word "dukkha" with 3 different meanings. I have usually seen dukkha translated into suffering (but i also have seen similar statements, with impermanance mentioned in them). As an example, take a look at the following words of Venerable Sariputta (buddha himself has spoken these same words, if i remember correctly, in some other sutta): "And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering...........(and he moves on to explain other noble truths)" Here, it is clear that Venerable Sariputta is not using dukkha to mean impermanence, but directly implies "suffering" itself, as indicated by sickness/sorrow/lamentation/pain etc. BTW, i assume that you have studied pali language, since you have clearly given 3 meanings to dukkha (possibly deriving from your knowledge of various suttas and their context). In any case.....it is in this vein, that i was trying to figure out the answer to my original question. The mention of five aggregates in above quote, have been repeated in many suttas that i have read. While i contemplate how the five aggregates are suffering (as mentioned above), i tend not to think about anatta or anicha - not because i am ignoring them or do not understand them, but because i tend to create concentration on my object of meditation. I do not mean to say that there is no fruit in an effort spent on contemplating all 3 (anatta, dukkha, anicha) - i have spent time in past, contemplating all 3 as pillars of a tripod. But, the breakthrough in my understanding of dhamma, during the wee hours of this morning, is potentially going to shift me away from thinking/conciousness/perception. I thank my Gods for showing a peek of sanity and starting a shift in my deluded, conditioned mind.

Ran into this thread, while i was searching for something else. I know nothing about acupuncture or chinese medicine. But, since you wrote much, pouring your heart out, i wanted to chime in. Can acupuncture liberate minds ? - I don't know the answer, but i get reminded of a similar question in another thread. And someone said...."if that were true, we would have acupuncturists liberating each other". View it as a healing science. "....as I feel they may cost me my inner spiritual integrity...." - your final words sum it up, and the final words of the previous poster sums up an important consideration. There are degrees of spirituality (like any other quality, i guess) and it is clear that you currently seek a honorable career where you can keep your spiritual integrity intact. I don't know how old you are and where you live, but these are considerations too, for a final solution in your mind. Like the Supremely Enlightened One taught us, live is best lived in balance using the middle-path. Only you can decide what exactly balance means for your life.

CT - I understand the underpinnings of self/no-self part of the teaching, and the relationship of 5 aggregates to self/no-self aspect of teaching. Currently my practice is more on the need to understand the words "Perceptions(recognitions) are suffering; Formations (thoughts/volition) are suffering".

Agreed on your wisdom that "words provide only basic direction", because practice makes big impact. But, Beg to disagree on the last part, based on following thoughts: Buddha's words are not merely intellectual facts. They lead us further into the practice; provide support and basis for the right way to practice; these words illuminated my practice, whereas before i was stumbling along. Human inability to accept things as they are is an issue. So, the words of Supremely enlightened One lead us to reality, to the revelation of things as they are - not as we deludedly see them to be, because of our conditioning. Our inability to accept things as they are, is continuously lessened by furthering our understanding of wisdom words. I have experienced big impact on my practice, after i started reading my Teacher's words; whereas, before i met His words, i was a bigger fool, stumbling along in darkness, although i had made progress in practice to some degree. In practical life, to deal with suffering of my householder life, our Tathagata's words have given me strength to accept things as they are, in a progressive manner. Buddha advices NOT to give it up, but says Strive On tirelessly in the PATH. These are simply steps i must take, in the eternal path of suffering and delusion. I don't underestimate the abilities, attainments or words of Master Dawg. This is a rare thing to come across.

Master Dawg, I have been studying and contemplating Dhamma from different angles, during my primitive meditation practice. It would help me, if you could expound on Dependent Origination. Some of the words found in english translations of the Pali Suttas carry multilple meanings as common english words, and could potentially be misconstrued. In case you have contemplated on Dependent Origination, it would be nice to hear your words because the words you use are simple, easy to understand words, and have good explanations. While one part (the ending or the beginning) of Dependent Origination is easy to see and understand, the other end of it gets tricky. While most in this forum have seen/read these words of buddha in english, and interpreted it in their own ways, i would love to hear an exposition, directly from a liberated one.

DormantBuddha, Thank you for the pointers. Joining this forum has been of great help to me, due to helpful words in this thread. I am old enough to ignore the the negativity that typically dominates youthful stage of life (myself included). Yes, you are right about my scholastic approaches. Currently my practice combines meditation with plenty of reading, and i have found these two supplement each other nicely. In the beginning years of my practice, i was only trying to sit with the limited knowledge that was taught to me by my teacher - of course, he taught only what was necessary for a beginner, even though he was far advanced. Then came a stage where i started reading and found Buddha's direct words before his pariNibbana.....some words to the effect that "Do not think that you do not have a teacher anymore. Let my dhamma be your teacher and follow it as if you will follow me". So, i found great progression in my practice, once i started reading the Suttas and contemplating the direct words of the Teacher of Teachers. As per your suggestion, i will check into those references for my next reading material, once i finish with my current book.

Thanks Brian. Interesting approach to think about thinking. I have seen a demonstration of that multi-threaded thought/awareness - a person who did about 10 different things (like counting number of random bells, counting flowers that randomly fall on his back etc), over a period 30 mins or 1 hr. At the end, he would reveal the various answers (like counts), which perfectly tallied with correct answers. This was performed in my high school, with students assisting - so no cheating for sure - it was simply his sidhi.