seekingbuddha

Thanks marble. Yes, i am aware of the history behind Jesus & Buddha, because I did study human history, human evolution, ancient cultures of the earth, timeline of the evolution of spirituality in various parts of the world, timeline of the evolution of writing itself in ancient cultures, etc. These are some of the topics i looked into during my journey. So, i am comfortable enough to point out that writing did not exist at the time of Buddha or Hindu Vedic scripts. In ancient times, since writing was nonexistent, oral transmission was mastered. Disciples would remember the exact words of the teacher and memorize and transmit the memorization to next generation. You would be amazed at the capacity of human mind for memorization, once the clutter of mind is removed and it is liberated. Even today, you can find people who can remember every single day of their life - look up online if you don't believe me. I know people, who would be considered super human for their memory. Faith is emphasized as critical by all masters. How does faith originate ? If it originates as blind faith, simple blind trust with no reason, it is not real faith. Real faith originates from an experience that indeed the teachings are true, and the words can be trusted. A lie can be also experienced as a lie, and will result in disowning the words of those teachings. Simple logic says - something that has lasted centuries can not be all lie and there must be some level of truth to it. With this kind of simple logic, you can approach the words of Jesus and Buddha (or anyone else you choose). This kind of logic makes the initial first steps into the PATH, and slowly/progressively we can build our faith in these teachers, from our own experiences in the PATH. There is a state-of-mind, where doubt vanishes.

OK - it is clear to me now. I would venture to say that You have studied western philosophy, but not Buddhist psychology. Your words indicate that your knowledge is present, but practice perhaps is lacking. I am sure there are many in this forum, who understand your basic precept - i would summarize it as "Experience is the only thing present. Everything else (including body/mind/etc) is not real." Now...... Of course, wise ancient eastern yogis also understood this right off the bat. So, they started asking "what is it that is experiencing this experience, if body+mind are not present?" (and of course many other related questions). Many liberated beings understood the answer through deep contemplation (lasts for many years). Some of them are these western philosophers who reach a certain level of depth (of answers). Now, think of the ocean divers, where each diver is capable of only reaching a certain depth before his body can't dive anymore. These liberated ones, enlightened ones are similar to the ocean divers. Each can dive for answers only to certain extent - thus, some divers have more experience/wisdom than others. Among these ancient ones, there was one who was Supremely Enlightened. After deep meditation for years, he reached the point of death. But, he recovered and he decided that that the depth to which he has dived, and the answers he found, are too deep to be understood by humans. But, later he was convinced (i will spare you the story) to come out of the forest and start teaching humans. He taught about the nature of reality, nature of mind and body, etc. for many decades. He also told his disciples "what i know and have seen with wisdom of experience is like an ocean. But i am teaching you only what is relevant to you". Obviously, he did not teach us everything he found out. But whatever he taught about "experience/mind/body/reality/etc " is deep and is the focus of research by modern neuroscientists, psychologists in top universities. And i have watched them discuss. These highly intelligent professors are bewildered by the depth of his teachings that was handed out 2600 years ago. If modern neuroscientists and psychologists in cutting edge research are studying the teachings of Buddha, there must be a reason for it. Think about it - do not accept it as blind religion, but study it. He has clearly dissected it all and laid out everything. If your area of interest is ONLY philosophy (but not practice), then read the Abidhamma. Whatever ideas you are presenting here, has been encompassed and surpassed in Buddha's teachings. When Enlightened beings are using various words like mind, body, sprit etc, IMHO the reason for that is to guide ordinary humans towards the truth about experience. How are you going to explain "the reality of experience", to others if you refuse to acknowledge / define and use mind/body and other words ? By the way, i did not say "No-Thing ness" is a base experience. In fact, i did not say that there is any base experience. I uphold the teachings of spiritual Enlightened beings (Jesus, Buddha, etc) at a higher reverence and respect (compared to mere philosophers). Because, these people have direct experience with deepest layers of truth/reality......

Horus, thank you for the response. When i was reading ..... "....That is an intense experience. The most intense of which was the White Rhino...I was clearing orangutangs, elephants, whales, lions, tigers, snakes..on and on it went. Some had a few things, some had one. All were divinely grateful. The Rhino made me feel more anger than I have ever experienced, and when I cleared that anger, a lightening bolt jolted through one of my arm channels, exceedingly painfully, causing me to double over and shout out in shock...." I started wondering if you worked in a zoo. Have you done TLM on yourself ? If so, you will know how you acquired the ability (as a small child) to classify the demon as a demon (the very first time you saw him).

Read through the link you gave on David Hume. I did not study philosophy or religion in university, so the name was new to me. His ideas are the same that would be said by any liberated being. Pretty much whoever I have come across present the same ideas that are ancient. They have been well expounded by Buddha 2600 years ago, in much more detail. So, we have moved on, and away from the discussion on EGO. You are digging deep; and you have said that it is not from the base of mere words/intellect/understanding. When you say "But the story isn't true....", i feel it needs clarification. What you refer to as "story" stems from the "No-Thing ness" that we were discussing before. Since you talked so much about "No-thing ness", i hope you see vividly the prior statement. What you refer to as "real" and "unreal (the story)", they are both born from that "No-thing ness". So, when mind steps out of that Nothingness, all of duality is born. Thus, the story can be viewed as both true and untrue, once you exit from that state of mind. You say ".....The problem with mind is that there isn't even a sensation which could be labeled as "mind". There's just the story." Isn't Mind is a collective word, that encompasses. The story is born in the mind, born from the mind, when you step into duality of reality, which in itself stems from the No-Thing-ness state of mind. All the enlightened beings that human history has produced used these words like body & mind & spirity/energy. They used these words/language with one purpose : they needed to convey to us their experiences and the truth in a way that we can understand. Understanding how & why they used words/language, would further our progress on this noble PATH. If i am not understanding your words correctly, let me know.

I kind of hinted at this by saying "When the mind expands to encompass the higher dimensions, it realizes NO-THINGness.". In the space of NO-THINGness, of course none of this exists. Just consciousness - consciousness of Nothingness. When mind is not so expanded, then of course we see the illusions arising - illusions of I/ME/SELF, perpetuated by ego which clings to these illusions. But, in order to talk further about ego, it seems necessary to make sure we are talking about the same EGO. How do you define ego ? Is it the feeling of self-righteousness ? Is it the feeling of "I am ...." ? Is it the feeling of pompousness ? If so, then we can feel this ego arising, when mind is secluded/silenced enough. What could be the reason for the Supremely Enlightened One to use words EGO, ME, MINE, I etc. ? It is to describe the PATH to us, so that progress becomes possible for us, ordinary humans. I don't know if it is useful/good/conducive to progress, to say "Mind is like ego: it doesn't exist and can't be experienced". If we are going to make the division of body & mind, then would it be useful for me to say to a commoner that "Body doesn't exist and can't be experienced" ? (Even though there is a state of mind, where the body & its sensations cease). Different levels, different layers, different states, different perspectives.

Ok. It is nice to see that you are truthful. I completely understand what you have said in your initial post and have reiterated in various ways. Some thoughts that came while reading your posts here.... As all the smart people here have understood, I/SELF/ME does not exist. It is an illusion of the mind. But because of EGO (part of the mind), mind clings to the illusion of I/SELF/ME. Ego is so subtle, so powerful to such an extent that it is the very last thing that will be destroyed among the taints. When you destroy mind completely (using mind itself), that is the moment when EGO gets destroyed alongside. The subtlety of Ego is such that, you can see traces of it only when you completely remove yourself from the world. This is similar to the fact that we see subtlety of breathing or body energy only when mind withdraws from other distractions. We can not deny other people's experience by saying things like "No one can experience ego or self" OR "Body and mind do not exist". The illusion of these things exist, and is being experienced by all of us. The illusion itself is the experience. When body and mind retreat / quiet-down / reach-subtlety, arising of these parts of mind is experienced even more distinctly. When the mind expands to encompass the higher dimensions, it realizes NO-THINGness. This process starts with mere words/reading/understanding, and from this base of words it arrives at the direct experience itself. But mere intellectual understanding of this, penetration of it - that itself is powerful enough to make us start dancing with ego. So, let us always have high reverence for the Supremely Enlightened teachers that human history has produced. After all, they spent their entire life on this topic; and centuries have not shaken up their foundation.

Please do not lie to yourself, in an effort to keep up the nonexistent "I/ego".... Waking up this morning, i realized that this can't be an everyday / every moment experience for you. Because your words do not carry the sense of such a deep experience. There are hidden clues throughout this thread, to this effect. This is not an attempt to bash you, but an attempt to clarify things. I give you full credit for your studies, your intellectual prowess / knowledge and I respect it because mere words / mere understanding of a concept, is commendable in itself. We need the base of words, in order to move towards an experience and the wisdom that stems from it.

I am curious about these words. Are these your logical conclusion, intellectual deduction, result of contemplation (or reading) OR is this something that you experience every day as an experience, and the words stem from such a base ?

In the days of Buddha, the respected/rich/learned-in-vedas were the Brahmins. Once a well known Brahmin of society called the Buddha a Nihilist. He said Buddha's teachings were not good, not life-enforcing teachings. Buddha denied this accusation. Couple of things come to my mind, as i sift through this thread: There are different stages in the evolution of mind. Thus, what sounds accurate and true to one, will change over time. As a person evolves, he understands the same teaching / same words, at different depth levels. Buddha's teaching is much deeper than what we can understand intellectually. It is so profound that current generation Neuroscientists and psychologists have trouble penetrating the deeper teachings (that are beyond the discussion level of this forum). Rhetoric can take you only so far. Beyond that, it becomes a hinderance.

Would you say the most powerful people in the world are well grounded ? Can they perform their jobs without being well grounded ? Haven't you seen an ordinary person, who has no spiritual practice, being well grounded ? Practice not only changes voice/tone, but all aspects of body. Since body and mind are interconnected, change in one will slowly but steadily affect the other.

This is a lovely post; I have held these sentiments ever since I became a member of this forum. That last paragraph triggered my thoughts regarding some of the study i have done regarding ancient cultures/history/timelines-of-spirituality. During my study of the most ancient cultures known to modern humans, I realized that these cultures had a chance to live much more close to nature than us. It was the dawn of Agriculture in human history - imagine a time when the most modern technology that they possessed is Agriculture and knowledge of Iron/Copper/Bronze. That's it. No further complications or knowledge. No wonder they were much more connected to their feelings, without the need to think/rationalize so much. Their lifestyle was much more relaxed than ours because their daily work was much more connected with nature than us (sitting in offices). Relatively speaking, they had much more free time and relaxed nature of mind, without the compulsive behavior of modern-day, city dwellers I see around me. Many around me constantly face the compulsion of mind to "do something constantly / accomplish things one after another / seek unceasing success". With this compulsion of mind, how are we ever going to understand "non-doing" and connect with our most subtle/deep-rooted feelings/capabilities-of-mind ?

T.ice, it was not my intention to humiliate him or chide him in that thread. In fact, Dawg's posts in that thread is what brought me to this forum. Dawg has made extremely valuable contributions to my life, through the internet, without him even knowing it. My refutations of his claim to enlightenment came out of a good place in my heart - they came out of a space, which had the intention of showing him that he has further to go; they came out of goodwill and compassion for him; they came out of my realization that his exposure to Buddha's words were lacking depth; they came out of my penetration into his level of accomplishment (based on his own words) and seeing that he is not enlightened. If you read that thread further, you will see that the conclusion is NOT based on my opinion, but based on facts. In fact, Dawg's posts are a perfect example of a common westerner going to an eastern country, winding up with a random teacher (who is well known among the locals, but is NOT liberated - there are thousands like this). Then, after a period of spending time in ascetic practices, proclaims liberation or enlightenment, comes back to west and starts teaching, throughly convinced that the mental state that they have seen is liberation (or enlightenment - use your word of choice). A discerning/wise student will be able to see through. If you go through that thread, you will see that I held my respect towards whatever he claimed he has accomplished. Let us say, I happened to meet an enlightened person in real life; let us say, I am convinced that the person is enlightened; let us say, the enlightened person asked me NOT to show any respect towards him; let us say, i do not address him respectfully because of his instruction to me; let us say another wise man comes along and notices that i did not pay respect to the enlightened being. Would that be better than me explaining to the enlightened being that I do not wish to address him without respect ? You can come to your own conclusions - no need to dwell on this further, because the topic of this thread is different. Metta to you.

"Why we do not see the reality and how everything simply Is ?" Lot of us do not live our daily lives with the realization that there is no true distinction between a dream and what we call commonly as "reality" in the mundane sense of the word. True reality of nature/mind contradicts the common usage of the word "reality" in current world, in this generation. When humanity is able to go about normal lives/daily actions, with the continual realization of (what we call commonly as) "reality" is simply an extension of dream, our thoughts (in their core/essence) are "dream-like" in nature, our thoughts have their root in our conditioning (as humans, as human minds) then humanity would live in a higher god-like state. The purpose of discussions in forums like these is to slowly/steadily elevate humanity to that evolution, to that higher divine state of society.

Nice post 4bsolute. Thinking / reasoning / logic was elevated to high grounds in another thread, and this post has balanced that by pointing out the shortcomings of thinking/logic/reasoning. Could you clarify what you meant by certain statements i have quoted below ? Not that i don't understand what you are trying to say, but i suspect a typo that could cause confusion in some.

Stronger irony is that you talk so much about reason and logic, but your behavior does not reflect application of both. Single handedly you managed to hijack this thread, and posted so much off topic, despite my warning. I hope you learnt a lesson from the admins now. This is not a forum for display of skills in reasoning and logic, but is forum for those who have "faith" which is a pre requisite quoted by all the Supremely Enlightened humans that we know of. Faith arises as an experience, not by mere reasoning or logic. Do you really want to belong to this forum, without much needed faith ? Answer to your own self, not me, because I won't be reading this thread anymore.

NOTE to the admins - I was following the original thread, but when the split happened, i got subscribed to this split off that was created, rather than being a follower of the original thread. Perhaps admins can consider this note for future, when they split of another thread like this. BTW, thanks a bunch for locking and splitting off. There is too much negativity sensed in this thread, and I will be unfollowing this thread.

Several websites have a feature where a member can start a poll, rather than starting a thread in order to see some common data that he maybe interested in. Starting a thread, and everyone replying to it, and then the member going through it manually and collecting that data is cumbersome. In addition, it does not offer the privacy that a poll offers where the voters remain anonymous. I would very much like that in this forum, as i think i want to conduct a poll here. Knowing software, i guess this is very easy to provide in a website. So, i submit it for consideration of whoever owns this site or manages it. Thank you.

This caught my attention. Interesting read, and similar words have been said by other wise people. This seems to imply that there is nothing to seek, nothing to attain to, nothing to strive towards. Then why do we bother ? Strangely enough, the super Enlightened ones (like Buddha, Jesus etc.) did not say do not strive, you are already possess what you seek. Perhaps i am misunderstanding his message ?

Just a remainder - let us not to be derailed by personalities who are yet to mature in mind. Ego filled mind is intent on having the last word, rather than being intent on learning and being open to the idea that it maybe wrong. This thread went off topic once before with primitive application of logic/reasoning. Ignoring wisdom of human experience happened to me too, when i was younger. Hopefully participation in this forum will bring about needed change and happiness.....

Bindi, As you wish, let us explore these terminologies further, just for the sake of understanding theory, though it will contribute little to one's determination to reach Arhantship. All these stages unfold in a continuum; a continuum of development of the mind, into various states/stages. This is why you find different awakened people describing their experiences in different ways OR emphasizing one (or some) attribute(s) of Awakening, which maybe different from what others emphasis/define as their awakening. For example, one person may emphasis on Now (or fully experiencing present moment reality), whereas another person might describe more about Awareness as the predominant factor in their awakening experience. But the reality is that both of these awakened people will enjoy (to varying degrees) the experience of NOW(being in the present moment), the experience of higher level of Awareness. The difference is simply because of the fact that one awakened person chooses to enjoy/focus on the bliss of NOW, whereas the other person chooses to enjoy/focus on the bliss of ever-increasing Awareness of 6 senses. This is simply human; varied human minds have varied preferences/proclivity and that shows up in the awakening experience also. These states in which mind can dwell in, are not only a continuum in Awakening stage, but also a continuum in the other two words of choice (Liberation & Enlightenment). Note: even though train track is a continuum, there are also train stations - ie. stages that one can clearly recognize. For example Buddha talked of 8 stages within Liberation. Buddha also clearly distinguished himself as "Supremely Enlightened" whereas, you might read or encounter numerous others who are simply "Enlightened" (like his disciples who became Arhants). My thought process says that, wisdom continues to expand even after Enlightenment, thus distinguishing some as more Supreme than others. For example, even though there were hundreds of Arhants (Enlightened) among Buddha's disciples, Buddha clearly tagged Sariputta as the most wise among all of them. Thus, we see the distinctions within Enlightened disciples. In essence, we can understand that all of these spiritual experiences (right from the Novice state onwards) unfold in a continuum (like a railroad track). If you are a believer in further lives, you can imagine that your PATH will unfold in a continuum into your next life also, so long as your rebirth continues. But, for the sake of human communication/knowledge/understanding/talking/language, the highest teachers of humanity (Daoist/buddhist/hindu) have set aside some railroad stations along the way. This is for the purpose of clarifying a student on his progress level. Thus, we wind up focusing on these 3 words as the railroad stations. But what lies between train stations (stages) is an open field of wisdom and experiences. As long as we are continuing the journey along this suggested path, our minds continually reach better and better levels of peace/wisdom/kindness/etc/etc. ---- fill in all those human qualities that are exalted by the wise.

Orion, thank you for your posts. It would be useful if you could describe the events and practices that led upto your awakening. Others might find useful information/motivation in your descriptions, since this is something people must strive for and experience, to see what it is. Your description also brings to my mind another topic that is relevant in this thread. From what i have seen in many descriptions used by westerners (including what one finds in this thread), one has to take into account another word that is used in Buddhist literature. So we would have 3 words for people to consider: Awakening, Liberation (there are stages of it) and finally Enlightenment (or Arhantship or reaching Nibbana). Lot of people are awakened (according to the words used in western society), but not yet Liberated (from various taints). I still remember the postings of a man (by screen name Dawg), who went to Thailand and stayed in a monastery and declared here that he is Enlightened. I had to correct him (out of compassion) and show him that he still has ways to go. This misunderstanding would happen if you wind up with the wrong teacher (there are ton of them even in the Eastern countries). Never heard from Dawg again, but i do hope that he has gone into retreat for further progress. I quote this example to show how prevalent misunderstanding is on the internet. It is good to seek understanding of these words, but what i find more useful is an understanding of the PATH (steps & practices) that lead upto these states. These understandings/answers arise first intellectually (hence the reason for these discussions) and then through an experience in body/mind.

I don't understand the root of all this argument, perhaps because I don't remember this thread well. Did "Bud Jetsun" declare himself "Enlightened" at some point earlier in this thread ? Is that the source of contention ? I am a bit lazy to read many pages again. It seems to me that there are different levels of consciousness in this thread, which is causing the confusion. What is being said by one level of consciousness is being misunderstood by another level of consciousness. Tibetian Ice did bring out a good point in establishing the level of effort required to reach Enlightenment. While, the number of years in solitude meditation seems to vary among the Enlightened ones that we all know of and agree on, the commonality among them is the level of effort sustained for these years. That much effort surely is beyond what ordinary humans are willing to endure. Besides, we are not living in an age where accomplished teachers (who have renounced the world) are easily available. But, what is within reach for all of us is the ability to get a peek into these mental states which liberated/awakened/Enlightened beings enjoy on a real-time basis. Some people seem to get a peek at these mental states through drugs, herbs; while others prefer to get a sneak-peek at these mental states purely by following the PATH in prescribed fashion. It is my belief that past conditioning (karma) plays a big role in determining who has the genes/ability to endure such extraordinary difficulties. I have no doubt in what Milarepa said about himself (quoting from Tibetian Ice post) ...... "There is no worldly man braver or with higher aspirations". This is a task for a man who has strength and bravery beyond human levels. There are many points along this PATH, which would scare the shit out of us, and turn us back to the worldly life. Only those with experience will understand.

I enjoyed Milarepa's songs. When you say such an Enlightened person was "assisted" I wonder if i can read the source of such statement. I have not read his life story and would like to find something online, if possible.

If the book is suggesting to "aware of the negative feelings and let it complete its job", then i would throw out that book. Does this mean that as long as a killer can become aware of his need for a kill, he can let it go to completion ? Perhaps the book is being misunderstood ? Letting go is great, but like everything else, it must be done in the RIGHT WAY. Going back to your original post....perhaps you have understood that it is not the right job for you, because it will make you feel inadequate and unskilled. It maybe a signal from your inner self that you need to "Let-go" of that job even it means more money and comforts. Slowly, over time, when "letting-go" is practiced, it leads to the development of other wholesome factors of the mind. Give mental effort, to develop wholesome factors of the mind, and live the moments of your day-to-day life, feeling the presence of this "Right effort".

Too bad this thread got hijacked and cluttered. Don't admins step in situations like this ? Back to the OP - during today's meditation, it occurred to me that the confusion about these 2 words, has one other cause. Even though we all live on earth, each civilization, each geographical region, each race, each time-period of humanity lives in its own "world". There are lot of commonalities, but also there are misunderstandings because we all live in different worlds with subtly different words and means to communicate. So, what is perceived by eastern cultures as Awakening/Liberation/Enlightenment, comes to a different World, and for lack of proper teachers, gets diluted. Bud posted good words - learn the first moves/foundations and strengthen in them. Further steps will reveal themselves with right understanding and right effort.