seekingbuddha

Thanks Steve and Seeker-of-wisdom. I understand completely, and have experienced in myself these words of Milarepa. The mistake i made was to read it in a hurry, without double checking and in reading fast, i made the mistake of understanding his words.... "They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease" into my perception of ....... "They think that it's vipashyana to rest their mind at ease" Because i contemplate and focus on "tranquility/stillness/resting of mind" (as part of day-to-day life practice), my mind played a number on me; and my wrong perception of that single word changed that whole line and initiated a question mark in my mind. Add to this wrong perception, the other surprise (just like seeker-of-wisdom) when i saw that last few lines saying shamatha leads to animal rebirth....... Now, it has all become clear, thanks to your comments. Simple shamatha can be intense, and creates intense experiences of spiritual nature.......we can imagine a similar state of mind (single-pointedness) in a cat watching its prey. Thus, when we are in such a jhana, we are simply living an animal's state of mind. (I will leave the rebirth issue to various mental inclinations, since it is of no importance to my mind). Until I gained penetrations into insight/wisdom of dhamma, this kind of shamatha took me nowhere. Steve, I think Milarepa was not harsh regarding the animal rebirth. He is spot on, in describing that state of mind (if we only consider a mind that has deep jhana, but without any trace of insight/wisdom/self-awareness aspect to it). Which world will carry/host such a mind ? Having directly realized this, i find more growth and fruits in "balancing my mind & practicing", with consideration to different aspects of the dhamma - ie. equal importance ascribed to sila, samadhi (increasing jhanas) and panna (insight/wisdom/direct-experience). A tripod can not stand on one leg or two.

Thanks, this made my day I love all kinds of cats too, and their tranquility is incredible to watch, once they sit cross legged, and stay there without a single movement, for hours together.

Few comments, in order to clarify my earlier comments.... "Orgasm" is not a good simile - indeed, jhanas are better than sex and different from sexual joy/bliss. Jhanas are simply "milestones" on the path, and are not the path or destination. Definitely, for me, jhanas are not the motivating factors or targets. There are fruits that I can enjoy, as i walk along the path, without craving for anything that happens (or what i see) along the path. I did not mean to say that 1st jhana is unattainable. I just mentioned that we should be careful about our conclusions, because ego does play subtly into everything. In my mind and understanding, "attainment" means that one can "produce it and sustain it", to however long needed, at his/her will. This is a tougher task. I also think higher jhanas become exponentially harder (to gain and sustain at will), after the 1st one. But, As i mentioned before, we can certainly see glimpses of all states of mind, if proper preparation is done. Getting a glimpse, for some duration, is not "attainment", IMHO. Knowing, is different (in my terminology/definition) from "experiences of concentration". Knowing is the result of "direct experience/insight". Those who know, will know what I imply here. Part of my practice is to be careful about when and how I speak. I may have spoken too much here, so pardon my ignorance, if it is present. Liberated minds are welcome to correct and set me on the right view, if I am indeed wrong in these perceptions. Metta to you all. May you experience the tranquility.

Beware of the traps created by perceptions, thoughts and feelings. For they are forever changing - which means that you won't have the same thoughts, perceptions or feelings after 10 years down the road. This also means that the "person who is right for you now, at present moment", will not be the right person for your 10 years down the road because she would have changed (alongside you). Forgetting all the word plays, and focusing on the development of mind, thus attaining tranquility/stability/equanimity leads to more happier life than depending on external source like "a partner". This is what is inferred by others when they say "Love who you are". It is my experience that excessive craving (even if it is for getting a compatible partner) leads to delusion and unhappiness (eventually). This is what we are all learning, by hanging out in forums like this and understanding the words of the Fully Enlightened. Having realized some insights, you will automatically attract the attention of females soon (if you continue and progress in mind). You can have your pick, but use your wisdom, for long term benefit.

Pardon me, i did not make my statement clearer......When i said "In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will....." I was referring (using the word "we"), to mean "most of us, ordinary people". But, of course, for those yogis and monks who are dedicated, working hard at this all their life (using specific steps Buddha prescribed), it is possible to go into any jhana. When your statement was "You can jump into any of the jhanas at will", i thought you were referring to "me & most others in this forum". That is what i found disturbing because that could be misconstrued by other readers...... I should have probably kept my mouth shut because i knew this was a touchy subject. Besides, our ego works in subtle ways, and it is not easy to subdue it and accept the truth sometimes. Lot of times, Our perceptions are led by our ego (and attachment to the "I"). And these perceptions (subtly arising from ego base) lead us to delusions. Don't take my post personally - it was merely my thoughts (for the wise readers to consider). As usual, perceptions differ and my perceptions were clearly tagged as such (in my last statement).

Usually my tendency is to resist reply to posts like these, as part of my practice to subdue my ego. But, i reply here out of compassion for all who may wind up reading this thread. So, i want to clarify my prior post here..... First of all, i want to establish that my questions were not posed out of ignorance on this topic, but were posed to dispel differences in our terminology and understanding of words of Buddha, the Supremely Enlightened One. As you have said here, orgasms are too disruptive and do not have the base of tranquility/stillness/mindfulness. My first question was merely to point out this fact and is related to my 3rd question, which was posed only to establish that Orgasm is not a good simile to describe jhanas. Only my second question was about "knowing". In my terminology, knowing is NOT a verb/action. In my terminology, "to know" something means "to gain insight/wisdom which arises only from direct experience". In my terminology, what you are describing as "....focus the big knowing into a point...." is the experience that arises when concentration/focus is narrowed and increased in depth. What you are describing as "knowing" is the arising of higher concentration levels and clarity/penetration into the object of meditation, that is a result of higher concentration. Mind presents clear light, as by product of the high concentration. But we should be careful still because Buddha has described other per-requisites needed to classify something as a jhana. If our mind finds that all needed characteristics are present, then there is good probability to come to our conclusions. This is the most common misconception i find on the internet, especially among westerners. The people who grow up in many eastern countries know and hold higher jhanas in reverence. This is simply because they have directly seen (or heard) of many monks / yogis struggling all their life to attain to higher jhanas. Eastern civilizations know that this is no easy task, whereas many in the west are misdirected by teachers - who are accepted as teachers simply because they have spent/studied in the East, a decade or two - if we go by this standard, literally there are millions of teachers living in the East., who have put in the time and study. In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will. Look at the conditions posited by Buddha for arisal of higher jhanas. Yes, it is true that some mental states can happen, even if you know nothing about jhanas - but they are transitory in nature, and they are only glimpses into what is possible - such transitory mental states are NOT sustained at will, because they arose without the "will / effort" of the mind. ......Such is the current understanding and insight of this mind - it is open to corrections & teachings from liberated minds.

Thanks for sharing. This is a bit off-topic, but..... I have wondered if these "words in head" were a creation of our own subconscious mind, which somehow figures out the answer through means that are yet undiscovered by science (but of course, spiritual texts have answers/opinions/words regarding these "words in the head"). This kind of revelations happen to many meditators.

I am suddenly wondering if mind is "stabilized / tranquil / still" during an orgasm. Is it possible to "concentrate knowing" (into a focused beam, fixed on one spot) ?? Is this a good simile ? How else could it be characterized, in more detail and words ? Of relevance is also the question of "Can it be characterized by someone who has not seen / experienced beyond it (for example, 2nd jhana)."

Couple of observations came in my mind, which i wanted to add to this thread: Your first 3 paragraphs are the most important, i felt. They seem to be the most useful, when reflected from my own experience. I have noticed that many meditators have some kind of insight into "time". The content / words / perspective varies from person to person, but i do see the pattern of discussion abut time arising to many. I suspect this could be a hallmark /milestone, in terms of progress in the path. This "time insight" happens spontaneously, without reading about it or thinking about time (sometimes ?).

You have had some insights into partnership. First of all, i want to say "rejoice in your realizations". I get a feeling that you miss having a loved one. So, i want to give you a simple exercise. Please take a survey, using the people who are close to you (friends, family, office-mates you can trust etc). Each of these survey takers must have been previously (or currently) in a long-term relationship (like more than 5 years). Ask each one, "Are you more happy in your relationship when compared to the time you were alone as a child" ? Let them laugh and talk, and listen to their comments about relationships. True happiness/joy/peace stems from our own mind. After much struggle, I realized that one causative condition for such inner-tranquility to arise is seclusion. You are viewing seclusion as loneliness, because your mind is craving for a partner, rather than rejoicing in the loneliness. I completely understand you, because I have felt what you feel, when i was younger in age and experiences. It is better to be alone, rather than being with a wrong partner in life. Contemplate on Steve's words - they carry wisdom. May you find the happiness that you seek, and grow from it.

Consider why we trust/like/value anyone's words in this forum, in any thread ?

It is a loss for us, since we seem to have lost Master Dawg in this thread, due to some bad elements posting useless replies to him. We all have much to learn from accomplished people like Master Dawg - that is the whole purpose of this forum, isn't it ? As far as the kundalini question goes, i think you will get the answer if you read his original posts carefully.

This is wrong view. What we need to understand is that there are "levels of spirituality" and "levels of liberation from suffering". So, what is applicable to monks is geared and taught towards attainment of "higher levels" of liberation and state of mind. But that does not mean that we, as ordinary laymen, can NOT take part of the teachings of Buddha and practice it. In fact, simple things that are the basic foundation of monk's life (eg. Sila) bring profound happiness and fruits to a ordinary human life. Spirituality was part of indian society for thousands of years - they understood that not everyone can become a monk, which is the basic pre-requisite to reach high levels of liberated state-of-mind. But, there are numerous examples, where ordinary laymen accepted Buddha as their teacher/guide/spiritual teacher for the rest of their life, and they led an ordinary household life, with great peace and happiness as a fruit of taking up the teachings. The teaching of Buddha has "suffering and way to end suffering" as the core - not only monks, but every being can practice this to varying degrees, and attain "varying levels of happiness / peace / fruits / state-of-mind". Take what you can practice, and leave the rest for monks or others who wish to reach higher state-of-mind.

All descriptions i have come across in Buddhist canons have the same description, as follows; Every single person who became enlightened under Buddha, is described in this same way..... "they ask the recluse Gotama to allow them to go forth from the home life into homelessness, and he gives them the going forth." Is it possible that the description "he gives them the going forth" is actually meant to be the same as "the transmission from the master", that is described as the first step (of the 3 steps), in some other buddhist traditions ? Is it possible that we have mis-interpreted the words "he gives them the going forth", to the current world understanding of "simple conversion into becoming a monk" ? There is no description in Buddhist canons that i have read, where someone becomes "enlightened/a Arhant", without going through the step of "receiving the going forth", from Buddha or one of his senior disciples. So, this would naturally imply that "going forth" is a necessary requirement, in order to be completely/fully/highly enlightened. Not that this matters much to 99.99% of those who dwell on internet, because it would be rare to find a person here who is a monk already. So the opinions are likely to be prejudiced due to this factor, but i thought this would make for a good discussion.

Hi allinone, I view buddism NOT as a religion, but as a path for me to walk in. The fruits found in this path are the knowledge and ever deepening understanding of how to reduce suffering in my life and thereby live more closer to reality, peace and a form of happiness that transcends the type of happiness that i experienced using sensual pleasures. When i was a child/teen, i practiced a (different) religion that was my family root. As part of my practice, i read Buddha's discourses, and i have enough reading behind me to be clear about what he taught. Practicing what he taught is the tough part. But, those who practice his teachings (to the letter), attained different levels of liberation under him. (I don't want to get into description of all those). Stream-entry and Arhantship and such liberations/fruits/results attained by his students, during the lifetime of The Supremely Enlightened One. They were fortunate to train under the teacher himself. Now, it is rarer to find such Arhants because teachers like Buddha are also rare. But, for us, simple ordinary laymen (or even for many monks), just practicing the basic steps that buddha taught are a challenge - leave alone his higher teachings and attainments. What is great is that even those simple basic steps give many many good fruits for us, once we start practicing them - a much better and happier life. What i found over the decades is that the very same words that i read and understood long ago, carry a even deeper and more wise meaning, later in my life, because my practice strengthened over years - and this gives new perspectives and new experiences, from the very same words of buddha. So, i read plenty when i was younger and did understand them and practice them. But looking back, i realize that the very same words carry layers of experience, insight and meaning, which are uncovered with stronger meditation practice. I am not understanding how this relates to my original post. But, i understand what you are trying to say. There was a recent discussion aboun renunciation in another thread that comes to my mind. Metta......

Some people have long sentences, difficult to comprehend; others have short sentences packed with depth. I agree with Spotless. In my life, it has been slow and steady detachment. Detachment has several layers/levels/degrees. To the degree one gets detached, to that degree reality is revealed. You do not get immersed fully into reality, but rather you get full appreciation of reality as it is, when detachment is performed. As i detached to varying degrees, various taints disappeared in me, without me having to strive for it. Much happier life can be attained through simple detachments. For example, detachment from thought process, leads to higher insights during meditation. This is contrary to usual belief that more thinking will yield more insight/knowledge/sharpness. Irony.

Currently my practice is focused on penetrating deeper into the first 2 noble truths - suffering and origin of suffering. Buddha has given numerous ways to penetrate into these, through different perspectives/views/angles. One of the ways/methods/views that i am using is penetrating Buddha's often repeated statement - "In short, the 5 aggregates are suffering/origin of suffering". So, i would like input from those who have spent many years in practice of mindfulness and equanimity/calmness of mind........These are the 5 aggregates i consider : (physical form, feeling, perception/cognition/discrimination, mental formation/fabrication/volition/impulse/thoughts and coinciousness/awareness/the watcher). While it is easy to see how form, feeling and conciousness are suffering and that they are the origin of suffering, i would like to understand more about how perception & volition aggregates are suffering. I can see how these two can be the cause/origin of suffering. I have read the top articles i can find in a search of internet, about five aggregates (khandas), but none i have read go deep into an explanation of how these 2 aggregates are suffering. My practice includes an attempt to see in personal experience how these 5 aggregates are suffering and are in fact the origin of suffering within my body+mind. I need to break into these 2 aggregates, that are eluding my experience, obviously because of my lack of understanding.

Excellent diet, pretty much what i have boiled down to after going through some GI problems of my own. Having done a ton of research into diet/nutrition, i want to share with you what i know (since you are a kindred spirit). If you crave protein, fish is a better source; but buy wild caught salmon. There are some vendors on the internet who supply high quality fish from ocean, but they are top dollars. Its best to buy in right season. Seafood from high end grocery stores is ok, if you make sure they are "wild caught" not farm raised. Farm raised fish go through inhuman conditions. I supplement with high end multivitamins, but only at a quarter of their recommended dosage. Whole food sources are the way to go for optimal health. Having started spending time in sun, i can attest to the effects of sun that VonKrankenhaus is talking about. Spend some time walking in early morning sun in a peaceful place like a park; if possible repeat at sunset too - i have found these two produce complementary effects on body. Doing a detox of GI and body for a week, combined with intense meditation reboots the body. Meditation is integral part of health, because body and mind are interconnected more than modern medical science understands. Cut down eating slowly, to only once or twice a day. Track your calories using mobile software or online, to get an idea of what goes in. After 6 months of daily tracking you will get an innate feeling for calories. Calculate your BMR and keep your intake to it or lower everyday (even if you exercise). The more my mind progessed in spiritual path, i healed things by my own efforts that doctors could not heal. Take any supplement (man-made product) cautiously and small quantities to find how your body reacts. If you are in tune with you body, you can feel it and trust it. If you need more info send me a PM and i will talk more. Metta to you.

This is an ambitious project if i want to sit in meditation from sunrise to sunset, but i will attempt in stages. Just meditating outdoors is a great start and beneficial, for a layman like me. Though i have been inclined to contemplate space & energy flow in some of my meditations, it is too advanced for me to be the main focus. Indeed my insight expanded during such meditations. But, Usually my meditations are centered around the steps laid out by the Supremely Enlightened One. I beleive that if i jump ahead and continually try the practices done by yogis living in forests, i will stumble and fall face first, back into square one. Just being "constantly aware" of vibrations/sensations/feelings/khandas within me is extremely challenging task for me, leave alone looking for vibrations from deep space. My goal is simple - minimize suffering for myself and help other beings, if i can. Towards this end, i am willing to take any necessary actions.

Proof is in the pudding. Only 2 replies (though unrelated), and very few even interested in viewing the topic. Enlightenment is possible, but it is not as easy a process as the western world thinks it is. "Going forth" is the first step practiced by millions in the eastern world, even before they think about becoming enlightened/liberated/arhanted. This step is out of the realm of thoughts, even among the spiritually inclined in the western world. So, what we can strive for is the peaceful middle path of a lay man/woman, and pursue spirituality-hobby because this makes us happy/content/peaceful in day to day mundane life.

Thanks Van. Sitting in sun all day, on hot summer day could be very painful in the area i live in. Is the idea to be aware of the transition of day/sun ? Maybe, I could sit under a tree and do this initial practice you suggest ? Sounds like meditation outdoors (day and night). If there is another thread that you start on this topic, please post a link here, and i can follow you there. So far, this thread seems to be on topic.

This is a shock to me - did u see the movies, and him binging on fast food ? Was it mastered to look like that ? If this is true, i can write to him and find out his side of the story. Watching him, i felt he was genuine, because he is about 90 years old and looks extremely healthy for his age. But then, there are million fakes in india, for each real yogi. There is high potential for damage, as has been warned by him.

Thanks orion, for the warning. I agree with your views. I don't know anything about qi-gong, but common sense tells us that spending time in the sun is good for body. In addition, all humans enjoy a sunrise and sunset naturally. So, i have decided to restrict my practice atleast for a year (unlike what is suggested by HRM). As long as my mind/body is in hormony with the energy generated through sun-gazing, the energy will not harm my body. That is what i feel and believe. Some of the lay people (especially westerners), do these kinds of practices but do not walk in the path of purification/spirituality. There, good potential for harm arises, due to dishormony of forces in body. If i get carried away, and/or feel that my mind is getting agitated with excess energy, it is time to stop this practice. My main focus is to practice what Buddha has taught directly and clearly, and i view other things as tools to help put together my body, to further my main focus.

I found answers to some of my own questions. So, will write down what i found, before moving to discussions with others. I hope the OP does not feel that this thread is hijacked, since this relates to pineal gland/pitutary gland functions. Through my experience today, i have decided that the hills don't really make an issue for a beginner like me. My plan is not to stare at the sun for extended periods (as suggested by HRM) because the common practice in india is not this. I plan to do only Surya-namaskar, which is the common practice and involves only looking at sun for short stretches (less than a minute) at a time. Usually this is combined with hatha-yoga (stretches) and mantra prayers (meditation). One has to be spiritually advanced like yogis to get into these "surviving on sun energy" methods. Further reading reveals that this is common experience. The suggestion i read says to keep eyes closed and imagine darkness until the visuals fade away (could take few minutes). I also found out this is one of the best times for meditation. The other best time for meditation is soon after waking up, which is my usual sitting-practice. Here i have decided to let my body guide me. I will listen to my senses very carefully, and take it easy for many months. The duration of sun-gazing has to be in hormony with development of the mind spiritually and the level of purification/equanimity/mindfulness/calmness that is already established in the body. In other words, the body has to be capable of dealing with the tremendous energy that will surge when this practice is continued for extended periods. My theory is that the energy is similar to the energy surge that arises from deep meditations. From a physiology point of view, we can speculate that we need to take it slowly so that body has time to adapt/adjust/detox/evolve (if possible). In most cases, adaptation may not arise at all.

Thanks to this thread, i have started my Sun gazing practice today. I knew about this practice from my teens. But unfortunately, many wise words useful for life, got overrun by scientific education of modern world. I never practiced all the good things i came to know during my teens, which would have given me a much more happier and healthier life than what i had. Thank goodness, my eyes are open now to seek the path to purification and happiness; better late than never. I see many who die without even getting to know a higher way of living & dying. I thank my lucky stars, for bringing me to this forum, where like minded people hang out. There are hidden diamonds, sprinkled throughout this site. Questions to those who have spent some years in sun-gazing (like vonkrankenhaus): Today, i started sun gazing in nearby park, which has wide open views. But the sun rise was from the hills that are on the east side - so there is no direct view of sun, unless the sun rises above these hills (which happened within about 10 mins). At the time designated on the weather sites, the sun was hidden behind the hills. But sky had already changed from the orange/deep red that marked end of dawn into a brighter yellow, at the designated sunrise time. My intention during the beginning of my practice is to only use the first 10 minutes of sunrise. My question is, "should i do my sun-gaze while the sun is still hidden behind the hill, but there is enough rays to see the daylight breaking ?" OR "should i wait until the sun is clearly above the hill (which takes about 10 or 15 minutes, beyond the time indicated in weather.com & dateandtime.com" ? I know HRM says you can do it anytime during 1st one hour, but i know that the beginning few minutes are the best, for someone who is starting the sun-gazing practice. There are also hills on the west side of this park, so sunset would have the same dilemma - if i wait until the designated sunset time, the sun would disappear behind the west side hills, but rays would still show good daylight. After the sun-gazing was done, i closed my eyes with both palms as suggested while standing bare foot on mother earth. I brought my concentration to the space in front of me/in front my eyes, and watched what was there. After a few seconds, i could see the bright sun (though it was not as bright as the real visual of sun with eyes open). When my focus shifted to see what was around the sun, i could even see the dark silhoutte of the eastern hills (again this was not as real as the physical visual of the hills). I kept my eyes closed for about 30 seconds, and for most of the time, my concentration remained good (as if i were meditating) and the light remained bright in front of the closed eyes. Comments on this experience ? I felt the concentration/focus/meditation/mindfulness when my eyes were closed for 30 seconds. This was stronger than my meditation sittings. Is anyone aware of post sun-gazing meditation traditions/practices ? It would be odd to sit in the park, so i need to figure out a secluded spot for this in the park and possibly take my cushion and a mat since sitting on mother earth is not easy for a beginner of outdoor meditation sits. HRM recommends incrementing by 10 seconds everyday, and reduction to stable levels after certain number of months. He also says to adjust this time based on color of the retina (5 seconds for blue/gray eye retina). Is there any further fine tuning that can be done, based on age/physical-fitness-level/meditation-practices/discomfort in eye felt during sun-gazing or afterwards, and such criteria ?