seekingbuddha

OK - it is clear to me now.  I would venture to say that You have studied  western philosophy, but not Buddhist psychology.  Your words indicate that your  knowledge  is present,  but practice perhaps is lacking.  I am sure there are many in this forum, who understand your basic precept - i would summarize it as  "Experience is the only thing present. Everything else (including body/mind/etc)  is  not real."   Now......

Of course, wise ancient eastern yogis also understood this right off the bat.   So,  they  started asking "what is it that is experiencing this experience, if body+mind are not present?"   (and of course many other related questions).  Many liberated beings understood the answer through deep contemplation (lasts for many years).  Some of them are these western philosophers who reach a certain level of  depth (of answers).  Now,  think of the ocean divers,  where each diver  is capable  of only reaching a certain depth  before  his body  can't  dive anymore.  These  liberated  ones, enlightened ones  are  similar to the ocean divers.   Each can dive for answers only  to certain extent - thus,  some divers  have more experience/wisdom  than others.  

Among these ancient ones, there was one who was Supremely Enlightened.   After  deep meditation for years, he reached the point of death.   But, he recovered and he decided that that  the depth  to which  he has  dived,  and  the answers  he found,  are  too deep  to be understood by  humans.  But,  later he was convinced  (i will spare you the story)  to come out of the forest and start teaching humans.  He taught about the nature of reality, nature of mind and body, etc.   for  many decades.  He also told his disciples "what i know and have seen with wisdom of experience  is  like an ocean.  But i am teaching you only what is relevant to you".   Obviously, he did not teach us everything he found out.  But whatever  he taught about  "experience/mind/body/reality/etc "   is  deep  and  is the focus of research  by  modern  neuroscientists,  psychologists   in top universities.  And i have watched them discuss.  These  highly intelligent professors are bewildered by the depth of his teachings that was handed out 2600 years ago.   

If  modern  neuroscientists and psychologists in cutting edge research are studying  the teachings of Buddha,  there must be a reason for it.  Think about it - do not accept it as blind religion,  but study it.  He has clearly dissected it all and laid out everything.  If your  area of interest  is ONLY  philosophy  (but not practice),  then read the Abidhamma.  Whatever ideas you are presenting  here,  has been encompassed  and surpassed  in Buddha's  teachings.  When Enlightened beings are using various words like  mind, body, sprit  etc,  IMHO  the reason for that is to guide ordinary  humans  towards the truth about experience. How are you going to  explain  "the reality of experience",  to  others  if you refuse  to acknowledge / define and use  mind/body and other words ?  

By the way, i did not say  "No-Thing ness"  is a base experience.  In fact, i did not say that there is any base experience.  I uphold  the teachings  of  spiritual  Enlightened beings (Jesus, Buddha, etc)  at a higher  reverence and respect  (compared to mere  philosophers).  Because,  these people  have direct experience with deepest layers of truth/reality...... 

Horus,  thank you for the response.  When i was reading .....

"....That is an intense experience. The most intense of which was the White Rhino...I was clearing orangutangs, elephants, whales, lions, tigers, snakes..on and on it went. Some had a few things, some had one. All were divinely grateful. The Rhino made me feel more anger than I have ever experienced, and when I cleared that anger, a lightening bolt jolted through one of my arm channels, exceedingly painfully, causing me to double over and shout out in shock...."

I started wondering if you worked in a zoo.  

Have you done TLM on yourself ? If so, you will know how you acquired  the ability (as a small child)  to classify the demon as a demon (the very first time you saw him).

Yes, I'm saying that body is just like mind. It doesn't exist. When I experience my foot, for example, that's not what's really happening. "Me" and "foot" are thoughts, the inner story. The experience of the story and the thought is real. But the story isn't true. What we experience is a collection of sensations and forms (and even "form" is too much said - it is just a sensation without the story of a form). No "my foot".

 

This is what can be absolutely certain. It is possible that "my body" is living in a "world". But I can never be sure about it.

 

There are sensations I link together. One link contains the thought "foot" and some other sensations (which really aren't separate). But there's no proof for "a foot". The problem with mind is that there isn't even a sensation which could be labeled as "mind". There's just the story.

 

The Bundle Theory of the Self http://m.sparknotes.com/philosophy/hume/themes.html

Read through the link you gave on David Hume. I did not study philosophy or religion in university, so the name was new to me. His ideas are the same that would be said by any liberated being. Pretty much whoever I have come across present the same ideas that are ancient. They have been well expounded by Buddha 2600 years ago, in much more detail.

So, we have moved on, and away from the discussion on EGO.  You are digging deep; and you have said that it is not from the base of mere words/intellect/understanding.  When you say "But the story isn't true....",  i feel it needs clarification.   What you refer to as "story" stems from the "No-Thing ness"  that we were discussing before.  Since you talked so much about "No-thing ness", i hope you see vividly the prior statement.  What you refer to as "real" and "unreal (the story)",  they are  both born from that "No-thing ness".   So, when mind steps out of that Nothingness,  all of duality is born.   Thus,  the story can be viewed as both true and untrue, once you exit from that state of mind.  

You say  ".....The problem with mind is that there isn't even a sensation which could be labeled as "mind". There's just the story."   Isn't  Mind is a collective word, that encompasses.  The story is born in the mind, born from the mind, when you step into duality of reality,  which in itself stems from the No-Thing-ness state of mind.

All the enlightened beings that human history has produced  used these words  like body & mind & spirity/energy.   They used these words/language  with one purpose :  they needed to convey to us their experiences and the truth in a way that we can understand.  Understanding  how & why they used words/language, would further our progress on this  noble PATH.

If i am not understanding your words correctly,  let me know.

 

It's the illusion of ego I'm talking about. I'm not denying other people's experience (although I can know nothing about it). I'm just saying that other people and myself are just stories and there's not even an illusion of an ego or I. Has someone experienced an ego? I have never heard anyone saying that. Ego/I isn't something that can be experienced. Mind is like ego: it doesn't exist and can't be experienced. It's only an unnecessary noun added to the experience. (And I have no purpose behind this. I'm not denying (and I haven't denied) religions or beliefs, or stories. I don't care if someone believes that illusion of ego/mind exists. These are just thoughts.)

 

Philosophy to me is always about the Absolute. When it comes to the Relative (the stories), I turn to psychology instead of philosophy.

 

 

There's no possibility for free will. How could it be possible? I have never heard any plausible explanation. The belief in the story exists. Together with the belief comes the need to punish and judge, and the need to get acknowledgement.

I kind of hinted at this by saying "When the mind expands to encompass the higher dimensions, it realizes NO-THINGness.".  In  the space of NO-THINGness,  of course none of this exists.  Just consciousness - consciousness of Nothingness.  When mind is not so expanded, then of course we see the illusions arising - illusions of I/ME/SELF, perpetuated by ego which clings to these illusions.

But, in order to talk further about ego, it seems necessary to make sure we are talking about the same EGO.  How do you define ego ? Is it the feeling of self-righteousness ? Is it the feeling of "I am ...." ?  Is it the feeling of pompousness ?  If so, then we can feel this ego arising, when  mind is secluded/silenced  enough.  What could be the reason for the Supremely Enlightened One to use words  EGO,  ME, MINE, I etc. ?   It is to describe the PATH to us, so that progress becomes possible for us,  ordinary humans. 

I don't know if it is useful/good/conducive to progress,  to say   "Mind is like ego: it doesn't exist and can't be experienced".  If we are going to make the division of  body & mind,  then  would it be  useful  for  me to say to a commoner  that  "Body doesn't  exist and can't be experienced" ?  (Even though there is a state of mind, where the body & its sensations cease).  Different  levels, different layers, different states,  different perspectives.    

Feel free to bash me. I'm not saying that I'm enlightened and without "I/ego" in a sense it is described in some religious texts. Not at all. I am an ordinary wanker with a very sensitive "ego".

Ok. It is nice to see that you are truthful.  I completely understand what you have said in your initial post and have reiterated in various ways.  Some thoughts that came while reading your posts here....

What I'm trying to say is that the ego doesn't exist even in a normal, everyday experience of a sensitive retard like me. Experience of ego isn't there even when it is insisted that it is there. There is just thought (an inner story) and other impressions. No one can experience ego or self. No one can experience oneself. Because there isn't one.

 

This thread isn't about me.

1. As all the smart people here have understood,  I/SELF/ME  does not exist. It is an illusion of the mind.  But because of EGO (part of the mind),   mind  clings  to the illusion of  I/SELF/ME.  Ego is so subtle, so powerful to such an extent that it is the very last thing that will be destroyed among the taints.   When you destroy mind completely (using mind itself),  that is the moment when EGO gets destroyed alongside.  The subtlety of Ego is such that,  you can  see traces of it  only  when you  completely remove yourself  from the world.  This is similar to the fact that we see subtlety of breathing or body energy only when mind withdraws from other distractions.
2. We can not deny other people's  experience  by saying  things like  "No one can experience ego or self"  OR  "Body and mind do not exist".  The illusion of these things  exist, and is being experienced by all of us. The illusion itself  is the experience.  When body and mind retreat / quiet-down / reach-subtlety,  arising of these parts of mind is experienced  even more distinctly.
3. When the mind expands to encompass the higher dimensions, it realizes NO-THINGness.  This process starts with mere words/reading/understanding, and from this base of words it arrives at the  direct experience itself.  But  mere intellectual understanding of this,  penetration of it -  that itself  is powerful enough to make us start dancing with ego.
4. So, let us always have high reverence for the Supremely Enlightened teachers that human history has produced. After all, they spent their entire life on this topic;  and centuries have not shaken up their foundation.

Both. Morality and free will can't be experienced. Affection and compassion can instead. So it's just realising the experience.

 

This is a logical conclusion, too. And I've been searching literature that describes these conclusions.

Please do not lie to yourself,  in an effort  to  keep up  the nonexistent "I/ego"....   Waking up this morning, i realized that this can't  be an everyday / every moment  experience for you.  Because your words do not carry the sense of  such a deep experience.   There are hidden clues  throughout this thread,  to this effect.  This is not an attempt  to bash you,  but an attempt  to clarify things.  I  give you  full credit  for  your studies,  your  intellectual prowess / knowledge  and I respect it  because  mere words / mere understanding of a concept,  is  commendable  in itself.   We need the base of words,  in order to move towards an experience and the wisdom that stems from it.

How could something exist? How could morality exist? How could free will exist?

 

Morality implies absolute judgement. It's impossible.

 

Free will implies... well, I can't even imagine how free will could be possible.

 

If there was something, what would it be?

 

What "exists" (maybe) is some kind of automatic, irrational, completely meaningless and impersonal happening. No one is in charge of anything, because there is no one. There's just happening without something happening. Absurd verbs without nouns.

 

Is this nihilism? Maybe. But nihilism does not necessarily imply darkness. It can be neutral.

I am curious about these words.  Are these your logical conclusion, intellectual deduction, result of contemplation (or reading)  OR   is this something that you experience every day as an experience, and the words stem from such a base ?

In the days of Buddha,  the respected/rich/learned-in-vedas  were the Brahmins.   Once a well known Brahmin  of society  called the Buddha  a Nihilist.  He  said Buddha's  teachings  were not good, not life-enforcing  teachings.   Buddha  denied this accusation.  Couple of things come to my mind, as i sift through this thread:

1. There are different  stages in the evolution of mind.  Thus, what sounds accurate and true to one, will change over time.  As a person evolves, he  understands  the  same  teaching / same words,  at  different  depth levels.  Buddha's  teaching  is much deeper than what we can understand intellectually.  It is so profound that current  generation   Neuroscientists and psychologists  have trouble  penetrating  the deeper teachings (that are beyond the discussion level of this forum).  
2. Rhetoric  can take you only so far.  Beyond that,  it becomes a hinderance.

Would you say the most powerful people in the world  are  well grounded ?  Can they perform their jobs without being well grounded ?  Haven't you seen an ordinary person, who has no spiritual practice, being well grounded ?  

Practice not only changes voice/tone,  but all aspects of body.  Since body and mind are interconnected, change in one will slowly but steadily affect the other.

It is a bit painful and a bit frustrating to read so much discussion here concerning spirituality, awakening, enlightenment, higher levels of consciousness, meditation, transformation, and related topics, and seeing so little discussion or demonstration of feelings, of caring for each other, of kindness. So many intellectual discussions and arguments here but often so sterile and theoretical - so little juice! What good is a theoretical dissertation on enlightenment when we're lonely and mean? Why bother with any of this if it's just to pick fights, put others down, build up our own ego? For me, that's worthless and I'm not saying that I'm not guilty as well but I'm trying to be very aware of that and go in a different direction in my life. It's really wonderful to see this thread and I hope to see many more like it. But what I really would love to see is more kindness and friendliness here, more genuine concern for each other rather than for our arguments and points of view. 

 

Until we begin to explore our feelings, not analyze or understand intellectually, but simply spend time feeling and opening to others, and seeing how that affects our day to day lives, we are simply playing mental gymnastics with talk about awakening and spirituality. I see people use words like light and bliss but do they recognize and feel that what these words are pointing to is connection, awareness, openness, and love?  

 

We are collectively starved for human contact and relationship in our modern lives, we've lost so much of our sense of community and family. I think it's one of the great poisons in our lives and is responsible for much of the pain and suffering we see and feel. When I think of these things in my meditative practice, I can feel enormous pain and find myself in tears. And yet in that deep sadness is beauty because it's that very pain that is a manifestation of feeling and connection. 

This is a lovely post;  I have held these sentiments ever since I became a member of this forum.   That last paragraph triggered my thoughts regarding  some of the study i have done regarding  ancient cultures/history/timelines-of-spirituality.   During my study of  the most ancient  cultures  known to modern humans,  I realized that  these cultures  had a chance  to live  much more close to nature  than us.  It was the dawn of Agriculture in human history - imagine a time when the most modern technology that they possessed  is Agriculture and  knowledge of Iron/Copper/Bronze. That's it.  No further complications or knowledge.  No wonder they were much more connected to their feelings, without the need to think/rationalize  so much.  

Their lifestyle was much more relaxed than ours because their daily work was much more connected with nature than us (sitting in offices).  Relatively speaking, they had much more free time and relaxed nature of mind, without the compulsive behavior of modern-day, city dwellers I see around me.  Many around me constantly face the compulsion of mind to "do something constantly / accomplish things one after another / seek unceasing success".   With this compulsion of mind, how are we ever going to understand "non-doing" and connect with  our most subtle/deep-rooted  feelings/capabilities-of-mind ? 

I have to ask you then. How do you think Dawg is going to feel when he reads your post in which you deny his enlightenment based on your opinion? Are you more advanced than he is? Do you think that you hurt his feelings when he asked you not to call him "master" yet you persisted? Did he hurt your feelings deeply?

T.ice,  it was not my intention to humiliate him or chide him in that thread.  In fact, Dawg's posts in that thread is what brought me to this forum.  Dawg has made extremely valuable contributions to my life, through the internet, without him even knowing it.  My refutations of his claim to enlightenment came out of a good place in my heart - they came out of a space, which had the intention of showing him that he has further to go;  they came out of goodwill and compassion for him; they came out of my realization that his exposure to Buddha's words were lacking  depth;  they came out of my  penetration into his level of accomplishment (based on his own words) and seeing that he is not enlightened.  If you read that thread further, you will see that the conclusion  is NOT based on my opinion,  but based on facts. 

In fact, Dawg's posts are a perfect example of a common westerner going to an eastern country, winding up with a random teacher (who is well known among the locals, but is NOT liberated - there are thousands like this).  Then, after a period of spending time in ascetic practices, proclaims liberation or enlightenment, comes back to west and starts teaching, throughly convinced that the mental state that they have seen is liberation (or enlightenment - use your word of choice).  A discerning/wise student will be able to see through.

If you go through that thread, you will see that I held my respect towards whatever he claimed he has accomplished.  Let us say, I happened to meet an enlightened person in real life;  let us say, I am convinced that the person is enlightened;  let us say,  the enlightened person  asked me NOT to show any respect towards him; let us say, i do not  address him respectfully  because of his instruction to me; let us say another wise  man comes along and notices that i did not pay respect to the enlightened being.  Would that be better than  me  explaining to the enlightened being that I do not wish to address him without  respect ?  You can come to your own conclusions - no need to dwell on this further, because the topic of this thread is  different.  Metta to you.

"Why we do not see the reality and how everything simply Is ?"

Lot of us do not live our daily lives with the realization that there is no true distinction between a dream and what we call commonly as "reality" in the mundane sense of the word.   True reality of nature/mind  contradicts  the  common usage of the word  "reality"  in  current world, in this generation.  When humanity  is able to go about normal lives/daily actions,

• with  the  continual  realization of  (what we call commonly as)  "reality"  is simply an extension of  dream,  
• our thoughts  (in their core/essence)  are  "dream-like"  in nature,  
• our thoughts have their root in our conditioning (as humans, as human minds) 

then humanity would live in a higher god-like  state.   The purpose of discussions in  forums like these is to slowly/steadily  elevate humanity  to  that  evolution,  to that  higher  divine  state of  society.

Nice post 4bsolute.   Thinking / reasoning / logic  was elevated to high grounds in another thread, and this post has balanced that by pointing out the  shortcomings of thinking/logic/reasoning.  Could you clarify what you meant by certain statements i have quoted below ?  Not that i don't understand what you are trying to say, but i suspect a typo that could cause confusion in some.

Thankfully our bodies get tired and we sleep, there a reset happens, because our consciousness exists our mental body .......

.......Stop creating means stepping out of our mental body, like we do at night, but mostly unconsciously. .......

I have seen this commonality among those who have spiritual practices.  There seems to be lot of emotional capacity in them.  The words of the African English actor in the movie Species comes to my mind.  When asked how can he sense where the Species is, he says "I feel things deeply, thats all".   So, i wonder how many of you here have noticed this ability to feel deep feelings of OTHERS.

For  example,  do you sense and feel as strongly as the person on TV (reality show) feels ? Do you feel it to the extent that tears roll down your eyes, when you see someone in real world suffering deeply (say in a funeral or hospital etc.) ?  Give some description of how deep the feeling of others is  sensed by you - just saying that "Yes, i also feel it deeply" is not enough of a description for others to understand you.

The irony is strong here.

Stronger irony is that you talk so much about reason and logic, but your behavior does not reflect application of both.  Single handedly you managed to hijack  this thread, and posted so much off topic, despite my warning.  I hope you learnt a lesson from the admins now.  

This is not a forum for  display of skills in reasoning and logic,  but is forum for those who have "faith"  which is a pre requisite quoted by all the Supremely Enlightened humans that we know of.  Faith arises as an experience, not by mere reasoning or logic.  Do you really want to belong to this forum, without much needed faith ? Answer to your own self, not me, because I won't be reading this thread anymore.

NOTE to the admins - I was following the original thread, but when the split happened, i got subscribed to this split  off that was created, rather than being a follower of the original thread.   Perhaps admins can consider this note for future, when they split of another thread like this.

BTW,  thanks a bunch for locking and splitting off.  There is too much negativity sensed in this thread,  and I will be unfollowing this thread.

There is a great little book written by John Blofeld, who visited China in the 1930's and 40's - researching Buddhism - and Taoism. 

 

After commenting to a Taoist recluse in the White Cloud Monastery that "...of the many wise hermits encountered during my wanderings, the few who had betrayed signs of being, as I fancied, closest to illumination had almost all been Buddhist." - the recluse wondered if even one of them surpassed the Taoist recluse known as Tseng Lao-weng. 

 

Arrangements were made for Blofeld to meet Lao-weng, what follows is part of their conversation.

 

***

 

"Venerable, it is just that, as most of my teachers are Buddhist, I am ignorant about what Taoists mean by such terms as wisdom and illumination, and about their methods of approaching the Tao." 

 

He laughed. "How strange. Can there be two kinds of wisdom, two kinds of illumination, Taoist and Buddhist? Surely the experience of truth must be the same for all? As to approaching the Tao, be sure that demons and executioners, let alone Buddhists, are as close to it as can be. The one impossible thing is to get a finger's breadth away from it. Do you suppose that some people are nearer to it than others? Is a bird closer to the air than a tortoise or a cat? The Tao is closer to you than the nose on your face; it is only because you can tweak your nose that you think otherwise. Asking about our approach to the Tao is like asking a deep-sea fish how it approaches the water. It is just a matter of recognizing what has been inside, outside and all around from the first. Do you understand?" 

 

"Yes, I believe I do. Certainly my Buddhist teachers have taught me that there is no attaining liberation, but only attaining recognition of what one has always been from the first." 

 

"Excellent! Your teachers, then, are true sages. You are a worthy disciple, so why brave the bitter cold to visit an ordinary old fellow? You would have learnt as much at your own fireside." 

 

"Venerable, please don’t laugh at me! I accept your teaching that true sages have but the one goal. Still, here in China, there are Buddhists and there are also Taoists. Manifestly they differ; since the goal is one, the distinction must lie in their methods of approach" 

 

"So you are hungry not for wisdom but for knowledge! What a pity! Wisdom is almost as satisfying as good millet-gruel, whereas knowledge has less body to it than tepid water poured over old tea-leaves; but if that is the fare you have come for, I can give you as much as your mistreated belly will hold. What sort of old tea-leaves do Buddhists use, I wonder! We Taoists use all sorts. Some swallow medicine-balls as big as pigeon's eggs or drink tonics by the jug, live upon unappetizing diets, take baths at intervals governed by esoteric numbers, breathe in and out like asthmatic dragons, or jump about like Manchu bannermen hardening themselves for battle - all this discomfort just for the sake of a few extra decades of life! And why? To gain more time to find what has never been lost! 

 

And what of those pious recluses who rattle mallets against wooden-fish drums from dusk to dawn, groaning out liturgies like cholera-patients excreting watery dung? They are penitents longing to rid themselves of a burden they never had. These people do everything imaginable, including swallowing pills made from the vital fluids secreted by the opposite sex and lighting fires in their bellies to make the alchemic cauldrons boil. I shall have to talk of such follies for hours, if you really want a full list of Taoist methods. These method-users resemble mountain streams a thousand leagues from the sea. Ah, how they chatter and gurgle, bubble and boil, rush and eddy, plunging over precipices in spectacular fashion! How angrily they pound against the boulders and suck down their prey in treacherous whirl-pools! But, as the streams broaden, they grow quieter and more purposeful. They become rivers - ah, how calm, how silent! How majestically they sweep towards their goal, giving no impression of swiftness and, as they near the ocean, seeming not to move at all! 

 

While noisy mountain streams are reminiscent of people chattering about the Tao and showing-off spectacular methods, rivers remind one of experienced men, taciturn, doing little, but doing it decisively; outwardly still, yet sweeping forward faster than you know. Your teachers have offered you wisdom; they why waste time acquiring knowledge? Methods! Approaches! Need the junk-master steering towards the sea, with the sales of his vessel billowing in the wind, bother his head about alternative modes of propulsion - oars, paddles, punt-poles, tow-ropes, engines and all the rest? Any sort of vessel, unless it founders or pitches you overboard, is good enough to take you to the one and only sea." 

 

The secret and the sublime: Taoist Mysteries and Magic ~ John Blofeld

This caught my attention. Interesting read, and similar words have been said by other wise people. This seems to imply that there is nothing to seek, nothing to attain to, nothing to strive towards.   Then why do we bother ?  Strangely enough, the super Enlightened ones (like Buddha, Jesus etc.)  did not say do not strive, you are already possess what you seek.  Perhaps i am misunderstanding his message ?

Several websites have a feature where a member can start a poll, rather than starting a thread in order to see some common data that he maybe interested in.  Starting a thread, and everyone replying to it, and then the member going through it manually and collecting that data is cumbersome. In addition, it does not offer the privacy that a poll offers where the voters remain anonymous. 

I would very much like that in this forum, as i think i want to conduct a poll here.  Knowing software, i guess this is very easy to provide in a website. So, i submit it for consideration of whoever owns this site or manages it.  Thank you.

Just  a remainder - let us not to be derailed by  personalities who are yet to mature in mind.   Ego filled mind is  intent on having the last word,  rather than being intent on learning and being open to the idea that it maybe wrong.  This thread went off topic once before  with primitive application of logic/reasoning.  Ignoring wisdom of human experience happened to me too, when i was younger.   Hopefully participation in this forum will bring about needed change and happiness.....

 

I like your contribution here, more clarity regarding these states and various stages could only improve understanding. Please feel free to expand on this.

 

I agree that the PATH is the real point

Bindi, 

    As you wish, let us explore  these terminologies further, just for the sake of  understanding theory, though it will contribute little to one's determination   to  reach Arhantship.   All these stages unfold in a continuum;  a continuum of development of the mind, into various states/stages.  This is why you find different awakened people  describing their experiences in different ways  OR  emphasizing one (or some) attribute(s) of Awakening,  which maybe different from what others emphasis/define  as their awakening.  

For example, one person may emphasis on Now (or fully experiencing present moment reality),  whereas another person  might describe more about Awareness as the predominant factor in their awakening experience.  But the reality is that both of these awakened people will  enjoy (to varying degrees)

• the experience of  NOW(being in the present moment),  
• the experience of   higher level of Awareness.  

The difference is simply because of the fact that one awakened person chooses to enjoy/focus on the bliss of NOW, whereas the other person chooses to enjoy/focus on the bliss of  ever-increasing Awareness of 6 senses.   This is simply human;  varied human minds have varied preferences/proclivity  and that shows up in the awakening experience also. 

These states in which mind can dwell in, are not only a continuum in Awakening stage,  but also a continuum in the other two words of choice (Liberation & Enlightenment).   Note:   even though  train track is a continuum,  there are also  train stations - ie.  stages  that one can clearly recognize.  For example Buddha talked of 8 stages within  Liberation.   Buddha also clearly  distinguished himself as "Supremely Enlightened" whereas, you might read or encounter numerous others who are  simply  "Enlightened" (like his disciples who became Arhants).   My thought process  says that, wisdom continues to expand even after Enlightenment, thus distinguishing some as more Supreme than others.  For example,  even though there were hundreds of Arhants (Enlightened)  among Buddha's disciples,  Buddha clearly tagged  Sariputta  as the most wise among all of them.   Thus, we see the distinctions within  Enlightened disciples.

In essence,  we can understand that all of these spiritual experiences (right from the Novice state onwards) unfold in a continuum  (like a railroad track).  If you are a believer in  further lives,  you can imagine  that your PATH  will unfold in a continuum into your next life also,  so long as your rebirth continues.   But, for the sake of human communication/knowledge/understanding/talking/language,  the highest teachers of humanity (Daoist/buddhist/hindu)  have   set aside  some  railroad stations  along the way.  This is for the purpose of clarifying  a student  on his progress level.   Thus,  we wind up focusing on these 3 words as the railroad stations.  But what lies between  train stations (stages)  is  an open  field  of  wisdom and experiences.

As long as we are continuing the journey along this suggested path, our minds continually  reach better and better levels of peace/wisdom/kindness/etc/etc.   ----  fill in all those  human qualities that are exalted by the  wise.

Orion,  thank you for your posts.  It would be useful if you could describe the events and practices that led upto your awakening.  Others might find useful information/motivation in your descriptions, since this is something people must strive for and experience, to see what it is.  Your description also brings to my mind another topic that is relevant in this thread.

From what i have seen in many descriptions used by westerners (including what one finds in this thread),  one has to take into account another word that is used in Buddhist literature.   So we would have 3 words  for people  to consider:  Awakening,  Liberation (there are stages of it) and finally  Enlightenment (or Arhantship or reaching Nibbana).  Lot of people are  awakened (according to the words used in western society),  but not yet Liberated (from various taints).  I still remember the postings of a man (by screen name Dawg), who went to Thailand and stayed in a monastery  and declared here that he is Enlightened.  I had to correct him (out of compassion) and show him that he still has ways to go.  This misunderstanding would happen if you wind up with the wrong teacher (there are ton of them even in the Eastern countries). Never heard from Dawg again, but i do hope that he has gone into retreat for further progress.  I quote this example to show how prevalent misunderstanding is on the internet. 

It is good to seek understanding of these words, but what i find more useful is an understanding of the PATH (steps & practices)  that lead upto  these states.  These understandings/answers  arise first intellectually (hence the reason for these discussions) and then through an experience in body/mind.   

I don't  understand  the root  of  all this argument,  perhaps  because  I  don't  remember this thread well.  Did  "Bud  Jetsun"  declare  himself  "Enlightened"  at some point earlier  in this thread ?  Is that the source  of contention ?  I am a bit lazy to read many pages again.   It seems to  me that  there are different  levels  of consciousness   in this thread, which is causing the confusion.   What is being said by  one level of consciousness  is being misunderstood by another level of consciousness. 

Tibetian Ice did bring out a good point in establishing the level of effort required to reach  Enlightenment.  While, the number of years in solitude meditation seems to vary  among  the Enlightened ones that we all know of and agree on,  the commonality among them is the level of effort  sustained for these years.   That much effort surely is beyond what ordinary humans are willing to endure.  Besides, we are not living in an age where  accomplished teachers (who have renounced the world) are easily  available.  But, what is within reach for all of us is the ability to get a peek into these mental states which liberated/awakened/Enlightened  beings  enjoy  on a real-time basis.  Some people  seem to get a peek at these mental states through  drugs, herbs;  while others  prefer  to get a sneak-peek  at these mental  states purely  by following the PATH in prescribed  fashion.  

It is my belief that  past conditioning (karma) plays a big role in determining who has the genes/ability  to endure  such extraordinary  difficulties.  I have no doubt in what Milarepa said about himself (quoting from Tibetian Ice post) ...... "There is no worldly man braver or with higher aspirations".   This is  a task for a man who has strength and bravery  beyond  human levels. There are many points along this PATH, which would scare the shit out of us,  and turn us back to the worldly life.   Only those  with experience will understand.

Some synergistic plants cleared the path. This is also how Milarepa and others were assited. (Needle tea etc) 

I enjoyed Milarepa's  songs.  When you say such an Enlightened person was "assisted"  I wonder if i can read the source of such statement.  I have not read his life story and would like to find something online, if possible.  

If the book is suggesting  to  "aware of the negative feelings and let it complete its job",  then i would throw out that book.  Does this mean that as  long as  a  killer can become aware of his need for a kill, he can let it go to completion ?  Perhaps the book is being  misunderstood ?  Letting go is great, but like everything else, it must be done in the  RIGHT  WAY. 

Going back to your original post....perhaps you have understood  that it is not the right job for you, because it will make you feel inadequate and unskilled.  It maybe a signal from your inner self that you need to  "Let-go"  of that job  even it means more money  and comforts.  Slowly, over time, when "letting-go" is practiced,  it leads to the development of other wholesome factors of the mind.  Give  mental effort,  to develop  wholesome factors of the mind, and live the moments of your day-to-day life, feeling the presence of this  "Right effort".

Too bad this thread got hijacked and cluttered.   Don't  admins  step  in situations like this ?  

Back to the OP - during today's meditation, it occurred to me that  the confusion about  these 2 words,  has one other cause.  Even though we all live on earth,  each civilization, each geographical region, each race,  each  time-period of humanity  lives in its own  "world".  There are lot of commonalities, but also there are misunderstandings  because we all live in  different worlds  with subtly different words and means to communicate.  So, what is perceived by eastern cultures as  Awakening/Liberation/Enlightenment,  comes to a different World,  and for lack of proper teachers, gets diluted. 

Bud posted good words - learn the first moves/foundations  and strengthen in them.  Further steps will reveal themselves with right understanding and right effort.