seekingbuddha

I have done darkness trainings. Also have done training living in forest outside. I have been training for some years, with modern unreal living put like more of a sideline, an extra little thing. I do recognize that I did something "unusual" but every day makes sense to me perfectly, and I do not feel like any trade has been made or that I am odd or anything like that. Really, it's the opposite.

 

I'm trying to write about it in this forum. Very interesting to see the subjects people are writing about online.

Now, i know the purpose of my coming into this thread is fulfilled   It was to find you, so that i can follow your writings and learn from you. I was not aware that you are a valuable member here.  Thanks for sharing. I see 3 pages worth of postings from you, when i search. Which thread would be a good place to start, if  i want to learn more about you and your experiences/knowledge ?

Re:

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"Have you practiced in darkness for extended periods of time ?  These characterestics supposedly arise from a deep meditation practice of a monk, according to buddhist teachings. Darkness helps in guiding the mind inwards."

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I have studied darkness training since the mid-70s, and have done two extended trainings of 3 years and 13+ years.

Just to clarify.....your trainings were in darkness, or you are talking about just seclusion in a forest ? If  you spent that much time in seclusion, 

1. I am amazed that you lived like a yogi, more austere than a monk !
2. I am eager to know of your experiences, and i am sure there would be lot of others here, who can learn from you.

But this is not part of the concerns of people today. Just going out of all this society for a few years, seeing only animals and plants and maybe one or two or a few people doing the same thing, and then going back - would be monumental for most people - even if they did no training at all and just found out how to live like that.

 

What is going on now is not really human life, but "something else".

Change and spiritual degradation of humans has been prophacized by many spiritual leaders, including Buddha himself. We are lucky to be living in this time, when still some sense of morality/spirituality is left out. I fear for the day, when humans declare victory over morality & spirituality,  in the name of scientific acheivements/peak.  Every single emotion/trait/thought  would be accorded to a gene-specific, and morality & spirituality may be considered only in terms of genetics. The path towards this is slow degradation of humans, and we are living in early stages of it, i think.

Darkness training has several effects. One is to develop sensitivity to vibrations just at and beyond visible light, including vibration from deep space. The pineal gland is involved with translating energy into mental imagery and thought in human terms. This is a form of "psychic" knowing.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

How old were you,  when you "saw"  the energy spectrum beyond visible light ? Was your practice all in darkness, or was it simply a meditation practice in seclusion that led to this "seeing" ?  Which part of the world  did you practice in ?  Thanks for sharing.

Re:

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"Krishna has blue skin and I think this maybe because serotonin is increased by blue light - science uses blue lights to naturally increase serotonin in people."

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This higher frequency, ultraviolet, is representing orientation. This is approached in darkness training via the other end of the spectrum - infrared. By continual exposure in the infrared end of the spectrum, a kind of sensitization occurs to ultraviolet and beyond - higher frequency light.

 

Coming out of 7+ years of dark training, you actually see almost everything as blue when you return to the full normal spectrum. After 14+ years, this becomes a stable, premanent condition that is under conscious control. In other words, you have trained to see this part of the spectrum, and you do.

 

In the dark training, after this shift occurs, you start seeing energy as if it were steam/light, like steam from a water vaporizer, coming from and going into objects, people, places, etc. It may be that the visual spectrum training sensitizes you to this. Later, out of the dark training, this energy is even moreso visible than it was in the training.

 

Preparation for this training is too involved for almost everyone today. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the aims and objectives of modern society, and virtually no persons in developed countries are in the condition to begin it with any productive trajectory. But for those willing and able to completely change their life orientation as just one early prerequisite, this training is still possible.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

I agree with you that these are yogic practices that are impossible for someone training within society. This maybe the reason why some tibetian monastries train in darkness for years.  Where did you gain these facts from ? Have you practiced in darkness for extended periods of time ?  These characterestics supposedly arise from a deep meditation practice of a monk, according to buddhist teachings. Darkness helps in guiding the mind inwards.

Thank you guys so much for your responses. I've done some Google searches and it seems like the Taoist versions of these practices do exist but are mostly obscure. Lucid dreaming, yoga nidra and Tibetan dream yoga on the other hand are more easily accessible for some reason and I would be more than happy to indulge myself in the latter two. I'm just a little bit weary of mixing different systems togethor. I've watched an interview with Michael Winn and he seems to suggest that the Taoist versions of the practices are much more effortless and extremely effective. I've found some information on Shui Gong but I do not know on how to further pursue the practice. I'm also interested in it as it suggests learning telepathy (something else I'm interested in) can be learned. Does anyone have any more information on this and how I can pursue learning the skill of taoist dream yoga and yoga nidra from teachers who are legit and qualified?

What is your intention ? Why are you seeking "telepathic abilities  and  lucid dreaming" ? 

Hm bowl of water... being well hydrated helps too

Excellent advice.  Anyone who has relatively good diet habits and meditation practice will know the impact of water on body. I can feel dehydration (within few days), if i consume less than  8 or 9 cups  of water/day. One side effect  i feel is the increase in number of urinations, but this could be simply due to aging.  At a minimum i need 5 cups a day to sustain - soda does not count :-)

Interesting.. I have had an experience in meditation where for several minutes I didn't feel the need to breathe. Makes me think that yogi's state is attainable, in theory.

It is normal to be able to control breathing.  It depends on your genes and physiology. For an amazing illustration of breath control,  google  "free diving record in deep sea",  and look at videos of people who do not breath for unbeleivable amount of time.  During meditation, the stillness of mind creates less demands on energy required to sustain body; oxygen is needed in less amounts, reducing the amount that lungs need to take in, to sustain the body.  During deep meditation, there is also a tendency to forget/unfocus/unthink   the fact that you are actually breathing (in very low low amounts).

All descriptions i have come across in Buddhist  canons have the same description, as follows;  Every single person who became enlightened under Buddha, is described  in this same way.....

"they ask the
recluse Gotama to allow them to go forth from the home life into
homelessness, and he gives them the going forth."

Is it possible that the description  "he gives them the going forth"  is actually  meant to be the same as "the transmission from the master", that is described as the first step (of the 3 steps), in some other buddhist traditions ?  Is it possible  that we have mis-interpreted the words  "he gives them the going forth",  to the current world understanding of  "simple conversion into becoming a monk" ?  There is no description in Buddhist canons that i have read, where someone becomes "enlightened/a Arhant", without  going through the step of  "receiving  the going forth",  from Buddha  or one of his senior  disciples.  So,  this would naturally imply that "going forth"  is a necessary requirement,  in order to be completely/fully/highly  enlightened.  Not that this matters much to 99.99%  of  those who dwell on internet, because  it would be rare to find a person here who is a monk already.  So the opinions are likely to be prejudiced due to this factor, but i thought this would make for a good discussion.

I came across  this  article, and this seems to top all others, in terms of what a yogi is capable of performing....

http://buddha.nimmersoft.dk/rechungpa1.htm

Of course, having lived in asia, i know that there are literally millions of fake yogis  for every single genuine one.  The problem is almost all the genuinely enlightened yogis  live  in seclusion, in india;  or, atleast,  they tend  to avoid  the  huge  crowds that sorround the fake ones.  Watch the conflicting reports on  buddha boy,  on youtube.  It is actually  pretty easy to tell the fake ones (especially if one is sensitive enough with a stable mind and the mind is tuned to spirituality already).

Thank you steve, for the suggestions. My reluctance to practice metta (compassion/kindness) as part of my daily routine has been removed today. Coincidentally, while i was reading scripture today, i came across these words of the Supremely Enlightened One (this was uttered to tell the monks how to react to someone's speech, good or bad):

"'Our minds will remain unaffected, and we shall utter no evil
words; we shall abide compassionate for their welfare, with a
mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate. We shall abide
pervading that person with a mind imbued with loving-kindness,
and starting with him, we shall abide pervading
the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness,
abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility
and without ill will.'

That is how you should train, bhikkhus."

As you mentioned, my practice has to progress, in order to maintain my concentration/tranquility/equanimity during daily interactions. There are so many aspects of the practice to keep in mind, especially if one tries to focus at night, on a single subject/object.

As for the "never ending fuel for commitment.....", i got it through my sufferings, and i sustain it through daily practice. Once a mind starts inclining to something, and continues to incline to that subject/object, there is a tendency in the mind to continue that inclination - sort of like addiction, but in a good way and not as bad as other addictions. This is where mindfulness becomes important; because if we let the mind fall away from that good inclination towards dhamma, then slowly we lose that fuel for commitment. Like a horse, it needs constant prodding (at-least daily), to keep to the right path.

In my teen years, i read many stories of indian yogis performing various feats that are considered as miracles, by humans of this age/time. I discounted them as folklore and village gossip. After all, i was smart and knew better than others - or, so i told myself, for a long time. Life, time and age taught me humility with a stick that was lot harder than my school teacher's stick.

Sooner or later, science is bound to catch up and explore the higher potential of humans. But, i fear for the day when we "scientizise" the entire neuro-chemical reactions that is the mind, and declare that science has solved all puzzles that were once considered miracles - i fear for the day when "brute science" throws out humanity and consciousness - for when that is gone, can we survive much longer as humans ? Hopefully our race can survive, if not as humans, but not as animals.

Read the stories of others, to see that he is not the only one:

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani

https://www.psiram.com/en/index.php/Prahlad_Jani

Just like steve declared earlier, i also am neither a teacher nor consider myself advanced enough in my practice. But, i will share what i gained so far, and wish that you find it useful.............

If the habitual reifying self is aware of self/other dualities, it will always be aware that change is eternal. That awareness, no matter how deeply nestled in the background, will generate dukkha due to the fact that even though it has all it wants in the present, that that will eventually change...this is one prime source of dukkha - knowledge of transitoriness

Knowledge is a double edged sword. It gives rise to dukkha and it can be used to anihilate dukkha. Change or "awareness that change is eternal" is an insight - if one clings to this insight, that would give rise to craving of some sort. If one does not cling to ANYthing (including knowledge), there is cessation of being/becoming/birth/suffering/stress. Towards this end, we can use knowledge of any kind, with the right-view, and acheive cessation (to varying degrees) in daily life.

Just out of curiosity, would you say that he was content before he knew of old age, sickness, death, etc.?

In what i have read so far of the scriptures, there is no mention of the state of mind of Gotama during his life of confinment within the palace. There is only reference to his state of mind when he was a child (and had meditated already as a child, spontaneously). So, we don't know how he felt in mind as a teenager. If i am asked how content he was as a teenager, i would say he was as content as any rich, spoilt teenage brat that you find in todays world - maybe more content. But this in no way compares to the content/stillness/bliss that arises when one is liberated from all taints and clinging.

I don't have faith in any literature 100%

You do not need 100% faith, to start with or progress to a large degree. Buddha asked us to use our rational mind. So, we can start with that, and accept only parts of the literature that seems acceptable to our rational mind. That is exactly how i started. As we progress along the recommended path, we find fruits that are delightful to the mind. And as mind gets nutriment from these delightful fruits, it gains more strength and confidence/faith in the path; mind progresses further along the path; upon reaching right destinations along the path, mind starts having more faith based on the rationality at that stage of mind.

I do remember reading that it is the fabrications of the mind that are essentially the cause of suffering. If there is no merely imputed 'I' to whom the pain/longing/disatisfaction occurs, then there is no suffering.

 

Suffering is the reaction to pain, not the pain itself. Ending the fabrications of the mind ends suffering.

 

Now many view suffering as the disease, but it also has a purpose. It gets things done. Envy, hunger, fear - these things all have a purpose and have arisen because they ensure survival of the species.

 

I think that someone who is interested in Buddhism would benefit from studying evolutionary psychology. All things that arise over the eons have a specific function, in that they turned out to benefit the life-form in its survival on the whole. In the case of humanity, suffering is mind-based (lower animals - simpler life forms - do not suffer - they dont have that reflective capability....they just have stimulus/response). It causes people to think of creative ways to transcend the situation that is bothering them. Suffering is the mother of invention! It leads to development and unique adaptations.

Buddhism does not limit suffering to any specific species or beings. (Note that suffering/dukkha has multiple meanings). So, the right view would be that even a single cell organism suffers/stresses/has un-satisfactory life. And higher beings that have material-formness also have the same property. Right view would be that stimulus/response itself is a form of suffering. This is evident simply by looking at an animal form that we can understand (rather than considering an amoeba) - take a dog for example - it has no reflective capability (i will go with your theory on this one here), but it is easy for us to experience and see the suffering of a dog and tears in its eyes at times.

Anyways, back to the point....Buddha stated that ending the fabrications of the mind ends suffering. How are the five skandhas fabrications?

I will present a simpler view for this question. The 5 khandhas are fabrications because they cease to exist in a dead person. Without a live-mind, fabrications can not exist. Without live-fabrications of the mind, 5 kandhas can not exist. It is actually part of the mind that fabricates/creates/distinguishes these 5 kandhas. Realization/understanding/feeling this in the bones/penetration of this truth, is one of the delightful fruits that we find along the path.

Who doesn't?!

As my wife likes to say, I am a work in progress...

Hahaha - all wives want to "work on their husbands and shape them to their wishes".

Yes, it's fascinating how many similarities we can find among disparate traditions.

Trinities are found in many ancient traditions - Babylonia, Sumeria, India, Tibet, Greece, Egypt, and others...

You are way more knowledgable than me - i know only 3 religious philosophies.

Day to day life - I think this is the key.

Our informal practice (off the cushion) is more important than our formal practice, IMO.

We both seem to realize the importance of this. I get so disturbed afterwards, when i realize that i lost my inner stability/equanimity/mindfulness/tranquility after a human interaction. Sometimes i keep stability, having sensed that the other mind is unstilled/undeveloped/suffering. But other times, i lose my focus, get excited, lose my insight.

I need to work on this area - I realize that i can overcome this obstacle by cultivating the warmth that you were talking about earlier. If mind has warmth, it will naturally spread to the other minds around - but i am unwilling to take up specific practices (like compassion/kindness meditations) at this stage, because i feel that these feelings should arise naturally out of insight and stillness, developed during sitting-time. What are your insights/tips into warmth/metta/joy of mind in day-to-day activities/interactions ? And, do you care to share how you deal with these daily mini-destabilizations that occur throughout the day ? (sigh, monks have it easy).

.................... You will always find it in the midst of even the most heavenly bliss. ................

I think someone raised an objection to this view, earlier in this discussion. But i understand what you are trying to convey, as the core message there. Anything that is subject to anicha is dukka/unsatisfactory/stressful/suffering.

Just think of the Buddha, he had everything, yet still was not content.

He was not content because all he wanted was to find the truth about suffering and an end to suffering. One he attained this Super knowledge, he lived content for the rest of his life.

I think suffering exists due to our ignorance and due to the fact that we feel separate from everything else. That dissatisfaction is likely due on some level to a desire to expand, to be free.

As you pointed out, the suffering/dissatisfaction will end once a higher stage of liberation is reached and the mind realizes/feels/immerses/lives in the knowledge that it is NOT separate from everything else.

Study samadhi states...all the various types and the nirvanas, which transcend suffering, and you might get a new view. If, what is the highest goal, paranirvana? is freedom from suffering, then see if you can understand why...

Yes i did study them repeatedly; it helped me further my understanding of dhamma, but what really moved me (measurably) along the path, is embedded in the discussion between me and steve.

If we translate Parinirvana as death, then we can clearly see that it is going to end the suffering in human form. But according to buddhist literature, that is not the end of suffering, since beings arise and pass away everywhere, caught up in this web of suffering. How far do you take your faith in buddhist literature ? Are you willing to go all the way ?

I think those comments came from the fact that I see and have myself experienced how easy it is to misunderstand emptiness, especially if we are focused on intellectual study and understanding. In our formal and informal practice, that's less of a problem since we are working with awareness, perceptions, feelings, and so on, rather than concepts. Whether these things are "real" or "empty" or whatever other words we use to describe them from a metaphysical perspective, there's no denying that they are with us (at one level there ARE us) and it is basically what we have to work with, along with our intellect, of course. But when we are working primarily with the conceptual, I think we can lose sight of the tangible (sic).

Yes, i clearly see what you mean. Intellect and contemplation are tools, and they have to be properly used to tangible results. I used to get caught up in them during my initial meditation retreats, and i still struggle with them (but to a lesser degree).

The basis of what I mention above is the idea of the sku gsum (Tibetan) or trikaya (Sanskrit) or three bodies. You may well know more about these than I do but I'll give a brief (and hopefully, reasonably accurate) description. These three aspects of existence can be considered a description of Buddhahood itself. Bön sku or Body of Bön (dharmakaya) is the emptiness of the natural state and is described as having the attributes of space and the sky is often used as an example in the teachings (the Bönpos have been referred to as sky worshipers). Rdzogs sku or Body of Perfection (sambhogakaya) is related to clarity or luminosity and the infinite potential for manifestation. Sprul sku or Body of Emanation (nirmanakaya) is related to energy and movement. The three are inseparable and inter-related at all levels. Our discussion of them as separate is artificial.

 

In practice, these three are related to the three doors of body, speech, and mind. One of my practices involves resting in the stillness of body, silence of speech, and spaciousness of mind. The stillness of body is a doorway to the wisdom of the dharmakaya - emptiness. This is not an intellectual understanding but a connection that develops over time with inner stillness and then, in turn, with it's inseparability from the stillness that surrounds us. It's often referred to as space. Similarly, when we gain stability resting in silence of speech (including the internal narrator), this is a doorway to the wisdom of the sambhogakaya - clarity, spontaneous presence, knowing (dare I use the word rigpa?). It's often referred to as light or luminosity. Finally, spaciousness of the mind involves cultivation of opening, allowing, embracing, non-interference, feeling oneself as the space that one occupies, and so on, and this is related to the wisdom of the nirmanakaya which is the energy of manifestation. The direct experienced is often referred to as warmth or bliss.

 

Others may have a better understanding of these things or see them differently and I welcome any corrections or comments.

I know nothing about Mahayana views. I looked up trikaya just now, and it reminded me of christian trinity Father, Son and Spirit. Regarding silencing the body and speech - it has been my experience that the subtlities of mind are clearer only when body and communication (speech included) are brought to stillness, in day to day life. This alone brings great fruits, leave alone this way of penetration into dhamma.

Clarity is essentially awareness but the specific aspect of awareness that is knowing as opposed to the awareness associated with the 6 senses and subject/object duality, it is also referred to as clear light and is what permits self-awareness. Warmth is much harder to explain without a common experiential ground. It is essentially the feeling of well-being associated with the experience of truth. As we rest deeper and deeper in what is without the intrusion of sense forms, that sense of belonging, being home, feeling supported, unconditional love - all this and more is spontaneously present. It's often referred to as bliss.

Wonderful explanation. Yes, now i understand what you meant. It is extremely tough to even reach this stage, which you describe with various adjectives (like unconditional love), even during silent meditation retreat periods. So, i am long way from experiencing these descriptions in my daily life, but striving hard to get further along the path. This is where becoming a monk helps in progress.

What i am find in my current practice is that when i try to practice mindfulness/awareness/clarity and equanimity/calmness/restfulness in daily life, there is a small degree of stillness in my mind, that other people can sense. This stillness might come across as withdrawn/sad/defeated/unhappy to other people. It depends on the mind of the other person, that looks into my eyes. I realize that i lack that compassion/love for beings around me, but i do not want to force it into my daily life, unless it arises naturally. I have seen this compassionate love (metta) naturally arise only at the end of my purification process in a meditative retreat (when i purposefully direct my mind to metta). A suffering/stressed/deluded mind does not incline towards the higher states that you are describing, during day-to-day activities, as ordinary person. To some degree, the higher states of mind also arrive with aging process, i suspect. I know my mind was restless and agitated when i was a young man, which i confusedly understood as happiness and joy.

In Buddhism, there are too fundamental errors - as we study sutra and the thinking mind wrestles with concepts related to reality it can deviate towards nihilism or eternalism. Nihilism is the error we make when our view is that of non-existence, mistaking emptiness for non-existence. In fact, the emptiness is fully alive with potential.

Indeed, these discussions are fruitful to me. Yes - people do tend to take extreme views such as nihilism or eternalism, when it comes to views about oneself/their soul/spirit/consciousness/atman/etc. I have thrown them all out, as advised by my only teacher, the Supremely Enlightened One. As you say, Emptiness is indeed alive with great potential - reminds me of what i wrote, few of days ago......

In the beginning there was nothing,

Then came nama rupa,

Giving rise to everything..........

Can you be more clear on which part this refers to?

I think you have discussed it already. But would be useful to hear more, if you could. I was referring to your words " Emptiness without clarity and warmth would be a nihilistic view. ..............So I think it's important to remind ourselves of the inseparable nature of emptiness, clarity, and warmth lest we fall into the error of nihilism when we are studying sutra. The Bonpos speak of this as the union or inseparability of space, light, and warmth."

In my limited experience and understanding, the concepts of non-duality, karma, dependent origination, and emptiness are all inextricably related.

They may seem different on the surface but as we experience and understand them on deeper levels, they are not isolated.

Yes, all these you mention are simply concepts that can be used to look at / reach nibbana, from different perspectives. I remember a place where Venerable Sariputta explains that dhamma could be penetrated using any/all of the above concepts. But for the purpose of my practice, i used to take each individually to consider and penetrate, because my mind is not developed to a stage where i can contemplate all at the same time. Sometimes, when i consider one aspect, during the course of thought, it will lead to another concept. But, lately i have abondoned this approach of thinking/contemplation, in light of some experiences. More focused on keeping my mindfulness + equanimity throughout the day, as i go about my daily activities. And sleep time is spent on awareness of being and aggregates + vipassana meditation + surrender to Buddha/dhamma/sangha so that i may receive the guidance.

The toughest time for me during daytime is the time when i start speaking and get engaged too much in that process. My mind gets overly agitated with human interaction, i suspect. Later i would reflect and find out that is where i lost my mindfulness and equanimity during the course of the day.

One thing to be careful of, in my opinion, is that scripture speaks extensively about emptiness but tends to leave out the fact that the emptiness has aspects of clarity and warmth that are inseparable. Emptiness without clarity and warmth would be a nihilistic view. ..............So I think it's important to remind ourselves of the inseparable nature of emptiness, clarity, and warmth lest we fall into the error of nihilism when we are studying sutra. The Bonpos speak of this as the union or inseparability of space, light, and warmth.

I am not following the exact meaning of these words.

1. What exactly do you mean by clarity and warmth ?
2. Why is nihilism coming into picture here ? I do not view any of these concepts as nihilistic. Pardon my ignorance - i now wish i had studied philosophy and religion in college.
3. The ending statement is not clear to me. It would be nice if you talk more on these set of statements.

I think the issue with translating 'dukkha' as suffering is that it's excessively nihilistic - for example, it seems unreasonable to call the bliss of jhana 'suffering'. The satipatthana sutta refers to negative, neutral and positive feelings, implying that not all is suffering, making it important to see in what way positive feelings are dukkha too.

Seeker of Wisdom,

I accept that the pali word dukkha has multiple meanings. But one of the meanings is clearly suffering / stress / pain etc. Of course, not everything is directly suffering, but they are indirectly suffering (because they are impermanent, and hence will lead to their change, which is indirect suffering - ie. first jhana is over Ah, just re-read your second sentence; so, yes, you see it too. But, my original post was not because i could not see suffering in feelings, but i could not see suffering in perceptions/formations. But, when i add the concept of anicha & anatta to the tripod, yes suffering becomes deductible. Maybe I have lot of work to do, before i can feel these 2 forms of sufferings in my bones.

Steve,

There's also a nice thread going on right now on emptiness.

And, for me, one of the best books on this subject is The Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche.

Thanks for your comments. Will add that to my reading list. The emptiness thread sounds good. From your comments, it seems like your practice is more focused on dualism/non-dualism. Even though this is not discussed too much in buddhist scriptures, i do feel it in my practice. So, we are in sync i feel, but are taking different paths to the same mountain peak. I also concur with your views about practice being more important than courtyard discussions. And yes, what lies beyond all words/language/experience/definition/description, is Nibbana. But, even half nibbana or quarter nibbana or fraction of nibbana is highly fruitful, and the path we walk on provides that fractional benefit, right here and now, in this life and world.

Tibetian ICE,

I thought it was covered in the article when it is said:

 

For "no-nature" is not dualism, nor is it not "non-dualism". We throw such concepts out of the window.

Perceptive and well said.

I think the topic and understanding of dualism/non-dualism will arise automatically to anyone who practices seriously; for sure that topic crossed my mind during a moment of clarity, few days ago, even before i started this thread. But i did not direct my mind into that topic/words, because buddhist dhamma directs my mind to focus/stay on other aspects (like emptiness or awareness). I think we simply use different words, to refer to the same experiences. Maybe, different sects/dhammas use different words to convey how to transcend it all.

As i was writing this message, something struck my mind, regarding my original post/question here........

Perceptions/cognition aggregate & mental formations/thinking aggregate, both have the nature of clinging (to past). In other words, these 2 aggregates are affected by our past experiences/kamma. This we can feel intutively. Since clinging leads to suffering/stress/non-satisfactory conditions, these 2 aggregates are suffering/stressful/not-satisfactory.

Meanwhile, here is a link that i found useful, which has a collection (from different Suttas) on the topic of five aggregates:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html I spent several hours on youtube listening to various monks, but they were simply explanation of the 5 aggregates - none addressed my question, and i gave up after some time.

So the emptiness here is the lack of subject, lack of object, lack of distinction. It cannot be experience as that implies subject,..............

This is getting difficult for me, because now i feel that we are pushing the boundaries of language/words, in order to convey our experiences. What if i were to say, in the loose/common/general sense of the word experience, everything (including Nibbana) is an experience ? Why would this be a wrong view ?

Surely, one has to be conscious/subconscious/aware of an experience, otherwise one would not know it, remember it, and may not be able to describe it using any sort of word. So, in the emptiness nothingness, there is no-thing and then there is consciousness/awareness of the emptiness-nothing (which transcends description), because there seems to be layers/levels of emptiness nothingness. (yeah, i know :-), this is why i think we are pushing boundaries of language here ). Perhaps you are experiencing a different layer/level of emptiness-nothingness.

Perceptions (recognitions) and formations (thoughts/volition) arise and establish duality.

Perception and thought imply the dichotomy of perceiver/perceived and thinker/thought.

This the foundation for judgement - satisfactory/unsatisfactory, like/dislike, good/bad ===> dukkha

 

........

Not sure if that's at all useful. Good luck in your studies.

Yes, steve - this part is useful. My recent penetration related to duality, conciousness+material form and origin of dukkha ties in nicely with your words, and i thank you for them. Now, I understand it thus:

In the beginning there was nothing,

Then came nama rupa,

Giving rise to everything,

including origin of suffering.

Abiding in emptiness nothing,

Will take me back to nothingness.

Salutations to Supremely Enlightened,

For showing me the right path and practice.

I have less experience than you're asking for, no big expert, but here's my two cents anyway.

 

You're probably already aware of this, but remember to bear in mind that 'dukkha' is broader and subtler than 'suffering': here. Look in terms of the more subtle 'tightening' or 'friction' of samsara.

Seeker,

I looked at the link you gave, where you seem to have defined the pali word "dukkha" with 3 different meanings. I have usually seen dukkha translated into suffering (but i also have seen similar statements, with impermanance mentioned in them).

As an example, take a look at the following words of Venerable Sariputta (buddha himself has spoken these same words, if i remember correctly, in some other sutta):

"And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering,

what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the

cessation of suffering?

Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering;

sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation,

pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one

wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging

are suffering. This is called suffering...........(and he moves on to

explain other noble truths)"

Here, it is clear that Venerable Sariputta is not using dukkha to mean impermanence, but directly implies "suffering" itself, as indicated by sickness/sorrow/lamentation/pain etc. BTW, i assume that you have studied pali language, since you have clearly given 3 meanings to dukkha (possibly deriving from your knowledge of various suttas and their context).

In any case.....it is in this vein, that i was trying to figure out the answer to my original question. The mention of five aggregates in above quote, have been repeated in many suttas that i have read.

 

 

Perception - tends to feed into proliferation of views and attachment, biased and dualistic, limited, conditioned. But definitely not always suffering.

 

Volition - intentions cannot be guaranteed to be fulfilled (anatta - a self would be fully controllable) permanently (anicca) and are conditioned. But not always suffering.

 

Remember that the perceptions of impermanence, dukkha and anatta tend to feed into each other, so be open to all of them in your vipashyana. And recognising the first two noble truths to achieve the third comes about by practice of the fourth, in an integrated fashion. Wisdom feeds into, and is fed by, virtue and samadhi. A bit more shamatha may give you the sensitivity of perception you need to see dukkha more clearly.

 

Hope that helps.

While i contemplate how the five aggregates are suffering (as mentioned above), i tend not to think about anatta or anicha - not because i am ignoring them or do not understand them, but because i tend to create concentration on my object of meditation. I do not mean to say that there is no fruit in an effort spent on contemplating all 3 (anatta, dukkha, anicha) - i have spent time in past, contemplating all 3 as pillars of a tripod.

But, the breakthrough in my understanding of dhamma, during the wee hours of this morning, is potentially going to shift me away from thinking/conciousness/perception. I thank my Gods for showing a peek of sanity and starting a shift in my deluded, conditioned mind.

Ran into this thread, while i was searching for something else. I know nothing about acupuncture or chinese medicine. But, since you wrote much, pouring your heart out, i wanted to chime in.

Can acupuncture liberate minds ? - I don't know the answer, but i get reminded of a similar question in another thread. And someone said...."if that were true, we would have acupuncturists liberating each other". View it as a healing science.

"....as I feel they may cost me my inner spiritual integrity...." - your final words sum it up, and the final words of the previous poster sums up an important consideration. There are degrees of spirituality (like any other quality, i guess) and it is clear that you currently seek a honorable career where you can keep your spiritual integrity intact. I don't know how old you are and where you live, but these are considerations too, for a final solution in your mind. Like the Supremely Enlightened One taught us, live is best lived in balance using the middle-path. Only you can decide what exactly balance means for your life.

CT - I understand the underpinnings of self/no-self part of the teaching, and the relationship of 5 aggregates to self/no-self aspect of teaching. Currently my practice is more on the need to understand the words "Perceptions(recognitions) are suffering; Formations (thoughts/volition) are suffering".

Give it up . There is nothing to be found in words other than obtaining a basic direction. Wanting to know intellectual facts is the human inability to accept things as they are.

Agreed on your wisdom that "words provide only basic direction", because practice makes big impact. But, Beg to disagree on the last part, based on following thoughts:

• Buddha's words are not merely intellectual facts. They lead us further into the practice; provide support and basis for the right way to practice; these words illuminated my practice, whereas before i was stumbling along.
• Human inability to accept things as they are is an issue. So, the words of Supremely enlightened One lead us to reality, to the revelation of things as they are - not as we deludedly see them to be, because of our conditioning. Our inability to accept things as they are, is continuously lessened by furthering our understanding of wisdom words. I have experienced big impact on my practice, after i started reading my Teacher's words; whereas, before i met His words, i was a bigger fool, stumbling along in darkness, although i had made progress in practice to some degree.
• In practical life, to deal with suffering of my householder life, our Tathagata's words have given me strength to accept things as they are, in a progressive manner.
• Buddha advices NOT to give it up, but says Strive On tirelessly in the PATH. These are simply steps i must take, in the eternal path of suffering and delusion.
• I don't underestimate the abilities, attainments or words of Master Dawg. This is a rare thing to come across.

Currently my practice is focused on penetrating deeper into the first 2 noble truths - suffering and origin of suffering. Buddha has given numerous ways to penetrate into these, through different perspectives/views/angles. One of the ways/methods/views that i am using is penetrating Buddha's often repeated statement - "In short, the 5 aggregates are suffering/origin of suffering".

So, i would like input from those who have spent many years in practice of mindfulness and equanimity/calmness of mind........These are the 5 aggregates i consider : (physical form, feeling, perception/cognition/discrimination, mental formation/fabrication/volition/impulse/thoughts and coinciousness/awareness/the watcher). While it is easy to see how form, feeling and conciousness are suffering and that they are the origin of suffering, i would like to understand more about how perception & volition aggregates are suffering. I can see how these two can be the cause/origin of suffering. I have read the top articles i can find in a search of internet, about five aggregates (khandas), but none i have read go deep into an explanation of how these 2 aggregates are suffering.

My practice includes an attempt to see in personal experience how these 5 aggregates are suffering and are in fact the origin of suffering within my body+mind. I need to break into these 2 aggregates, that are eluding my experience, obviously because of my lack of understanding.

Master Dawg,

I have been studying and contemplating Dhamma from different angles, during my primitive meditation practice. It would help me, if you could expound on Dependent Origination. Some of the words found in english translations of the Pali Suttas carry multilple meanings as common english words, and could potentially be misconstrued. In case you have contemplated on Dependent Origination, it would be nice to hear your words because the words you use are simple, easy to understand words, and have good explanations. While one part (the ending or the beginning) of Dependent Origination is easy to see and understand, the other end of it gets tricky. While most in this forum have seen/read these words of buddha in english, and interpreted it in their own ways, i would love to hear an exposition, directly from a liberated one.

DormantBuddha,

Thank you for the pointers. Joining this forum has been of great help to me, due to helpful words in this thread. I am old enough to ignore the the negativity that typically dominates youthful stage of life (myself included). Yes, you are right about my scholastic approaches. Currently my practice combines meditation with plenty of reading, and i have found these two supplement each other nicely. In the beginning years of my practice, i was only trying to sit with the limited knowledge that was taught to me by my teacher - of course, he taught only what was necessary for a beginner, even though he was far advanced.

Then came a stage where i started reading and found Buddha's direct words before his pariNibbana.....some words to the effect that "Do not think that you do not have a teacher anymore. Let my dhamma be your teacher and follow it as if you will follow me". So, i found great progression in my practice, once i started reading the Suttas and contemplating the direct words of the Teacher of Teachers.

As per your suggestion, i will check into those references for my next reading material, once i finish with my current book.

Thanks Brian. Interesting approach to think about thinking. I have seen a demonstration of that multi-threaded thought/awareness - a person who did about 10 different things (like counting number of random bells, counting flowers that randomly fall on his back etc), over a period 30 mins or 1 hr. At the end, he would reveal the various answers (like counts), which perfectly tallied with correct answers. This was performed in my high school, with students assisting - so no cheating for sure - it was simply his sidhi.