noonespecial

I think it comes down to; "are the sympathies/correspondences used in alchemy purely subjective or are they truly universal and objective." If they are objective, and there is a universal science behind it, the chakra system, the qabalistic tree, etc would all naturally resonate with any laboratory work simply because the forces involved are real and adhere to XYZ rules of correspondence. I guess this is something for every individual to discover for themselves, no use in arguing over it. We also have to ask at what point does alchemy simply become antiquated chemistry? Here is San Frnacsico the medical marijuana industry is huge, we have guys pumping out marijuana tinctures, oils and waxes, by the buttload, are they alchemists - did they torture gnomes to release the essence from the plant and then fix it again, in a way, yes - technically these are spagyrgic treatments, the essence of dead plant, matter extracted, purified, transmuted and fixed into a new body, in this case water or alcohol. Without even getting into the Hindu or Jewish systems, it seems the sensory perception and mind have to be in a certain state or able of reaching a certain level of perception to 'see' the work occurring in the lab - hence the difference between a true philosopher and a fool making gold from lead lies in one's capacity to see the processes as they occur. Prayer should be just as efficient in opening the senses, and indeed these guys seemed to pray incessantly. My 2.. ---- Prayer of Paracelsus You have given us Love as medicine, o Lord, and You want that the doctor is included in this Love, to heal the sick. Like Your Love has no end, our researching and serving should have no end Without Your help the doctor is helpless, but with You he is capable of the highest. You make use of us, because You like to stay in secret. It is Your will that You heal the sick through us. You pour joy of eternal life into the heart, and everyone who believes in You, will rise alive and not taste death. Mysteriously You have united in man the forces of all elements, just like a doctor who draws from the saps of the herbs the power to heal. Let me arrange all for the benefit of the sick to the best of my powers and decision, keep away from them all harm. Let me maintain holy and pure my art and my life. Amen.

I hear ya. Alchemically you could say celestial niter and celestial salt, that actually matches quite succintly.

Twins as in feminine and male, 0=2 - thats it, on and off, lingam and yoni - . But it's related to the dark night of the soul, why is it dark, it's because one realizes, that this is it, right here right now, there is nothing to return too, the Point is SMOOTH - hence build up and out, in this sense the Hebrew occultists (and the alchemists i would suppose as well who focused on the evolution of the matter) seem to be a bit more in tune with 'that' when they focus on the 'world to come' (forward) and not 'the path of return' (backward). But that is neither here nor there and probably does not make any sense either way returning and going land you in the same place, seems to be a matter of swimming upstream or downstream,. lol. I still use the usual tree, but that's getting kinda old boring for me...recently came across some pretty convicing arguments for the Sefer Yetzirah describing a rotating Tetrahedron inside a sphere as well, lots of cool stuff out there edit; just found this, good quote by Jean D. "The alchemists always admonish their students, "Know the theory first before attempting the praxis." They say, "You must walk in the Book of Nature to understand our Art." The alchemical concept of life and matter lies at the opposite pole of that of the current scientific community. Science is trying to find out how matter created life. Alchemy states that life created matter. Alchemy affirms that at the origin, there is consciousness. Consciousness is the need to Be of the Absolute. In order to satisfy this need, consciousness created life, and in order to evolve, life created matter." - Jean Dubuis

indeed one of the reasons i left is it got to new agey, rays and things of that nature as the teaching progressed, still, I've witnessed stranger things.

According to a former teacher of mine, this is what constitued the oral tradtion, the projecting of energy from the activated psychic centers and energized organs into the 'external' lab setting, I have since left his school for other reasons, but I have no reason to believe he was fibbing or exagerating, who knows.

And yet Kether is in Malkuth after another manner, perhaps Kether is Malkuth...I understood this on a praeter-rational level, in the utmost of crystaline clarity one night, language cannot describe what was for the most part a deep knowing/experience, but to the anthropomorphize it, we could say Malkuth and Kether are twins, they emerged at the same time from the unknown, and then the creation process filled in the blanks, so instead of a lightning flash going downards a la Golden Dawn QBL (so static), you have a living Vesica Piscis, and we can go 'up' or 'in' - food for spirit.

Awesome! Request made.

This is great, it brings up so many diverse thoughts, everything from the implications of spermo-gnosticism, to genetic engineering, transhumanism, back to the true meaning of the goetia, etc. It also makes my OP seem to have more in common with the Golden Flower than anything in the European current, however it would be amiss for me to state that the spiritual practices do not effect the physical body, when the tinglings and influxes occur for the first time it is quite a shock, more so when they continue without any aid from the practitioner, combined with physical lab work I can see the implications of the art and even without the lab work the lines between spiritual and physical really do dissolve with continued labor, and indeed everything is One Thing, and our role is as co-creator, or as the Rumi so eloquently stated, keepers of the garden. Many, many thoughts. Either way thank you so much for sharing.

Thanks UFA. Very cool. So excuse my bluntness, but real alchemy as in the medieval type, was about trapping the life force of a 'thing' in athanors, to extract the air and fire from the gross, and basically using them as drugs, you mentioned the psychic effects on the alchemist of this process. Was this also what the Arab alchemists were doing? *Edit* Indeed this reminds me of Paraclesus discourse on Gnomes, it's easy to 'psychologize' such things away, but surely when this process occurs, the operator somehow perceives actual gnomes and salamanders, etc - hence the link with invocation and things of that nature ?

boo yow

Absolutely. I recently tried an daoist system of circulation (as supposed to hindu/hermetic) and had excellent results, all the same centers seem to be opening, perhaps it was even a little 'smoother' of a ride due to the subtle differences in circulation routes.

Reminds me of this btw Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things. Surat al-Nur

Oh I've read Waites 'Lives' - cool. I will check out Fulcanelli Phenomenon! Thanks Frater. *edit* ouch 60 bucks used for Fulcanelli Phenomenon, sounds like the real deal though.

I put this out there for conversation and correction, so if any one would like to add or even be my guest and hi-jack the thread, please feel free!

Indeed I have read many modern authors, Julius Evola, etc. Yet a cursory glance at Robert Fludd's (for example) work seems to speak toawards a similar process occuring. Can you make any recomendations, as a 'Frater' you must have some experience.

cool. i like that.

You dont think the guys were working with subtle centers of energy? I think they were. *edit* i do agree though, the assignments of metals, locatiosn, etc were different and of course they were not called 'chakras'

I've been meaning to pick that one up. As for me, my favorite for to the point meditation and contemplation is Lambsread. No filler.

Cool, so when I look in the mirror and think sexy ass beast thats a good thing.

Ignoring the contents of the subconscious will not make them go away, it's reality is not even an issue, in fact it is a key component of the work.

The truth will always stay one step ahead of us.

Awesome, I love their YT presentations as well.

A two month period will not suffice IMO, it is a lifetime of work, a series of workings of dissolution and coagulation; it's really a misconception we do one ritual or one working and voila we have a hotline to the supernal realms, of course this is another misnomer due to the proliferation of GD derived material on what is essentially a very private and unique rite to each individual, no two paths would be the same, at best Abramelin is a general outline of the life style changes and mindset of one seeking God.

Yes, of course I have read the PGM and Abramelin and I believe the tradition can be traced beyond Greece to Persia as far as I know, perhaps farther back even. If your interested: http://www.avesta.org/angels.html On defining God, if your familair with Qabalistic terminology I do not mean Ain Suf who is indeed 'in' everything, but the Lord, Adonai, etc - the Seat of Tiphareth, the Demiurge, the Sun of the Alchemist, the undefiled Ruach. Either way, once anyone gets to this stage of practice most definitions and clear lines of demarcation are of little use. Hope that helps clarify.

It's a fancy term for God; or the part of you that is part of God, neither/nor, but not an angel per say...in fact that term is misleading. Maybe read some Corbin or Evola for the 'bigger picture' - it's good to break out of the Golden Dawn/Crowley box.