Geof Nanto

I cannot say whether this is accurate or not because I have no knowledge or experience of this type of practice. Hopefully someone who reads it will be able to give an objective assessment. If @Netero doesn’t know himself maybe @freeform does? However, I can vouch for the general accuracy of the info in my OP because it very much relates to my own experience and understanding of neidan theory. The questions I asked were deliberately designed to convey that by allowing ChatGPT to expand on it. And I learnt from its answers too in that it reinforced and validated my own understandings. Hence, that conversation was a very rewarding experience or me. Of course, as ChatGPT repeatedly mentioned, different neidan lineages have different approaches to practices. Daoism in general and neidan in particular are vastly diverse in their teachings and practices. As to the accuracy of the info in my conversation with Chat GPT about Black Liver and Rabbit’s marrow, I will elaborate on that in my next post.

I very much like the information ChatGPT has given me both in my OP and about Black Liver and Rabbit Marrow. I first came across the terms ‘Raven’s Liver’ and ‘Rabbit Marrow’ a couple of decades ago when I read Cleary’s translation of a text traditionally attributed to Zhang Boduan ( Chang Po-tuan) titled Four Hundred Words on the Gold Elixir. Here is the relevant verse: 14. THE RAVEN’S LIVER AND THE RABBIT’S MARROW— GRAB THEM AND PUT THEM BACK IN ONE PLACE. GRAIN AFTER GRAIN, FROM VAGUENESS TO CLARITY. Cleary also translates Liu Yiming’s full commentary which I’ll leave for people to look up for themselves if they are interested. Of particular relevance here he says: ““The raven's liver' is the vitality of the sun; liver is dark, which is associated with wood, and so symbolizes the essence of conscious knowledge. 'The rabbit's marrow' is the light of the moon; marrow is white, which is associated with metal, so it symbolizes the sense of real knowledge”. Okay, so we have here some complex imagery of which Raven’s Liver as conscious knowledge and Rabbit’s Marrow as real knowledge is a key understanding. ChatGPT obviously hasn’t sourced from Cleary’s translation because the phrasing is totally dissimilar even though the underlying interpretation of what Raven’s Liver and Rabbit Marrow represent is the same. Indeed, ChatGPT has presented what I consider to be particularly insightful information totally in line with Daoist alchemy. The verses are excellent, particularly this one: Black liver and rabbit marrow are one and the same Alternating between black and white within the inner realm Clearing darkness and dissipating negative energy Wisdom and brightness are elevated, enhancing spirituality If, as Taoist Texts suggests, ChatGPT has made up this commentary and the verses, then I’d call ChatGPT a Daoist sage; that this supercomputer has somehow transcended its programming and achieved enlightenment. However I think it far more likely that ChatGPT is sourcing information not available on the web. ChatGPT says this itself: “I was trained on a massive corpus of text data from the web and other sources…” I suspect it was feed massive amounts of scholarship which isn’t available on the web. In any case, I have no doubts from my brief usage of it, that it is a valuable research tool and a pleasure to use. If someone wants to totally dismiss it as Taoist Texts and others here seem to want to, then that’s their business. And I politely ask them to pursue it on a separate topic of their own.

Me: In Daoist inner alchemy (neidan) the terms 烏肝 Black liver (aka Raven’s Liver) and 兔髓 Rabbit Marrow are used. Do you have any information on what these terms symbolise? Chat GPT Yes, in Daoist inner alchemy, the terms "Black Liver" (烏肝) and "Rabbit Marrow" (兔髓) are used to symbolize two stages in the spiritual transformation and enlightenment process. "Black Liver" symbolizes a state of impurities and negativity in one's being, including negative emotions, thoughts, and habits. This stage represents the need to purify oneself in order to progress further on the spiritual path. "Rabbit Marrow" symbolizes a state of purity and enlightenment. It is believed that the Rabbit Marrow represents the essence of life and vitality, and is associated with spiritual illumination and wisdom. In Daoist inner alchemy, the goal is to transform the "Black Liver" into "Rabbit Marrow," which represents the achievement of spiritual enlightenment and union with the Dao. This transformation is believed to be achieved through the practice of meditation, visualization, and other spiritual practices. Me: Thank you. Do you know of any neidan verses (poems) which use these terms? ChatGPT: Yes, there are several Daoist neidan verses that use the terms "Black Liver" and "Rabbit Marrow." Here is one example: 烏肝兔髓同一體 黑白交替在內界 清除陰暗消煞氣 智慧光明提升靈性 This verse can be translated as: Black liver and rabbit marrow are one and the same Alternating between black and white within the inner realm Clearing darkness and dissipating negative energy Wisdom and brightness are elevated, enhancing spirituality This verse highlights the idea that the "Black Liver" and "Rabbit Marrow" are two aspects of the same substance, and that the goal of Daoist inner alchemy is to transform the "Black Liver" into the "Rabbit Marrow." The verse also emphasizes the importance of purifying oneself of negative influences and cultivating wisdom and spiritual illumination. Me: Excellent. Can you give some others? These are difficult to find on the web for non-Chinese speakers. ChatGPT: Certainly, here's another neidan verse that uses the terms "Black Liver" and "Rabbit Marrow": 烏肝是黑暗 髓骨是明亮 負面情緒 消散無存在 內心明晰 真理顯現 兔髓的智慧 在生命中生根 This verse can be translated as: The black liver is darkness, the marrow bone is bright Negative emotions disappear and cease to exist The heart is clear, truth is revealed The wisdom of rabbit marrow takes root in life This verse highlights the transformation of the "Black Liver" into the "Rabbit Marrow," and emphasizes the importance of purifying oneself of negativity and cultivating wisdom and enlightenment. Here's another example: 兔髓智慧 晶瑩明亮 烏肝黑暗 消散無存在 心靈清明 智慧開悟 真理顯現 生命昇華 This verse can be translated as: The wisdom of rabbit marrow is bright and crystal clear The darkness of the black liver disappears and no longer exists The mind is clear and wisdom is awakened Truth is revealed and life is elevated This verse emphasizes the idea of the "Black Liver" being transformed into the "Rabbit Marrow," and the resulting purification and enlightenment that follows. Me: Thank you. Excellent. That's enough for me now. ChatGPT: You're welcome! I'm glad I could help. If you have any other questions in the future, feel free to ask. [Please note: I present this conversation purely as part of my experimentation with how ChatGPT works, and for any benefit forum members might gain from it. I recognise it as a valuable tool that needs skilful use to benefit from its considerable strengths and to acknowledge its limitations. I do not know how these interpretations ChatGPT has given compare to Awaken’s usage of the terms, about which I know very little. BTW Although I can well understand how Awaken has brought onto herself the mocking response she’s getting from some members, underneath I like to think we can be a supportive community for each other in our diverse spiritual practices….in our hearts at least, even if our words at times can be a little harsh, (perhaps appropriately so at times). My own experience, as well as my observation of others, tells me how totally blind we all can be to our own weaknesses and folly.]

Ha! I can understand why you asked that! More generally, I did consider asking it about interpretations of alchemical symbolism but thought there's no way it could give definitive answers. They simply don't exist. Maybe I'll try though at a later date out of interest. On reading the response you got, I just now asked ChatGPT how it’s programmed to sort out what it considers valid information from the vast amount of dubious info on the web. This is reply I got: As a language model developed by OpenAI, I was trained on a massive corpus of text data from the web and other sources, which includes both high-quality and low-quality information. However, I was not specifically trained to evaluate the accuracy of information. Instead, I was trained to generate text based on patterns I learned from the data, so I can provide information and recommendations based on that training, but I can't guarantee its accuracy. When answering questions, I try to use the information from my training data to provide the most relevant and helpful response, but I also rely on the general knowledge and common sense that I was programmed with to guide my responses. However, as with any AI system, it's important to critically evaluate the information I provide and verify it using other sources, especially when making important decisions.

I appreciate your concerns. But as I tried to make clear in my conversation, emotions are so central to our human experience. I personally think it's great that AI can do such intelligent work collating information. Surely for you as a writer, that allows you more time and energy to focus on exploring deeper levels of interpretation, such as more insightful value judgements for example?

That conversation was the first time I tried ChatGPT. I was amazed by the quality of the responses. My “thank you” comments weren’t just for politeness as I said in the conversation, but rather genuinely felt in appreciation and gratitude for the people who are developing this sophisticated AI resource.

I use a 30 minute sand timer. It works well for me because 30 minutes is the minimum I like to sit for but don’t like to have it as a defined time marked by an end chime.

Worth repeating!

You are writing some excellent posts here Freeform. Thank you. To give a slightly different take on pleasure seeking, would you say you’ve found a path that gives you great pleasure? Or maybe better expressed, you’ve found a path that gives pleasure to the Divine heart-mind (daoxin 道心) within you? From what you write, I suspect you would not like to express it in this way. Something that’s apparent to me is that Damo and Adam love what they are doing. This to me is of fundamental importance. I’ve learnt plenty from teachers who do love what they are doing, but I’ve also learnt over the years not to imitate them. They have found their path and I can admire their attainments but what is my path? Does what I’m doing have a heart? How does the Divine want to express itself through me? Something I wrote a while back on my cultivation practice: For me deeper down, I only do this because, all things considered, it's the easiest path for me. That's how Dao works, why it's sometimes referred to as the Watercourse Way. Mine has been a path of following my desires, of doing what I felt like, and then dealing with the consequences. Initially these consequences, though pleasurable at first, had almost entirely unpleasant consequences. But slowly through an alchemical process of refinement using the whole of life as fire and cauldron, my desires have slowly transmuted into something far more harmonious with Dao. This could also be called a path of following one's heart. And sure, I am forced to gain insight into rotten aspects of my heart. No way is this pleasant! Yet it's still the easiest thing for me to do because not dealing with it feels like stagnation and a slow death of my heart; of my soul. That's what happens with inner cultivation. My alignment with Dao strengthens and I'm compelled to act accordingly because I gain a glimpse of an awe-inspiring deeper reality. I’ve found nothing else that compares to the sense of wholeness, of inner belonging, which a felt connection with the numinous mystery I choose to call the Divine brings. (I written some more on finding my own personal path with a heart in my PPD under the heading, Drug addiction, money and the transmutation of desire.)

Thank you for telling us a little about yourself. You are most welcome here!

I’d so no, the causal factors run much deeper. Ian Johnson’s The Souls of China gives plenty of historical insight into why China needed to destroy its traditional structure; a structure that was totally and seamlessly religious. “Understanding this spiritual tumult [in modern China] requires making a detour back in time to its cause, one of the greatest antireligious movements in world history, one that affected all major faiths in China: Buddhism, Christianity, Daoism, folk religion, and Islam. Because China has been run by a Communist Party for such a long time, it might seem like a typical case of atheistic Communists attacking religion, and to a degree it was. But the campaign against religion did not originate with the Communists’ takeover in 1949. Instead, it began a century earlier, when China’s traditional civilization began to collapse. This breakdown was triggered by a crisis of confidence. For most of its history, China dominated its neighbors. Some were militarily stronger, especially the nomadic peoples to its north, such as the Xiongnu, the Mongols, and the Manchus. But even when these groups got the upper hand and conquered China, Chinese rarely doubted the superiority of their civilization. Chinese were often self-critical but believed that their ways of life would prevail. “China’s encounter with the West shook that self-assurance. Starting with the First Opium War of 1839, China suffered a string of military defeats. Many in power were at first unfazed, figuring that they only needed better technology, especially arsenals, ships, and cannons. But when China kept losing battles and territory, a sense of crisis developed. Chinese looked around the world and saw how the West had carved up the Americas and Africa and subjugated India. Was China next? By the end of the nineteenth century, a growing number of Chinese began to believe that their country needed more than superficial changes. They realized that China lacked modern science, engineering, education, public health, and advanced agricultural methods. All of these things were products of a radically different way of ordering society, one based primarily on science. As the crisis deepened, increasingly radical ideas took hold. China didn’t just need new policies, or even a new dynasty. It needed to abolish the emperor. It had to overthrow the entire political system of running China. And that meant destroying the religious system that was its most important pillar.” I’ve started this topic to give a space to explore at a greater depth the very important issues @freeformraises in his discussion with @ChiDragonhere. I’m only wanting to disagree with Freeform on his assertion that’s it’s all the fault of the CCP, not with the reality of what he is saying about the internal arts. For me, disconnection from their divine roots is at the core of the problem. And this is hugely important.

I've just edited that post and added to it.

Those are all good questions but no way am I going to do my head in by trying to articulate all I think and feel about them. In any case, the fact that you are thinking about lineage to the depth that your questions show, tells me your more than capable of finding your own answers. Edit to add: Here’s an extract from a previous post of mine which may give you some insight into my own experiences: From: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48536-an-awakening-through-living-in-the-wilderness/?do=findComment&comment=909023

Damo and Adam are both gifted teachers and I feel their power of attraction. But they are not my teachers. In the past I have studied under a number a gifted teachers and learnt much lineage based theory and practice methods. This is all vital foundational stuff. However, no teacher can show me my path. That’s something that’s unique for all of us and must be individually attained. All the teachers I’ve worked with have only been interested in showing me their system. And I’ve very much wanted to learn it. In a very real sense, as part of their transmission, they overwrite me with their lineage-based power, their lineage-based persona. This is all well and good if it’s my destiny to become a part of their lineage. And that’s what I wanted for many years, but it hasn’t been the way my life’s path has played out. I read a while back from a close associate of Carl Jung’s that Jung didn’t want to overwrite anyone, yet most people who came to him wanted very much to be overwritten. That’s how I’ve been in my search for teachings, my search for meaning. Jung didn’t like that, but he accepted it as reality. He didn’t want a lineage of Jungians, yet he gained one. What he wanted was to give people insight into how Spirit tries to speak to each of us individually. He saw his role as like that of an obstetrician; he wanted to help people remove inner obstructions that were hindering their giving birth to who Nature wanted them to be – like genuine neidan practice does. An associate who sometimes sat in with Jung during his consultations said that she was amazed at how Jung could listen to seemingly endless recounting of a person’s life problems and situation, and then at some point stop them and say, “That’s where Spirit is trying to contact you.” He’d give people no easy answers but rather direct them away from the false problems they thought they had and show them the deeper meaningful problems that they needed to confront. He gave them difficulty not comfort. But it was insight into the richly meaningful archetypal difficulty that’s at the core of every one of us. (In neidan we refer to this archetypal realm as pre-Heaven.) And although we all have it in our own unique ways, it seems to me few of us are required by Nature to confront it. This, for me a least, is so much harder to deal with than becoming part of a lineage, religion or any other sort of group. Yet without my decades of Daoist based praxis and other teachings I'd lack the inner strength and clarity I need for this inner rebirth. And, perhaps ironically given I started on the path seeking comfort, it's only through my practice that I've felt how Nature / Spirit demands this of me.

Some similarities, but fundamental differences too. Here’s another extract from the book which gives good insight into how traditional Chinese society was unlike anything which exists today and may also help @Gerard to understand what I meant by “a structure that was totally and seamlessly religious”. Another book which helped me enormously to get a feeling for old Chinese culture is Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion 1250 – 1276, by Jacques Gernet. In it he states: "The divinity [of those times] was so little personalised, so natural as it were, that religious beliefs and practices seemed to express a lay conception of the world rather than a duality between the sacred and profane and seems to us essential to all religion." (Of course, you need to read the book to get the full picture of what he means by this.)

See this comprehensive post by @senseless virtue: Note particularly the post of @Walker which he references: His conclusion about Du Xinlin: "This fortifies the argument that "Master Du" very likely is a complete fabrication that was made up to impress Dr. Baolin Wu's students with some very special connection and potential — that could maybe rub on you if you spend money on his courses and healing services, as such marketing business is usually motivated."

In Wilhelm’s preface to his Yi Jing translation he writes: “When Tsingtau [Qingdao] became the residence of a number of the most eminent scholars of the old school, I met among them my honored teacher, Lao Nai Hsuan. I am indebted to him not only for a deeper understanding. . . but also because he first opened my mind to the wonders of the Book of Changes. Under his experienced guidance I wandered entranced through this strange and yet familiar world. The translation of the text was made after detailed discussion. Then the German version was translated into Chinese and it was only after the meaning of the text had been fully brought out that we considered our version to be truly a translation.” Adding to the image of instruction from a gifted teacher and countless hours of meticulous work, what I particularly like about this documentary is that it gives insight into why the circumstances that gave rise to his Yi Jing translation were no mere chance happenings. Quietly woven into the fabric of the documentary is the image of him being guided towards the task from his late adolescence onwards. In the aftermath of a failed suicide attempt during his Grammar school days his psyche was opened to the divine. He wrote at the time: An “indescribable feeling of being protected filled me.” From then on his life felt full of purpose, whereas previously it felt meaningless. That purpose was revealed to him in glimpses at key times during his life.

This is an excellent documentary. It’s made by Richard Wilhelm’s granddaughter.

This song could well be about the obscurities and pitfalls of neidan teachings and practice: And a little about aspects of this discussion: Oh we were gone Kings of oblivion we were so turned on in the mind-warp pavillion This is no easy path that we try to walk to the best of our abilities. Time and time again I see aspects of myself reflected in the behaviour of others. My own folly and the suffering it has brought has taught me a measure of compassion for us all.

I’m well aware of standardised chakra theory. It’s the first thing I encountered when I started yoga practice at a Satyananda yoga ashram about forty years ago. Their focus was kundalini yoga. I still have Swami Satyananda Saraswati’s comprehensive book on the subject, titled Kundalini Tantra. It presents the whole modern version of kundalini yoga theory and practice in concise form. I was immensely impressed with it at the time. Here was a systemised way to transcend my mundane reality which relied solely on my own effort. The practice felt real and its ‘truth’ was upheld by many hundreds of people dedicating their lives to following this path. I still have good memories of those early days of my experiences with those people. It was a new world for me with an entirely new worldview derived from the Vedas. The Satyananda trained swamis gave what I still consider to be good guidance and practicing their gentle traditional hatha yoga style helped me enormously. Yet as to any sort of deeper awakening, that yogic path did not call me. After much exploration both within myself and in the external world, I now know that at the heart of any true spiritual path, we enter into the realm of vague and elusive mystery traditions. Such paths can never be systemised. They are individually shaped and reveal themselves in their own way over long periods of time. But we all need a tangible way in and these systemised approaches work well for us westerners, at least in the preparatory stages which may last for decades. However holding to them for too long becomes a barrier to deeper attainment.

I edited my post and added to it well before you replied:

Are you speaking from your own experience? I ask this because you seem to be falling into the error of trying to make reality fit theory. Are there really seven chakras? How did this standardised system arise? I’ve only done basic research on the subject but have read enough to know this theory is a relatively modern invention. See for instance: https://hareesh.org/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras

On the question of spontaneous kundalini awakenings, I consider this account to be indicative of how a real awakening can play out:

A farewell song from a great artist to commemorate the sixth anniversary his death…

I wrote something about ChiDragon a couple of days ago here. That’s all I want to say, other than to make it clear that in no way was that comment meant as a criticism of Trunks’s action at the time. Indeed, I thoroughly appreciate how he took on the role of administrator despite some initial reluctance to take on that burden, and acted decisively to end the reign of chaos into which this forum had descended. In that situation I can well understand why he included ChiDragon on his ban list. However, the forum is no longer in that state of chaos and I think ChiDragon should be judged on his behaviour in his current incarnation. Afterall, we all do cultivation practices in the hope of becoming better people (or, at least, many of us do). And, speaking generally, this forum can be an excellent place to work through power and ego issues.