Geof Nanto

I don't wont to comment directly on American political events but it seems to me from the little I gleam of world events that this new style of politics is less about studying consequences and more about acting from instinct. This can be a good thing - it all depends on the de of the people involved. That's the spontaneity of Daoism in action. After all, no one can predict the whole chain of myriad consequences from any action. (Note the power of the butterfly effect for instance.) However, my reading of the American psyche - and indeed most of mainstream world politics - is that it's very much out of harmony with Dao. I think America is leading the way in this as in so many things. Like Leonard Cohen wrote: "It's coming to America first, the cradle of the best and the worst."

I usually stay away from these political threads but for some reason I was drawn to read this one. Interesting comments, one and all. As someone who is well into the second half of their life and who lives substantially outside mainstream society, my interest is more in gaining insight into the underlying forces that shape our opinions. In other words, where do these strong political (and other) opinions come from? Adapted from Nietzsche....... Main thought! Not politics deceives us, the individuals, and promotes its ends by hoodwinking us: instead, the individuals arrange all Being according to individual — i.e. false — measures; we want to be right in this case, and consequently "politics" has to appear as a liar. In truth, there are no individual truths, instead there are merely individual errors. The individual itself is an error. Everything happening within us is in itself something else that we do not know: only we put the intention, the hoodwinking and the morality into politics. – But I distinguish: the conceived-conceited individuals and the true "life-systems", which everyone among us is one — both are conflated into one, while "the individual" is only a sum of conscious feelings and judgments and errors, a belief, a little piece of the true life-system, or many little pieces, thought and imagined to be unified, a "unit" that does not hold. We are buds on One tree — what do we know about what may become of us in the interest of that tree! But we have a consciousness, as if we would want to and should be Everything, a fantasy of "I" and all "Non-I." Inner cultivation: Ceasing to feel being such a fantastical ego! Learning step by step to throw of the supposed individual! Discovering the errors of the ego! Looking into egotism as an error! Don't you ever conceive of its opposite as altruism! This would be the love of the other supposed individuals! No! Beyond "me" and "you"! Feeling cosmic.

An artist’s impression of the new short-armed and winged feathered dinosaur Zhenyuanlong suni found in China and from the early Cretaceous period (125m years ago). Photograph: Chuang Zhao ( https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/16/zhenyuanlong-suni-biggest-ever-winged-dinosaur-discovered-china )

I thought this post of Pilgrim’s deserves to be highlighted. For me, what he describes is very important and he didn’t get even one ‘Thank You’ (other than mine just now) where he posted it. For those of us who work in the realm of subtle energies, as our perceptions deepen, it becomes apparent how we are all part of a hyper-complex web of energy interactions. It’s important for me to keep this realm as clear as possible, otherwise my sense of wellbeing suffers. Moreover, the resultant disharmonies in the energy fabric are like poison for meditation. I was first introduced to the benefits of this practice when recovering for heroin addiction by working the 12 Step program of Narcotics Anonymous. Step 10, “We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.” These steps are proven spiritual medicine and those who fail to take their medicine almost always end up returning to active addiction. In the decades since then I’ve spent much time seeking further spiritual teachings and lived in various meditation centres, communities etc. From what I’ve seen there – and on this forum too – the adverse effects of not practicing this simple step are blatantly apparent.

Yes, perhaps Nietzsche has some relevant insights? It’s a big digression into the world of theory – and far removed from the practical, achievable step of personally admitting error that was the intention of my OP - but in very real ways it could be argued that it’s the energy of ‘error’ that powers change; that allows the possibility of growth. As an example of this sort of thinking, here’s a summary of Jung’s Answer to Job written by Brion Emde on Amazon ……… Jung expresses concern in his Introduction that readers will misinterpret the ideas contained in this book. Jung presents examples of the unconscious, capricious behavior of Yahweh (GOD) who self-righteously proclaims his moral superiority over humankind and enforces a strict adherence to his sense of justice. This self-delusion reaches culmination in the collusion of Yahweh and his 'shadow son' Satan in the undeserved sadistic persecution of a righteous man, Job, in a cosmic wager. Job's principled response to this persecution demonstrates humankind exhibiting a higher morality than shown by Yahweh. Yahweh, reaching a higher level of consciousness, realizes that he must atone to humankind for the wrong he has done. His attempt to make this atonement through incarnation as Jesus Christ is only partially successful. The later appearance of the Holy Ghost is Yahweh's attempt to perfect himself further through a personal incarnation into humankind in general. Jung moves on to a psychological analysis of the Book of Revelation, where the shadow side of the author, the Apostle John, is evident in the torments predicted to befall humankind. Jung's theological ideas are radical and open to misinterpretation. His thinking on the 'problem of evil' and the evolving relationship of God to humankind is the attempt of a wise, old man to make sense of the conflicting images present in the mythology of the Bible. (I present the above out of my general interest in worldviews that go beyond the simplistic duality of good versus evil. Although I live in a nominally Christian country, I’ve had virtually no contact with Abrahamic religions and know very little of their theology.)

"Shika knew from his own experience that men hate above all those they have wronged." ~ Lian Hearn This is something that happens when we fail to acknowledge error. (I've seen it in myself.) It may be part and parcel of politics but its toxicity poisons inner cultivation.

Yes, but that power can be either constructive or destructive. For me it's the admission of error and the making of amends where possible that's the key.

Yang is peaking. I thought I get this one in as a reminder that not all Dao Bums live in the northern hemisphere. It’s early Wednesday morning where I live in Australia. The sun has just risen; it’s golden light shining through the trees. We’re looking at another hot day, maximum in the high 30’s deg C (that’s nudging 100 F).

Those three-way fridges are good in that they run silently but are a terrible choice for solar power. They are very inefficient when running on 12v power, and will drain batteries much quicker than a compressor fridge. I've been living with off-grid solar for many years and use a WAECO CFX-50 50 litre 12 volt compressor fridge. It's reasonably silent, and draws little power. It has plenty of space for my needs and keeps food nice and cool. I have it set for 2 deg C and it stays that cold even when the ambient temperature is over 40 C (above 100 F). It can also be used as a freezer. But most of the people around here with off-grid solar simply just use an ordinary domestic compressor refrigerator. You don't need a particularly big solar system and battery pack to cope with that. Electric refrigerators and solar power are a good match in that they draw more power when the weather's warmer; more sunshine / more solar power available.

Thanks for your humour. But seriously, it's interesting to note how the standard model of our Earth with the north pole at the top naturally inclines us to perceive this way, even though we know that really there is no top or bottom. A simple but stark reminder of the pervasive power of the conditioned reality we all live in to create delusions.

This discussion has improved markedly as its progressed. Perhaps there is hope for Dao Bums after all.

I haven’t met Damo Mitchell and am fairly new to his teachings via his books, but I’ve had many decades of experience with teachers and personal cultivation. From this perspective, Damo Mitchell comes across as an amazing person of considerable attainment. He is totally dedicated both to his personal practice and to teaching everything he knows with a high degree of openness. (He doesn’t believe in secrecy, although personal transmission is important to him.) The depth of his theoretical knowledge and his communication skill is evident in the clarity of his writings. Hence I wholehearted recommend him to anyone interested in Daoist Neidan. Indeed, these teachings have great power when put into practice by any dedicated student of inner growth. My main reservation is a general one that applies to all teachings. Whilst for me teachings have been, and continue to be essential, I think everyone must ultimately find their own path. For Damo Mitchell, that’s obviously the path of Neidan and teaching. He has searched and found his path; likewise, we all must find our own. Imitating even the most gifted teacher’s path will only get us so far. Specific to Damo Mitchell, I find his approach just a tad too systemised. He gives the impression of certainty in matters that life experience has shown me can never be certain. As Jung writes, “The sure path can only lead to death.” In other words, I find him a little young and inexperienced when it comes to understanding why people can’t necessarily meaningfully go where he has gone; indeed, why no one on a spiritual path can predetermine their destination. But never-the-less, he is an awesome individual with much to offer!

I've been re-reading Arthur Waley's The Way and its Power. Waley was a gifted Sinologist and linguist whose insights are well worth reading. His translation, first published in 1958, includes a long introduction positioning the work within its cultural context. Although some of his assumptions about the Daodejing have been undermined by more recent scholarship, never-the-less the breadth and depth of his perception is truly remarkable. I mention it here because it's a first-class work that's often overlooked. To my mind the only way to fully appreciate the Daodejing is by reading multiple translations over an extended period of time - and this work is a definite must to include.

I don't really want to buy into topic because I haven't read the article Jetsun references and don't intend to. Also diet discussions tend to become heated. My basic belief is that everyone must find what suits best their constitution, lifestyle, age etc. However, I personally steer clear of any concentrated dietary supplements simply because I can't see that they are needed if a person is reasonably healthy and follows a healthy lifestyle. Also, intuitively I don't like the idea of flooding my body with excessive nutrients. With all food viewed as medicine, neither too much or too little is the rule. Both can cause harm. Our bodies haven't evolved to handle concentrated supplements. But as medicines to redress imbalances I can see they have their valid place.

The Valley Spirit never dies. It is called the Mysterious Female. The entrance to the Mysterious Female Is called the root of Heaven and Earth Endless Flow Of inexhaustible energy. (Daodejing Chpt 6)

Traditional Daodejing commentaries vary markedly in their interpretations of Valley Spirit. I’ve read many and like to read what this passage means to other Dao Bums. For me, rather than finding any definitive interpretation, there are images, vague and illusive. And that’s their power; their power to continually give birth to insights beyond words. I wrote the poem Journeying to Valley Spirit as a healing response to brokenness of Du Fu’s Climbing Yueyang Tower…… Climbing Yueyang Tower Long ago I heard of Lake Dongting, Today I climb the tower of Yueyang: The lands of Wu and Chu – to the East and South – riven, Heaven and Earth – day and night – floating detached. From family and friends, not a single letter, Old and sick, a solitary boat. War horses north of the barrier mountains — I lean on the railing and tears flow. Du Fu wrote this poem near the end of his life – a life of broken health in a country broken by war and rebellion. Whilst I’ve been fortunate enough to live in a peaceful country, within myself I’ve suffered much brokenness. This is how life is for many people. It’s neither positive or negative within itself but is something that either permanently breaks us, or remakes us if we are fortunate; if circumstances allow. In retrospect, I can see how I needed much adversity to break my arrogance. A teacher can teach many things, but only life experience can teach brokenness. For me, Valley Spirit is that womb-like energy field that remakes fragmented selves into something more in harmony with Dao. She is a life-giving place of rest and rebirth. However, it’s taken me decades of practice to even begin to feel her eternal - yet impersonal - healing flow.

There’s a natural flow of things that once entered is outside and beyond any notions of forceful ‘giving up’. However, any successes I’ve had in aligning myself with that flow have meant much work. It’s been an ongoing process of ‘letting go’ - letting go of existing attachments and desires to feel my way into something more fulfilling. It’s been a gradual movement into more and more subtle reality; a movement away from the intensity that’s so much a part of contemporary life. I’ve learnt that all intensity is potentially addictive (including discussions on this web forum). It’s easy to move into intensity – indeed it’s most compelling – yet it tends to become a trap that’s difficult to escape from. After any intense experience it takes time to readjust and regain the sensitivity necessary to feel into the subtle fullness of ‘emptiness’. And I seek to hone my sensitivity and grow my roots into that ancient, eternal ‘silence’ of Valley Spirit. That’s where I find my inner peace, my innate belonging.

Any relevant discussion welcome. For me, that has been the case. That's the way my life has flowed. It hasn't been deliberate. However, for those on a mystical path, I find some truth in these words from Meister Eckhart (if not their war-like imagery)...... 'Whoso loveth aught but me, whoso cleaveth to father or mother, or many other things, he is not worthy of me. I came not upon earth to bring peace but a sword; to cut away all things, to part thee from brother, child, mother and friend, which are really thy foes. For verily thy comforts are thy foes. Doth thine eye see all things and thine ear hear all things and thy heart remember them all, then in these things thy soul is destroyed.

Journeying to Valley Spirit Long ago I heard of valley spirit, Today I climb her barrier mountains. The lands of Wu and You – East and West – merging, Heaven and Earth – day and night – floating together. From family and friends, a gentle parting, Old and patient, my small boat adrift. Beyond the shores, conditioned mind turmoil, I sit in stillness and tears flow. (Shaped from Climbing Yueyang Tower by Du Fu, c 770AD.)

“Vulnerability is not weakness, and the uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure we face every day are not optional. Our only choice is a question of engagement. Our willingness to own and engage with our vulnerability determines the depth of our courage and the clarity of our purpose; the level to which we protect ourselves from being vulnerable is a measure of our fear and disconnection.” - Brené Brown This insight strikes at a core purpose of my personal cultivation. Learning wise engagement with my many vulnerabilities is an ongoing learning process for me. I strengthen myself with the many Daoist and other practices I’ve learnt along the way – but that strength has the danger of becoming a shield behind which I hide my vulnerabilities. For me, it’s all about learning to wisely use that strength to, little by little, allow my vulnerabilities. It’s a slow process because my most sensitive vulnerabilities are so deeply hidden within me that I’m not even aware of them. I can only glimpse them by, for instance, noting how I react to situations and people; to that great teacher called life experience. Strong emotional reactions show me I’m near to becoming aware of some hidden vulnerability.

Oh Stosh! that's such a big question. I'll leave it open for others to reply if they so desire. CT has made an interesting start. My only comment at this stage is that some Daoists aim for immortality. However I'm not one of them. (Indeed, although I like much about Daoism, I don't consider myself a Daoist.) Basically, what you're asking is way beyond my experience. However I agree with CT that for people on a spiritual path our intrinsic vulnerability is something to be worked with, not hidden from.

The English word vulnerable derives from Latin vulnerare ‘to wound’. Hence I see ‘vulnerability’ as susceptibility to be wounded either physically, energetically, emotionally, or spiritually. As a human I am consciously able to correct some (hopefully many) of my acquired vulnerabilities through methods such as, for instance, Daoist praxis, but underneath there will always be vulnerabilities that are intrinsically human.

I have many vulnerabilities, hence this topic is deeply meaningful for me. I certainly don’t see them as a virtue but as an attribute humans have, indeed all living things have. I wrote of my insights for my own clarity and also because sharing experiences is vital for anyone on a path of personal growth. I would have floundered long ago without the benefit of other people’s experiences. I reciprocate in the hope my words may resonate with someone else. Connection through shared inner experience is the life-blood of my practice. I have no desire to convince anyone who doesn’t relate to what I feel, but also I don’t like it when someone seems to (deliberately?) misinterpret my meaning, or to have not properly read my posts on the subject. Disputation that seem to revolve around words rather than intent feels counterproductive to me – like it’s creating imaginary difference for the sake of disputation.

The need to intimidate arises from a need to protect (often subconscious) vulnerabilities?

When I read the following passages from Damo Mitchell’s White Moon on the Mountain Peak I realised what I was trying to express in this thread under the heading of “Vulnerability” is akin to Damo’s insights into the nature of true humility. (Personally, I don’t like to use the word “humility” because it’s become a virtually meaningless cliché in spiritual circles. And too often it has negative connotations due to its association with false humility.) Humility Humility is an extremely Yin state of being. To be able to place yourself behind others is a difficult thing but important in Daoism. Energetically, this serves to create a powerful vacuum within your Xing, which draws spiritual learning towards you. When humbling yourself before a trusted teacher (or a deity in religious Daoism), you are manifesting the potential to draw teachings into the centre of your being. This is why so many practitioners in the past have had deep spiritual experiences when prostrating themselves before statues of Daoist immortals. In Daoist teachings, it should be one of your aims to be humble beneath the entire universe and understand humility before all beings. In this way the power of Dao, which flows through the cosmos, can enter you and make every aspect of life your teacher. There are various difficulties here, though. First, humility cannot be forced upon yourself. If you try to be humble, you just create false humility, which is a very common facet of human nature. False humility is often a mask for arrogance, hidden by a verbal expression of humility. To become humble, you must understand that being humble is a very scary thing. Humility opens up the core of your being to the outside world, which leaves the acquired mind feeling extremely vulnerable. This feeling of insecurity then causes the acquired mind to try to strengthen itself through building more layers, more pieces of projected, emotionally based untruth, behind which the true self hides. Each and every time you have been hurt, made to feel small or stepped on by another, you have probably moved yourself further from a state of humility. It is for this reason that the early stages of any internal practice should really be to free yourself from as many tethers to the acquired mind as you can. By purging these emotional imbalances, your mind begins to feel more secure and therefore humility does not seem so scary a state of being. The vacuum opens and then the 'cup has been emptied'. Only at this stage can true teachings really be absorbed. Humility cannot be forced; it is a state of being that will grow naturally once the right level has been reached. This is a highly relieving state to reach — akin to a breath of fresh air for the mind. It is said that 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear', and I believe this time is when humility is beginning to blossom within the student's Heart. A second difficulty comes from the fact that humility from the student must also be matched by humility from the teacher, together with an openness to teaching. A student's humility met by a closed-off teacher will usually result in an imbalance of trust, which then leads to abuse occurring somewhere along the line. The teacher must be open to imparting information and humble to the higher powers of existence; otherwise, transmission of the method will not take place to the required degree. (From White Moon on the Mountain Peak. The first paragraph is from p 83 and the remainder from p 295.)