Geof Nanto

ReturnDragon (aka ChiDragon) was included in the mass banning purge which Trunk implemented on becoming administrator in April 2020. I never had much interaction with him, but to my understanding he was not banned because of any obnoxious manner. Rather, he was banned because a number of members considered he was posting excessive amounts of misinformation. While I react negatively to anyone posting what I consider to be false information, and appreciate to effort members put in to counter it, the moderators made it clear in relation to Covid 19 discussions that their job is to ensure discussion is respectful and abides by the forum rules, not to decide what is false information and what is not. If that’s the case, looked at objectively, did ChiDragon violate any forum rules? In retrospect, was he wrongly banned?

How my compost toilet looks above: And below where the composting happens: This toilet holds compost comprising over 15 years of my shit mixed with wood shavings. It’s amazing how what would otherwise be a huge pile composts down to a relatively small amount of garden rich nutrient. I haven't had to empty it yet, but I do need to rake down every few months the pile that forms in the centre. (Before health regulations forced me to install it, I had a pit toilet which worked very well too and required no maintenance at all. It composted happily by itself with help from ongoing contact with the soil.) I think with the right attitude the same alchemical transmutation can happen here on Dao Bums; that the great piles of words we deposit here can go through a slow composting and transmutation process within our individual psyches so that the true essence of our words turns into rich cultivation nutrient. At least, that’s what I feel is happening with my engagement here.

Of great relevance here is the fact that Sean, the site owner, has made it very clear that he wants Dao Bums to be a forum underpinned by kindness and compassion. To my observation, the upholding of these qualities by staff is the fundamental reason Dao Bums has survived as a vibrant place. Sure, robust discussion is welcome here because allowing respectful disagreement gives this forum its vitality. But the key word here is respectful. If Taoist Texts or anyone else wants to promote a form of Daoism or any other philosophy which goes against these values, or engage in the type of discussion characterised by trying to demean and belittle anyone who disagrees with them, then the site owner has made it clear that they are not welcome here. You've tagged @zerostao and @steve. I'll add @Trunk, @ilumairen and @dwai

I have no trouble accepting the reality of what the label ‘non-dual’ attempts to convey. It’s something I intuitively feel and have done so for a long time, well before I heard the label non-dual. That sense has continued to deepen ‘self-so’ with my ongoing cultivation practice. Yet, although it’s becoming increasingly palpable as a felt sense, it also reveals itself as a deeper and deeper mystery. I can well understand why a person who intuitively senses this would remain silent. Hence the saying from the Daodejing: “Those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak.” My trouble with this discussion is the way I see ‘non-dual’ is being presented as a monism (by Dwai and Stirling in particular). And monism implies hidden dualism. Hence this discussion reveals plenty of dualism (duel-ism). In fact, it’s being energised by dualism. For me the message that’s being shouted here by the most outspoken of those who label themselves as non-dualists, namely that the poor ignorant masses suffer terribly because they don’t know this amazing numinous truth of nondualism, is more to banish their own hidden doubts; doubts that they themselves are, in fact, far removed from this deep ineffable mystery. What I’ve written so far enters me into the fray of duel-ism. I’m very much aware of that and it’s not a place I want to dwell. However, I am irritated by some of the ignorant assumptions that are being propagated here. (Yet I’m also impressed by some of the deep thinking on the subject by most people and Apech in particular, not to mention Bindi’s ability to take on multiple opponents with seemingly undiminished energy). To my mind this discussion has now gone on long enough for each of us to express (or at least acknowledge privately to ourselves) our motives for participating. An obvious one for me is my need for connection. Another is to assert myself as a separate individual. Yet I also feel how we are all part of a whole. Even though I’m expressing disagreement with attitudes of some members, I like them as people, especially when they reveal something of their personal stories. That is a truth and so is the truth of separation. Connection and separation; a yin-yang pair, both of which need to be honoured as vital constituents of the non-dual. I rest my case. And conclude by acknowledging the importance of this forum to me as a place where I can express my thoughts on experiences central to my life and likewise read (and sometimes feel) those of other people. This is a great gift.

I’ll stick with a laugh emoticon for that reply because it made me smile. But I’d add a ‘Thanks’ as well if I could. And also the non-existent emoticon which says, ‘Yes, but there is another side to this’... I made that comment to make it clear that I have severe reservations about the contemporary nondual school as described by a couple of prominent nondualists on this forum (not Steve). But, along with that, I’d also like to make clear that I have no doubts about the sincerity of these nondualists and their genuine commitment to a spiritual path. I like them as people and value them as members of this forum. It’s just the path they espouse that I don’t like. To me it feels like spiritual opium; a seductive and addictive trap that ultimately prevents deeper realisation.

Not so difficult to understand as concepts. Extremely difficult to attain as lived reality. “… those who study Taoism may be as numerous as hairs on a cow, but those who accomplish the Way are as rare as unicorn horns.” ~ Liu Yiming (Of course, the exception to this is the contemporary so-called ‘Non-dualist’ school where those who have found enlightenment are as numerous as hairs on a cow.)

Yes he is. I’ve previously posted a couple of interesting accounts from John Blofeld which highlight the importance of the eyes: (Note for aspiring non-dualists, the second account may greatly interest you.)

And the box is only about half full. Like Natural said, it happens naturally. Or ‘self-so’ (ziran 自然), to use Daoist terminology. Yet it embraces natural processes which are almost infinitely complex. But that doesn't mean I want to immerse myself in that pile!

I was brought up without any connection with religion in a family who aspired to rational materialism. It has only been through my own experiences and, in particular, reading Carl Jung’s insights into the deeper meaning of Christian theology that I’ve gained a great respect for the inner core of that religion. Perhaps because I wasn’t immersed in it from childhood, Christian iconography stirs no strong emotions within me. Even so, I find that image of Christ powerful and even more so when I read on Wikipedia how it was created. I know from previous posts of yours that you have a strong Christian background. How do you feel about that image?

I understand where you’re coming from with your comment and I respect it. However, you don’t know me and how important connection with the sacred is in my life. I consider my whole house a temple and that includes the loo. To me it’s all sacred space including the surrounding forest. It’s a sacredness that embraces the mundane, is naturally occurring and felt inwardly when connecting with both the visible and invisible worlds. I built the structure that houses that compost toilet myself and am pleased with the warm feeling of qi that pervades the space inside. There’s a classic essay on traditional Japanese aesthetics by Jun'ichirō Tanizaki titled In Praise of Shadows. I highly recommend this excellent reading of it on YouTube. Of relevance here, starting around the 5 minute mark, he gives an enchanting description of the traditional Japanese toilet as a place of spiritual repose. Mine, especially at night, evokes some similar experiences. (As background information and to directly address your question, I’m not a Christian and feel no connection with their iconography. So the idea of putting a statue of Jesus in my loo or anywhere else is totally foreign to me. Whereas the Buddha statues, of which I have several, feel deeply meaningful for me. For a couple of years in the early days of my spiritual seeking I lived at various Buddhist meditation centres, including over a year at a forest monastery I particularly liked. I felt an inner resonance with those places. They felt familiar, like returning to a lost home. Part of my inner core felt like it had experienced a lifetime as a Buddhist monastic. Although I don’t consider myself a Buddhist now I have a great respect for that religion.)

See above reply. It's a fully enclosed unit that's dug into the ground a little. At the front there is about 300mm below the ground. It's base is level so it's much deeper buried at the back. And yes, that's a trap for small insects made out of a drink bottle. The local council here is very strict on it, made everyone in the district upgrade from pit toilets. They said it was a state-wide health department regulation but maybe that was misinformation. I resisted for a few years but eventually relented and built a new annex on the side of my house to accommodate it. Having done so, I'm pleased I did as it saves walking outside to the pit loo which was located about 10 metres from my house. A small comfort that I appreciate as I get older.

When it comes to Buddhas in my loo, It’s definitely a case of not-two. If you look more closely at the photo (maybe zoon in) you’ll see the item on the left is a pottery lantern which actually bears no resemblance to a Buddharupa. The one on right has been sitting there for years and is a fully awakened follower of the Way and hence knows there is no place the Way doesn’t exist, including in piss and shit. From Burton Watson’s translation of the Zhuangzi: Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way - where does it exist?" Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist." "Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!" "It is in the ant." "As low a thing as that?" "It is in the panic grass." "But that's lower still!" "It is in the tiles and shards." "How can it be so low?" "It is in the piss and shit!" Master Tung-kuo made no reply.

@awaken I am not a Chinese speaker so I have no idea what 鞏三孝 means outside of translation I get on Google. In the absence of information from other Chinese speakers, I am happy to accept the explanation he has given of what it means. However, I agree with him that your posts are almost useless for English speakers because the translations of key Daoist cultivation terms are so bad. You are doing your teachings and Daoism in general no favours by persevering. I have said it before and I'll say it again: If you want to reach an English speaking audience, you would do much better by putting your effort into correcting the Google translations on a smaller number of posts, rather than making a large number of essentially meaningless posts for English speakers.

Worth repeating. I know from reading your input on this forum over many years that you’re just as messed up as the rest of us. But your insight into the essence of cultivation and, in particular, your ability to express it in words is excellent. Thank you. And thank you to everyone else whose thoughtful input makes this forum a meaningful place for me to develop and clarify my own insights. For this, opposition is equally as important, if not more important, than agreement. I just received a new William Blake book and on browsing it this line of his stood out: “Opposition is true Friendship”. As is my want I did a quick web search and the first article I found on it had this passage: In his Marriage of Heaven and Hell (1793), William Blake says that “Opposition is true Friendship” and insists that attempts to reconcile difference are likely to “destroy existence”. The diversity of life is diminished when one person tries to convert another to their truth. Whole ways of life disappear when one group imposes their system on others. What Blake sees is that difference is good. He’d have felt at home among the many Native Americans who insist that difference is an invitation rather than a barrier to relationship. René Descartes asserted: “I think therefore I am.” Animists insist: “We greet therefore we are.”

I just read the relevant post on Original Dao that Steve referenced: https://www.originaldao.com/viewtopic.php?t=1888 Basically the site owner seems to be saying that people with strong political agendas destroyed the possibility of free political discussion. In other words, a great paradox: allowing free speech destroyed the possibility of free speech. I think Dao Bums through trial and error has come a workable compromise with the current setup of having Current Affairs as a closed sub-forum. Agreed. I think it's vital that this forum remains open and welcoming to anyone and everyone who respects the discussion protocols this forum has established. Hence there's no way would I welcome back those ex-members with strong opinions who didn’t discuss but rather always came across as trying to knock out anyone who opposed them....Unless they have radically changed, of course....Not just as an act, but from the core of their being.

Thank you Steve. I certainly never expected a response as favourable as that. My reaction is likewise one of gratitude and humility. Significantly, your words suggest my post didn’t touch on any strongly held hidden dualities within your psyche. Part of my reason in posting was to let go of my feelings of adversity to the way prominent non-dualists on this forum are continually promoting their perspective. A non-oppositional reply such as yours makes it easier to do so. Another part of my reason for posting was to see if anyone says anything that provokes a strong emotional reaction in me; that is, one that triggers hidden aspects within my psyche. Experience has shown me, taking note of that is a valuable way to enrich my perspective, though not necessarily in ways in line with what is being said. But most of all, having written what I’ve written, I’d like to bow out of this conversation. I will of course continue to read comments with interest, as I do on all topics here that interest me. I appreciate the effort people put into these Dao Bum discussions. I very much need the input as a counterbalance to my mostly silent, semi-reclusive, forest dwelling lifestyle. Moreover, there’s a strand within my psyche making itself felt in stronger and stronger ways that is telling me it’s no longer appropriate for me to make posts like that one. I’m needing to keep what little energy I have in my older age for inner development; to shut the gates and close the doors. Yet experience has shown me I must continue the long process of shedding beliefs and opinions by engaging in dialogue with the outer world, elsewise it’s like trying to seal up a wound that still needs to shed foreign matter. Thankfully, because I’m feeling more at peace within myself and with the world at large than ever before, I feel I’m nearing the end of that process, at least sufficiently to continue productive inner cultivation with ever less outer engagement. Besides, my declining energy levels give me no choice.

My other gripe with non-dualists is their assumption that everybody would want to immerse themselves in the bliss of non-dual union if only they had felt it for themselves. That is not my wish, although it was when I first had a powerful spiritual experience. But since then, I’ve been guided towards something which is more akin to what many alchemical texts describe in both in the Western and Chinese spiritual traditions.

I have no problems with accepting the non-dual nature of absolute reality but I do have problems with those on this forum who speak of it as if it's their lived reality. Here's something I wrote in my journal a few months ago which I've been reluctant to post because of its controversial nature but will do so now in the interests of presenting my perspective, and out of curiosity to see what reaction it gets: Although absolute reality may be non-dual, we are very much living in a world of dualities; of complementary yin-yang polar opposites. Without polarity there can be no energy flows, and without energy flows all life as we know it would cease to exist. Our psyche (mind in the greater sense) is likewise powered by polar differentials. Within some contemporary spiritual circles, this deeply perplexing inner tension caused by the inherent polarity of our lived reality is simply bypassed. Identification with the light of divinity is proclaimed as an absolute truth and no mention is made of its opposite, namely the fact that most of what constitutes our psyche is shrouded in darkness. Hence, a one-sided attitude, brought about by a glimpse into the numinousity of transcendent reality, gets called Self and non-dual is spoken of as if it’s felt as a continuously lived experience. Worse, the glimpse of ineffable experience becomes an elaborately constructed non-dual belief system. Although I feel within myself the enticement of such certainty, I also know it causes stuckness if not eventually worked through and transcended. All these spiritual beliefs (theologies, cosmologies, and cosmogonies) are like the straw dogs of the Daodejing – something to be revered while useful, but then to be discarded once their purpose is served. Non-dualists recognise this yet their words and their continual need to promote non-dualism reveals a strong inner dualism (such as is apparent in this discussion). Carl Jung observed that an ego inflation arises when the enlightened one identifies with his own light and confuses his ego with the Self. "He [the spiritual seeker] forgets that light only has a meaning when it illuminates something dark and that his enlightenment is no good to him unless it helps him to recognize his own darkness." In other words, a greatly expanded ego is not the Self. (Jung uses the term ‘ego’ simply to refer to the centre of our consciousness. It has no pejorative implication like the term ‘egoism’ does.) One of Jung’s closest colleagues, Marie-Louise von Franz continues (edited): “Are we today, after over two millennia of spiritual heritage, mature enough to understand and realize our divinity without forgetting our smallness and darkness? The phenomenon of the Self, in which all the opposites are united, is, as Jung constantly stressed, simply inconceivable, a mystery with which one had better not identify, as long as one is in possession of one's normal faculties. We humans cannot master the uncanny polarity within our own nature; instead we must learn to understand it as an objective psychic content within ourselves, as a numinous experience which in the past was reserved for the few, but which takes hold of more and more people in the contemporary world.” Of course, we’ve all heard of the great ones in every spiritual tradition who were able to master “the uncanny polarity within our own nature.” However, having numinous experiences, as a number of people on this forum have had, only marks the beginning of a life-time’s journey towards total transcendence; a goal that’s rarely achieved.

That's a very good way of expressing it IMO. Good insights in those questions but much too subjective for me to attempt to reply to because, to my mind, it’s something we all need to come to terms with in ways that suit our innate disposition and external circumstances. For me personally as an older person it means attempting to feel real connection with something deeper than these types of egregores in the way that I tried to explain in the final two paragraphs of my OP. If I could rely entirely on these human created egregores for heart and mind connection and support, then I would have no need to go deeper. Alas, the present societal situation which you outline, world history and my experience with groups confirms to me that that's not the case now, nor has it ever been. But I certainly value that we humans attempt, with varying degrees of success, to create supportive groups and societies. I could not live without the material and cultural structures they provide, and I have spent a good part of my life contributing to these. I honour them, try to help maintain them if I can, yet increasingly feel detached from them. Detached, but not opposed or alienated. Whereas, beginning in my early adolescence and for quite some time, I felt a terrible alienation from the world at large including peer groups, felt opposed to all societal dominants, yet desperately wanted to be a part of it all. It’s only in retrospect I can acknowledge that because of this I felt a terrible existential loneliness. When I was in it, I needed to keep that feeling almost totally suppressed or it would have overwhelmed me. But thankfully, through a process of inner change, that unhealthy alienation has slowly transmuted through successive stages of more subtle connection into a healthy sense of belonging to a far greater reality.

From Wikipedia: “Egregore (also spelled egregor; from French égrégore, from Ancient Greek ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful') is an occult concept representing a distinct non-physical entity that arises from a collective group of people. Historically, the concept referred to angelic beings, or watchers, and the specific rituals and practices associated with them, namely within Enochian traditions. More contemporarily, the concept has referred to a psychic manifestation, or thoughtform, occurring when any group shares a common motivation—being made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of the group.” The most comprehensive short introduction to the subject of egregores I’ve found is here: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Egregore “Every group, congregation, society, or party, has an egregore, a group consciousness, which may be weak or strong.” Lineage is another one we are all particularly familiar with. Underneath these ones are ones that are so pervasive that they are all but invisible. They form the zeitgeist, the spirit of the times. Can we do without them? I say, no. We need their protection and support in order to grow spiritually. They give our individual hearts and minds ‘houses and cities’ in which we find shelter and community. The best we can do is to be aware of their pervasive reality in both the secular and spiritual worlds. When I find an egregore that resonates with me and I align myself with it, I become an active participant in building its power. For instance, it’s insightful to witness myself and other members of this forum working at strengthening the power of our pet egregores. Egregores want to grow and are forever seeking new members. With that knowledge we have some chance to discern between helpful and harmful egregores and realise how staying too long within the shelter of a particular egregore can change it from helpful to harmful – like how a plaster cast helps a broken arm to heal but keeping it on after the healing is complete weakens the arm. I have been drawn to, and greatly benefited from, the shelter of a number of egregores over the course of the decades of my inner and outer cultivation practice. And I still need aspects of many. But slowly, very slowly, as I grow more individuated – that is, more Self-connected – I find myself being guided towards feeling warmly comfortable as a homeless wanderer. Not homeless in the traditional sense of the wandering monk without a fixed place of physical residence – I very much need the shelter of my forest cabin, my temple – but homeless in the metaphorical sense of having successive egregores lose their ability to provide shelter. But I’m only able to sustainably do this to the extent I’m able to find heart-felt connection with more subtle realms outside and beyond these. And nurturing that connection is the most meaningful thing in my life. I could say I’m feeling my way into an egregore of the divine; of asking to be shown how to make ‘myself’ worthy of that place of belonging. Or, stated another way, of cultivating in a way that allows the embryotic Self to grow within me. In other words, my progression is one of refining my egregore support – and hence the egregore I help uphold – towards the increasingly subtle, yet at the same time the increasingly real.

Yes, I would. And there are a number of very committed people who are at its core, mostly women. They put plenty of effort into trying to create a caring and supportive community. BTW It's a rural community spread over a large area with about 200 people in total.

Yes, you are correct. Egregores are definitely not pets. I saw that was a misleading expression of what I meant when I reread my post but didn’t edit because I didn’t consider it central to my meaning and I thought if anyone picks up on it I will correct it then. As to the remainder of your post, you are describing egregores in the more conventional, negative sense. I wanted to get away from that narrow fear-based perspective and outline how pervasive egregores are and how helpful they can be. I was hoping my meaning was clear from what I’ve already said. If not, then so be it. That is not to say the subject isn’t worthy of further discussion, just that I personally do not want to comment on it any further at this stage. But I will definitely read further comments with interest.

For those who haven’t seen it, there’s a very comprehensive essay on ming-xing written by Fabrizio Pregadio available here: http://www.fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf I recommend it as an addition to the recent Dao Bums topic on ming-xing cultivation here. It clarifies key concepts and gives historical context to that whole discussion. I’ve started it as a new topic because of the central place ming-xing cultivation occupies in Neidan. For me though, my actual experiences arising from my life and my practice (these are not two) must always be primary. Theory such as this gives language and lineage context for those experiences – and it’s massively helpful on many levels, for sure – but once past beginning stages, I've found it unhelpful to try to emulate the theory rather than allowing my own path to unfold as it will, self-so. In other words, what interests me is my own experience of the illusive inner reality that this theory tries to explain. I can feel my path leading me somewhere, but where it’s leading is an ever-unfolding mystery. The later sections of Pregadio’s essay have given me some insight into what I'm beginning to feel with his discussion of true and false xing and ming. Comments welcome but please read this essay properly first!

Heaps more rain again yesterday and last night on the already soaked ground. The causeway down the road is bound to be too flooded to safely cross for the next few days at least. But as I wasn’t planning on going anywhere anyway, that doesn’t worry me. What I don’t like though about extended wet periods is that I tend to spend all day inside rather than doing stuff outside and wandering the forest as is my usual daytime activity. I’ll check out the river once it stops raining but I know it has risen considerably because there is an automatic river level monitoring station about a km downstream from my place. This is what it’s showing now: Looks like it will peak about 9 metres, so not a level that’s likely to cause riparian zone damage. But the place where I stood to take the above photo will be over 6 metres underwater now and the river a muddy torrent once again. Edit to update: Well, I was wrong about the river peaking at 9 metres. It’s now peaked at a little over 11 metres. I didn’t realise how much rain had fallen further up in the catchment area. I’m not so optimistic now about minimal riparian zone damage, especially considering that the banks were already soft from previous inundation. This is the fourth flood peak in less than a month. Totally unprecedented in living memory around here. Nothing I can do though but wait and see. I do my best to heal the land where I can and give the native fauna a place where they can roam freely. I’ve gained plenty of wisdom (and healthy qi) through my relationship with the land and it is very much a part of my cultivation practice. We have a saying around here, “Help heal the land, the land helps heal you”. As part of this education, I’ve learnt through fire and flood to accept how nature both nurtures and destroys in massive ways.

Although I’m not a big poster here, I read all the discussion on topics that interest me. I need this forum for the connections it gives me with people on a wide variety of spiritual paths. Although where I live has strong secular community support and is a very friendly place to be, my natural inclination as an older person is to favour a relatively reclusive lifestyle with a strong connection to the stillness of nature. Dao Bums is the only social media I contribute to, and what I like about this forum is that it doesn’t favour any particular egregore (though it does have a definite zeitgeist). Sure, people regularly push their own cultivation practice or conceptual perspectives, putting effort into explaining why they see theirs as the best. And that’s a good thing providing it doesn’t become excessive. That’s what keeps the forum alive. People who come here are looking for meaningful spiritual practice or to discuss the practice they have. Over time, some cultivation practices and conceptual perspectives have found resonance here while others have fallen by the wayside. Hopefully, that’s a reflection of their underlying harmony or disharmony with the flow of Dao. Yet on occasions an individual or a group puts in so much effort to build their egregore that their posting becomes way excessive. That saddens me, especially when it comes from anyone who claims Daoist credentials. I did some searching of the vast Dao Bums archive which extends right back past pre-Han times into the Warring States period (a state never far beneath the surface of the continuing present) and found this ancient version of Daodejing 29: If we seek to seize this forum and dominate it: I see this as unachievable. Dao Bums is a spiritual vessel. We cannot meddle with it, nor can we control it. Those who meddle with it, ruin it. Those who control it, lose it. This is why wise people do not meddle with things, and so do not ruin or lose them. It is the nature of things either to lead the way, or follow after. Either to breathe in through the nose, or blow out through the mouth. They are either strong, or weak. They either make it, or fail. This is why wise people do away with excess, and do away with waste and extravagance.