Geof Nanto

I appreciate your perspective, however I'm someone who had far too much conceptual knowledge and far too little direct connection with life. I've needed to leave the monasteries, meditation halls and human teachers and venture forth into the 'silence' that can still be found in remote wilderness areas. (Then again, I've found myself to be a Daoist at heart, so my contributions to these Buddhist threads are very much from that perspective.)

The goanna in question was about a metre long (that's 3 feet in American). They are not aggressive and do not hunt animals. Your photo is misleading in that the goanna shown would be eating the carcass of an already dead animal. However my post was actually meant as a serious contribution to the discussion here. Are all these concepts really the essence of Buddhism??? Connection with the great teachings of our natural world seem to have been lost somewhere along the way.

When I was eating lunch yesterday on the front deck of my small cabin a goanna came and joined me. It was eating its own lunch - a large paper wasp nest. I was glad of it; those paper wasps pack a nasty sting and the nest must have been directly under the deck below my outside washing basin. After checking me out it set off on slow, meandering explorations along the deck, and then jumped across to the top of the tree-fern next to the water tank. I guess it could smell the freshly hatched egg shells there.

I’m no drinker of wine, but I like T’ao Ch’ien’s earthy Daoism. He lived a simple farming life and was dismissive of any sort of formal practice. In a response to the question, "According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought all the time?" I suspect he'd offer a hoe to work the fields and share a cup of wine at days end after the work was done. His life entailed much hardship, but he rejoiced in the abundance of the natural world. I Vigor and ruin never stay put. Here, there – all things share in this alike. Farming melons, how could Shao live anything like that royal life he lost? Cold dies into hot, hot into cold. It's our Way, too. Nothing is immune. But those who understand it live their lives worry-free. Whenever chance brings along a jar of wine, they'll take it, all delight as night falls. 2 The Way's been in ruins a thousand years. People all hoard their hearts away: so busy scrambling for esteemed position, they'd never touch wine. But whatever makes living precious occurs in this one life, and this life never lasts. It's startling, sudden as lightning. These hundred years offer all abundance: Take it! What more could you make of yourself? (Written around 400 AD and translated by David Hinton.)

Anything can be a path, even a demon. Anything can be a demon, even a path.

I find no value in the diagram either, but I disagree with your statement "consciousness resides in the brain". The brain is so intimately connected with the whole body and hence the environment that such a statement is misleading at the best. And that's without going into experiences of the subtle body. However theories of consciousness are something whole books are written about - it's one of the great mysteries of life. Certain theories resonate with my own experience, but these materialist 'brain and mind are one' theories are not to my liking.

I've worked with many teachers both formally and informally and I agree the empathy connection is all important. In a very real way it's sacred and hence something to be discussed only with those who respect it. However, I suspect we all need to eventually find our own way. A teacher can only take us so far. As the well known saying goes, "Kill the Buddha!" Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature.

“I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.” Isaac Newton

A great link Gerald, thanks. Giovanni Maciocia is an excellent communicator. When I was listening I thought I'd like a transcript, so I was pleased to find this on his blog at... http://maciociaonline.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/shen-and-hun-psyche-in-chinese-medicine.html Here are the introductory paragraphs.... SHEN AND HUN: THE PSYCHE IN CHINESE MEDICINE This article will discuss the nature and functions of the Shen and Hun in the human psyche. This will be based on classical texts and on my own thoughts and clinical experience. There will be five parts to this discussion: 1) The nature of the Shen 2) The nature of the Hun 3) The Shen and Hun and the pre-frontal cortex 4) The Shen and Hun and mirror neurons 5) The Shen and Hun and Jungian psychology. The longer I practise, the more I think that in clinical practice we can interpret most mental-emotional problems in terms of the "five spirits" as well as of "patterns of disharmony". The "five spirits", in Chinese called the "Five Shen" [五 神], are the Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi residing respectively in the Heart, Liver, Lungs, Spleen and Kidneys. For example, irrespective of the pattern of disharmony involved, I see depression as a manifestation of lack of movement of the Hun and manic behaviour as a manifestation of excessive movement of the Hun. To give another example, I see bipolar disease mostly as a Hun disharmony while I see anxiety mostly as a Shen and Po disharmony.

From a Daoist perspective rather than ‘awakening’ I'd express it as 'fulfillment'. We enter into a state of whole of life wu wei. In my own life it's a state I enter at times but cannot maintain. Here’s how Jung describes such a state in his commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower…… Obviously it is always an unfortunate thing to express, in intellectual terms, subtle feelings which are none the less infinitely important for the life and well-being of the individual. In a certain sense, the thing we are trying to express is the feeling of having been " replaced ", but without the connotation of having been " deposed ". It is as if the leadership of the affairs of life had gone over to an invisible centre. Nietzsche's metaphor, "In most loving bondage, free," would be appropriate here. Religious speech is full of imaginative expressions that picture this feeling of free dependence, of calm and devotion. In this remarkable experience I see a phenomenon resulting from the detachment of consciousness, through which the subjective " I live ", becomes the objective " It lives me ". This condition is felt to be higher than the earlier one; it is really as if it were a sort of release from compulsion and impossible responsibility which are the inevitable results of participation mystique. This feeling of release filled Paul completely. It is the consciousness of being a child of God which then frees one from the spell of the blood. Also, it is a feeling of reconciliation with what is happening, and that is the reason that the glance of " one who has attained fulfilment ", according to the Hui Ming Ching, returns to the beauty of nature.

Classical Daoism is all about enhancing yin / learning to work with yin. For instance, these nine principles of early Tianshi Daoism derive from various chapters of the Daodejing... THE NINE PRACTICES OF EARLY TIANSHI DAOISM 1. Practice non-action (wuwei). 2. Practice softness and weakness (rouruo). 3. Practice guarding the feminine (shouci). Do not initiate actions. 4. Practice being nameless (wuming). 5. Practice clarity and stillness (qingjing). 6. Practice being adept (zhushan). 7. Practice being desireless (wuyu). 8. Practice ceasing with sufficiency (zhizu). 9. Practice yielding and withdrawing (tuirang).

@ Orion You express yourself well and I’m deeply touched by your sincerity. I’ve read this thread with great interest and particularly like 9th’s comprehensive initial reply. I hesitate to write because it seems to me intellectual knowledge is of no real help here. Perhaps the best I can do is to express my feeling of empathy for your search. Too much conceptualisation is a problem in that it separates me from direct connection with nature. For me it’s about a different experience of life; a different way of being in the world. The actualisation of this simple realisation is at the heart of classical Daoism. For me, in the situation you describe, it’s definitely not about learning to accept pointlessness, but rather about real action to change my situation into one that’s meaningful. I’ve needed to make a series of radical changes in my lifestyle over the past 40 years or so of my adult life. I’ve had little option but to follow my changing inner reality; when what was once meaningful becomes meaningless then I must move on. Certainly I’ve made many, many mistakes - but because they’ve been my mistakes pertaining to my ‘weaknesses’, they’ve given me totally meaningful experience (in retrospect, certainly not at the time). To my observation, that’s how it is for everyone who pursues their own authentic path; in Jung’s words, the path of individuation. Here how he expresses it in terms of chakra theory….. “When you have actually entered a higher chakra you never really turn back. Part of you can split off, but the further you have reached into the series of chakras, the more expensive will be the apparent return. Or if you return, having lost the meaning of connection with that centre, then you are like a wraith. In reality you are just nothing, a mere shadow, and your experience remains empty.” (from C G Jung The Psychology of Kundalini Yoga )

Here’s a passage from Heat and Dust by Ruth Jhabuala that illustrates this fear perfectly. The book is set amongst the English as colonisers in India before WWII and the speakers are English administrators revealing their Indian experience; but it could well be read as a description of ‘masculine’ unified rational certainty confronting ‘feminine’ mystery reified as India..... “Although the Major was so sympathetic to India, his piece sounds like a warning. He said one has to be very careful to withstand - to stand up to - India. And the most vulnerable, he said, are always those who love her the best. There are many ways of loving India, many things to love her for - the scenery, the history, the poetry, the music, and indeed the physical beauty of the men and women - but all, said the Major, are dangerous for the European who allows himself to love too much. India always, he said, finds out the weak spot and presses on it. Both Dr Saunders and Major Minnies spoke of the weak spot. But whereas for Dr Saunders it is something, or someone rotten, for the Major the weak spot is to be found in the most sensitive, often the finest people - and moreover, in their finest feelings. It is there that India seeks them out and pulls them over into what the Major called the other dimension. He also referred to it as another element; one in which the European is not accustomed to live so that by immersion in it he becomes debilitated, or even destroyed. Yes, concluded the Major, it’s all very well to love and admire India - intellectually, aesthetically, he did not mention sexually but he must have been aware of that factor too - but always with a virile, measured, European feeling. One should never, he warned, allow oneself to become softened (like Indians) by an excess of feeling; because the moment that happens - the moment one exceeds one’s measure - one is in danger of being dragged over to the other side. That seems to be the last word Major Minnies had to say on the subject and his final conclusion. He who loved India so much, knew her so well, chose to spend the end of his days here. But she remained always for him an opponent, even sometimes an enemy, to be guarded and if necessary fought against from without, and especially from within; from within ones’ own being.” I think it’s a valid fear - ‘she’ does destroy, but destroys in order to create anew, to allow new growth - the possibility of an expanded self (for those who survive).

When I read narrow agenda orientated posts like Karl’s I’m reminded of how psychologist Iain McGilchrist describes what he calls the left-brain trap; we get caught in a hall of mirrors which reflects our own logic. Everything refers to something else within the hall of mirrors, but never breaks out into reality. He writes, “The more we get trapped into this, the more we undercut and ironize things that might have kept us out of it, and we just get reflected back into more of what we know about what we know about what we know....” I’ve been trapped there myself and consequently I’m under no illusions about its power. I fully believed I had real answers applicable to everybody, and had strong, rational arguments to support my perspective. The more intelligent a person is, the tighter the potential this trap has to bind.

Very true. But such one-sidedness is what has given our Western culture its dynamism, its yang strength. If everything was in balance there'd be stagnation. There can be no flow of energy without polarity. (Note how this also applies to consciousness; hence some polarity of opinion is necessary in discussions such as this one for it to meaningfully proceed.) However, as Daoist theory makes abundantly clear, any one-sidedness will eventually lead to reversal. Our Western culture is slowly losing its ability to suppress "the other side". We need to rediscover our yin strength.

"Oh -- can I just add to that last line -- That this is beautifully summed up by that movie "Chocolat" And Alfred Molina was not only fabulous in that but is a hilarious analogy to a lot of the energy I see around this forum, too. So sincere! Trying so very hard to reign it in and do what is good and right! So utterly doomed as a result LOL!" Perhaps making a comment like this is a way of preserving invulnerbility? Just a possiblity; I could well be wrong!

Exactly. This is the natural process of transformation that, for some very few of us, is followed to its extremes. It's the pattern Jung identified within himself and amongst his patients. He thought he had found something new - and this unsettled him because he considered anything without ancient roots as likely pathological. Hence he was elated to find parallels both in the obscure works of Western alchemy and, thanks to Wilhelm, in the greater clarity of Chinese alchemy. Unfortunately - and this is something redcairo has made very clear - knowing the theory can actually inhibit our ability to spontaneously live the experience. Everyone is different and change happens for all of us in unique ways appropriate to our situation. The theory comes after, and at its best, can only identify patterns and stages common to all but exactly applicable to no one . Of course these concepts are potentially useful; they're powerful tools, but only if used wisely. And for me any wisdom I have has been hard won and come slowly.

I read this a little differently. I thought the major was actually more aware on this level than Wilhelm, and thus knew to protect himself from something that could potentially destroy his image of himself as powerful and superior. I found his perspective nuanced and insightful. To my mind, Wilhelm was exactly the sort of person who, "for the Major the weak spot is to be found in the most sensitive, often the finest people - and moreover, in their finest feelings. It is there that India seeks them out and pulls them over into what the Major called the other dimension." Wilhelm wrote of his encounter with ancient Chinese wisdom in the person Lao Nai-hsuan, "Under his experienced guidance I wandered entranced through this strange and yet familiar world." Wilhelm comes across to me as an amazing person; someone I'd relate to. Whereas the major I'd find intellectually interesting yet too yang, too bounded to hold my feelings. Someone like him would unintentionally stunt by ability to fully be who I am. Like Wilhelm, I've followed my feelings as if entranced, heedless of losing myself. And lose myself I did. I've been 'destroyed' by my engagement with life....destroyed and remade with much help.

I was feeling a little overwhelmed with so many feelings arising from comments on this topic; nothing clear or simple enough to write about. Then I read this comment and I laughed.

Barn Owl

I like your yin / yang pairing of vulnerable / invulnerable. It's certainly central to my "fear of the feminine" theme. And in my observation, not allowing yin is definitely "more common in our culture than we realize." Which is why I started this thread. I'll write some more later. I'm a slow writer and not a natural when it comes to verbal communication. I need to push myself to write. I'd much rather read other people's words and ponder areas I find interesting. And there's much of interest in your posts - and indeed other people's posts on this thread that I haven't as yet replied to.

You describe the sort of cultivation practiced by the early Chinese Daoists - especially wilderness recluses. I like this strand of classical Daoism where there is nothing to willfully attain. Change comes naturally, like plants grow, bud and flower 'self-so'. Our personal 'flowering' is similarly a natural process. However, our lifestyle choices including praxis certainly plays a major role by either aiding or inhibiting our unfolding. I've browsed this thread and found much of interest - especially the comments on merging. It's always informative to read the words of others dedicated to authentic paths that differ from mine. Unfortunately, the discussion has been marred at times by an attitude of competitiveness. I was reminded of a joke I once heard...... Before enlightenment, "My dick is bigger than yours." After enlightenment, "My aura is bigger than yours."

Agreed. However it's worth reading the whole of Jung's essay on Wilhelm to understand more fully why his situation made this impossible. It's not lengthy and it's available online here..... http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/history/teachers/richard-wilhelm/carl-jung-on-richar-wilhelm/ Wilheim, of course, was not introducing new consciousness to the world, rather he was a bridge between ancient Chinese knowledge and modern Western thinking. He served as a medium for transmission. It could be said his life is a classic example of the Dao treating us as straw dogs.

Yes, but worth expanding on. From the perspective of my personal cultivation, any comment that causes me to react with strong emotion is a valuable gift. It means something hidden within me has been touched; something I'm not conscious of is nearing the surface of my awareness. However, insight may not come until long after engaging in such exchanges as the cartoon depicts. This approach means dwelling on the boundary between believing and not believing my own reality. It implies neither excessive certainty or excessive doubt. It's something I'm learning to do, rather than my permanent dwelling place.