Geof Nanto

There’s plenty of discussion on this forum and elsewhere of contemporary neidan cultivation as knowable, systemised process – difficult for sure, but doable for those who dedicate themselves to it. And that’s all excellent as far as it goes – it makes it accessible and gives definite forms that can be described, discussed and practised – yet at its heart neidan is a mystery tradition. And no way can that be easily discussed. It can only be hinted at. In the posts below I want to present some such imagery that I find personally meaningful. For me, the Christian and other Western imagery in my posts that follow the initial Daoist ones serve to enrich and deepen the Daoist insights. (Please don’t add any comments until I’ve added some further posts below this one. In any case, I present the topic more as something for contemplation rather than discussion. Although I include intellectual commentary, it’s meant as a way to explore the spiritual depths of content that’s meant to be felt with the heart and to find parallels within one’s own inner experience. These concepts can only ever be soft-edged and fluid, not hard-edged and fixed, and will disappoint anyone who approaches them looking for intellectual understanding or clear practice guidelines.) Xuanpin from the Golden Elixir website: https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/ill_xuanpin.htm The xuanpin (a term derived from the Daodejing, verse 6) is an emblem of the conjunction of the male and female principles. "Mysterious" (xuan) refers to Heaven (Yang), and "Female" (pin) refers to Earth (Yin). The trigrams within the two circles are Li ☲ (Yang containing True Yin) and Kan ☵ (Yin containing True Yang). The text surrounding the picture says: (1) Top: "Chart of the Mysterious-Female". (2) Right and left of the picture: "Gather the solid [line] from the center in the position of Kan ☵ / Transmute by projection the innermost Yin in the palace of Li ☲." (Two verses from the Wuzhen pian, or Awakening to Reality.) (3) Bottom: "Valley of Empty Non-Being — Root of Heaven and Earth — Mystery and then again Mystery — Gate of All Wonders". (The last two phrases derive from the Daodejing, verse 1.)

Daoist Attainment Here is John Blofeld writing in general terms about his extensive experiences with meeting Taoist recluses in China during the first half of last century; a time when the ancient ways were still part of the living tradition: It would not have occurred to them to speak, even to one another, of having attained anything at all. If one asked them such questions as whether they felt they still had far to go before reaching the end of the Way, their answers might lead one to suppose them idle creatures, pleasantly touched with madness. They would be sure to burst out laughing and protest that they had not thought of going anywhere at all, or do something unconventional such as mooing like a cow or dancing a few steps to indicate the folly of the question. They loved to refer to themselves as idlers or wanderers 'loafing about the world' and their eyes would twinkle if they found someone gullible enough to take them seriously. As soon as one had an inkling of what cultivating the Way implies, it became easier to decide what lay behind their smiling disclaimers. The atmosphere in temples or hermitages where no real cultivation was taking place was very different; there, recluses stood on their dignity and one sometimes felt as though watching a charade. With men of true attainment, their sincerity could never be in doubt. Even if one knew too little of their language to be able to converse with them, their presence was sufficient to communicate feelings of tranquil joy and an incredible stillness. When one practised meditation in their company, results could be achieved of a very different order from those normally obtained. In their vicinity, sorrows and anxiety fell away and serenity spilled forth. Beyond this, there is a dramatic means of identifying those rare beings who have reached the very highest attainment. During a conversation with such a being on some serious subject, an opportunity may occur to look, without making one's intention obvious, straight into his eyes, or, in special circumstances, he may himself choose to confer a revelation (as, on one unforgettable occasion, happened to me). In either case, it is as though for an ecstatic moment a curtain has been twitched aside revealing unimaginable immensities; for the space of a single flash of thought, one shares the vastness of a sage's inner vision! The bliss is indescribable, but not to be endured for more than a fraction of a second, its intensity being too great to be borne by ordinary mortals. Either he, knowing what is occurring, will lower his eyes, or one must tear away one's own. The fruit of such a momentous encounter is of inestimable worth, for never again will one's conviction of the reality of the supreme apotheosis waver. (From John Blofeld, Taoism: the Road to Immortality.)

Suzanne – Leonard Cohen Another of Cohen's songs with masterful, multilayered lyrics. Plenty of powerful symbolism here for those who care to look. For me, I feel xuanpin in every verse in that the song evokes something of the magical ineffable feeling of divine connection, of transcendence, which lights up out of the timeless realm when the heart touches something it vitally needs for wholeness; in this case Suzanne and Jesus as feminine and masculine aspects of the Self. It’s rare that I like a cover of a Cohen song as much or more than the original, but this one comes close: Suzanne Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river You can hear the boats go by, you can spend the night beside her And you know that she's half-crazy but that's why you want to be there And she feeds you tea and oranges that come all the way from China And just when you mean to tell her that you have no love to give her Then she gets you on her wavelength And she lets the river answer that you've always been her lover And you want to travel with her, and you want to travel blind And then you know that she will trust you For you've touched her perfect body with your mind And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water And he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him He said all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them But he himself was broken, long before the sky would open Forsaken, almost human, he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone And you want to travel with him, and you want to travel blind And then you think maybe you'll trust him For he's touched your perfect body with his mind Now, Suzanne takes your hand and she leads you to the river She's wearing rags and feathers from Salvation Army counters And the sun pours down like honey on our lady of the harbor And she shows you where to look among the garbage and the flowers There are heroes in the seaweed, there are children in the morning They are leaning out for love and they will lean that way forever While Suzanne holds the mirror And you want to travel with her, and you want to travel blind And then you know that you can trust her For she's touched your perfect body with her mind ~ Leonard Cohen

Yes, weeks of rain recently! Even the frogs found it a bit much: I was flooded in for a week or so (as I imagine you were) but that’s not so unusual and it doesn’t worry me. Fortunately, the town where I do my shopping (about 50km away) wasn’t flooded. The levee there wasn’t topped, just, but smaller towns further down the Clarence River were inundated. But nothing like the terrible devastation they suffered a little further up north with unprecedented flooding. Here’s how the river at my place looks as of yesterday. It’s running fast, about half a metre higher than normal. Nothing like a couple of weeks ago when it was a raging torrent and where I’m standing to take the photo was almost 10 metres under water. (To give some dimensions to the photo, the river where shown is about 70 metres wide and you can see the water upstream to the first bend about 1km away.) There’s been several floods as high or higher than that during the 20 plus years I’ve lived here. But never before has there been triple flood peaks over a couple of weeks like happened this time. The riparian zone was saturated for so long I expected significant erosion and damage to the vegetation, but was very pleased to see how well it has survived. The native vegetation regeneration work I’ve done along my side of the river over the time I’ve been here is proving pleasingly resilient. It’s also now an amazing place to walk through, especially when it’s hot; it’s cool and shady with plenty of wildlife. The birds love it. And the river is great to swim in (when it’s not flooding 😊).

Yes, but please keep in mind that this is a worldwide forum. Autumn here in the southern hemisphere.

@awaken Thank you for the effort you are putting into trying to educate us about your practice. I appreciate your presence here and the perspective of Daoism you present. But please go slower with your posts. You are writing too much. I can only understand a fraction of what you write because I do not know Chinese and the English I get from Google Translate is problematic. The result is plenty of mutual misunderstanding. For example you write: Translation given: “I regret that spontaneous success here has become an accusation of others, and Zhou Tiangong, who has been deeply misunderstood, has become the mainstream of Dan Tao.” I took some time to try to understand what you are saying in just that one sentence, and consider this a better translation: “I regret that my comments about spontaneous gong on this forum have become an accusation to others [about the limitations of their own practice], and celestial circuit gong (周天功 zhoutian gong), which has been deeply misunderstood, has become the mainstream teaching of inner alchemy.” I have no problem accepting that because my own practice has originated spontaneously from qi flows within me. It’s not focused on microcosmic orbit (xiao zhoutian 小周天). However, I also uphold the validity and great importance of such practice. But you are certainly correct, it is central to the teaching of neidan here. Indeed, it is “widely considered the main practice performed in the first stage of the Nanzong (Southern Lineage) codification of Neidan and in other varieties of Neidan”. Anything you say against it will meet stiff opposition. For good reasons. This is basically an English language forum so you need to adapt to that, the same way I would need to adapt to a Chinese language forum. So please be patient with us and present your perspective more slowly and in smaller amounts. And most importantly, please put more effort into trying to understand what people on this forum are saying before writing your reply. Too often, your replies have shown no understanding of what was said. Hence, based on misunderstandings, you have been dismissive of people here who have extensive cultivation experience and have plenty of wisdom to offer. 真是令人非常遺憾。(That is very regrettable.)

Yeah, adding a song to focus the imagery is a great idea, but I like this one better from the Troggs. When it came out in 1966, I heard it as ‘Wow Thing’. Me, 12 years old then and loving the emerging sixties music scene. Listening to it again now for the first time in decades, I still hear it as ‘Wow Thing’.

Unfortunately, that’s my conclusion too for the reasons you concisely outline earlier in your post. I would very much like it if that wasn’t the case because Awaken is obviously a dedicated practitioner. For me personally, my heart wept when I saw how this discussion has devolved. I wish that wasn’t the case. But this forum has established behaviour protocols for good reasons and Awaken has clearly breached them. Because of her innate connection with aspects of the life-enhancing turmoil and elusive harmonies of Chinese Daoism as a living tradition, I’d dearly like it if she is given every chance to modify her abrasive and offensive manner. (I could say much more about the situation from an inner energies perspective but I don’t think it’s appropriate here.)

From Damo Mitchell's Facebook titled Common Errors in Practice: Yin and yang are used in so many different ways in Daoism you really need the full context to understand what is being referred to. In the above context yin obviously refers to something undesirable. In a different context yin may refer to something desirable. Here's a quotation from Damo's White Moon on the Mountain Peak:

OP deleted. Will re-post at a later date...maybe.

I assumed Google Translate would give everyone the same result. It seems that’s not the case. Or perhaps your attempt was just a blip in the system. I’d be interested to learn what translation other people get for this passage. Out of curiosity, I regularly translate Awaken’s Chinese posts. She is an experienced practitioner and has much knowledge. I find it valuable to learn the perspective of a Chinese practitioner well versed in Buddhism and Daoism. For straightforward sentences, Google Translate does surprising well. But once she includes technical terms relating to spiritual practice, the result is jumbled nonsense. However, as far as I’m concerned, Awaken has every right to post here in Chinese if she so chooses. But as I recently found out for myself when I tried conversing with her using Google Translate (beginning here) the result is far from satisfactory.

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@stirling I likewise used Google Translate on that post of Awaken's and got a much more coherent result:

Thank you for your courteous reply, Apech. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good way to conclude this discussion.

As I said, I’d prefer to leave off with what I’ve already written. That comment of Apech’s has plenty of background context from other discussion on this forum. My response was based on my overview of the whole situation, including other comments by Apech, and also my perspective on what spiritual practice entails. I stand by what I wrote. But I know from previous interactions with Apech we are on very different spiritual paths. Hence, what is right for each of us is different. I’m content with the path I’m on and I assume Apech is likewise content with his path. Of overriding importance for me is that I come here for connection and do not like it that I’ve stirred up conflict. Now that I have, I’m wanting to diffuse the situation but without surrendering my perspective. Mine is a path that resonates with Jung’s insights. With that in mind here is a Jungian overview of the fairytale in question. I’ll leave it open to everyone to interpret for themselves what it means in relation to Apech’s post. To my reading, Questionmark already has a strongly developed yang (masculine) side with her powerful intellect and needs support in valuing her innately strong yin (feminine) sensitivity to subtle energy flows that she revealed in her OAD topic and elsewhere. Rather than giving this support, I read Apech as trying to squash it. (My apologies, @questionmark and @Apech for giving this mini-analysis without your permission. I make no claims that it is right, only that I’m being honest about what I feel. I stand open to being corrected by both of you.) (Edit to add: This video gives the gist of the fairy tale and serves as a basic introduction to Jungian archetypal analysis. Even though the analysis lacks nuance, for a 7-minute introduction it serves its purpose well enough. For a more comprehensive exploration of archetypal analysis of fairy tales, I highly recommend Marie-Louise von Franz’s excellent books on the subject mentioned at the beginning of the video.)

Yes I realised that but I didn't find it funny. I'm okay though to leave it at what I've already written, understood or not.

@Apech What are you feeling confused about?

Yueya followed the progress of the intrepid hobbits using his scrying screen (powered by Windows 11) and was greatly amused by some of the comments. But not this one. Are you using your formidable intellect and narrative powers here to gain insight into hidden aspects of your own psyche? Or are you using them to shield your heart from the profound mysterious of the feminine? For me, allowing vulnerability is vital for feeling my way into an intimate relationship with Self. I have no interest in the type of isolated, masculine only, strength you seem to be implying.

Worth repeating. And obviously you hit a sore point with your reference to childish snickering.

The association with Drew Hempel, understandable as it is from the title of the topic, has unfortunately led to a mocking and dismissive discussion. No one has acknowledged the reality of what @questionmark is asking about. Rather than writing about my own personal experiences, I did a quick web search and found this article which may at least provoke the taking of this topic seriously.

The large tree in the foreground is one of my favourite tree species here. Locally, we call them Applebox trees but the botanical name is Angophora subvelutina. The photo is taken from near my house looking down my driveway. (The roof you can see on the left is my studio, located about 200 metres from my house.) Looking at this photo, you wouldn’t know that a little over two years ago there was not a green leaf in sight after the devastating forest fires of Nov 2019. All the landscape for tens of kilometres in all directions was charred black. On my whole property which covers 75 acres I lost many, many trees including several which I dearly valued near my house and studio. For instance, before the fire there were another three large Applebox trees that grew near the one in the photo. I love the way Applebox trees grow such twisty branches. They also produce prolific amounts of flowers in late spring / early summer. The bees go crazy harvesting their aromatic pollen. They get to grow old and large even in areas that are selectively logged because their twisty branches and crazily grained wood make them unsuitable for milling. They are the epitome of Zhuangzi's useless tree. Although I lament the destruction of flora and fauna caused by the fire, the landscape is recovering well with a lush understory of new growth. Sadly, the forest canopy is still sparse, as is what was once abundant native wildlife. But plenty of birds; birdsong all day.

I believe @Bindi has an out of control bushfire getting uncomfortably close to her campsite. (In real life.)

An informative book: The Emotions in Early Chinese Philosophy by Curie Virág In China, the debate over the moral status of emotions began around the fourth century BCE, when early philosophers first began to invoke psychological categories such as the mind (xin), human nature (xing), and emotions (qing) to explain the sources of ethical authority and the foundations of knowledge about the world. Although some thinkers during this period proposed that human emotions and desires were temporary physiological disturbances in the mind caused by the impact of things in the world, this was not the account that would eventually gain currency. The consensus among those thinkers who would come to be recognized as the foundational figures of the Confucian and Daoist philosophical traditions was that the emotions represented the underlying, dispositional constitution of a person, and that they embodied the patterned workings of the cosmos itself. Curie Virág sets out to explain why the emotions were such a central preoccupation among early thinkers, situating the entire debate within developments in conceptions of the self, the cosmos, and the political order. She shows that the mainstream account of emotions as patterned reality emerged as part of a major conceptual shift towards the recognition of natural reality as intelligible, orderly, and coherent. The mainstream account of emotions helped to summon the very idea of the human being as a universal category and to establish the cognitive and practical agency of human beings. This book, the first intensive study of the subject, traces the genealogy of these early Chinese philosophical conceptions and examines their crucial role in the formation of ethical, political and cultural values in China.

"The same desirous energy that ordinarily propels us from one unsatisfactory situation is transmuted, through the alchemy of tantra, into ...... [Great Mystery]. " ~ Yueya

I first learnt of his passing here, the day before it was announced on this forum. I didn’t feel sad though, rather, I felt a mild elation in that Thich Nhat Hanh was someone who seemingly fully accomplished all that life asked of him. And that’s a rare accomplishment. I first took notice of him many years ago when a friend sent me a poem of his that strongly resonated with me. It spoke to me of my own experiences of numinousity and dark trauma at different stages along the Way. To me, it’s a poem of inner alchemical transmutation of desire, spoken from the perspective of Buddha-Nature, of Self. But I’m no Buddhist, so I’m interested to learn how Buddhists might interpret it. I Want it All (Thich Nhat Hanh) If you ask how much do I want, I'll tell you that I want it all. This morning, you and I and all men are flowing into the marvellous stream of oneness. Small pieces of imagination as we are, we have come a long way to find ourselves and for ourselves, in the dark, the illusion of emancipation. This morning, my brother is back from his long adventure. He kneels before the altar, his eyes full of tears. His soul is longing for a shore to set anchor at (a yearning I once had). Let him kneel there and weep. Let him cry his heart out. Let him have his refuge there for a thousand years, enough to dry all his tears. One night, I will come and set fire to his shelter, the small cottage on the hill. My fire will destroy everything and remove his only life raft after a shipwreck. In the utmost anguish of his soul, the shell will break. The light of the burning hut will witness his glorious deliverance. I will wait for him beside the burning cottage. Tears will run down my cheeks. I will be there to contemplate his new being. And as I hold his hands in mine and ask him how much he wants, he will smile and say that he wants it all – just as I did.