Geof Nanto

From your response we seem to be approaching the topic from incompatible perspectives. Mine is underpinned by non-anthropocentric systems theory - and especially the social systems theory of Niklas Luhmann. My implication is that 'we' are all processes within the patterns of the Dao. Mine original comment actual negates any suggestion of any type of determinism. I agree about human arrogance and hubris. These are issues addressed at a fundamental level by radical sociologists such as Luhmann. This seems to entirely miss my point about the evolutionary interactions over time of hyper-complex systems, as expressed in my final paragraph above. It's correct, though, that I'm only addressing issues on our planet and that's obviously insignificant when taken in relationship to the whole universe. .

Human activity, like all processes, are a function of the Dao. (To use Daoist terminology.) Consequently there is no central planning that took us in this direction - just countless billions of human / environment interactions over time. Similarly, the future will continue to unfold as it will. We human like to think we have some capacity to centrally plan and control, but this is largely an illusion - as the climate change debate dramatically demonstrates. To my mind a better description than the anthropocene of our current epoch is the age of machines. Machines are a new form of 'life' that present new problems for our environment because environmental processes have not evolved around them. Although we like to think machines are our servants, really the reverse has more truth. Life now is more machine-like than ever. We live faster, 24/7 lives, totally divorced from natural rhythms such as the seasons and day and night. Sure, machines expand our capacities, but only in ways that machines are capable of. Basically, this epoch is a time of rapid change. Our planet has evolved hyper-complex systems of interactions over billions of years of gradual evolution. Machines present a massive challenge for integration into these living systems - perhaps as apocalyptic for existing life forms as the great oxidation event of around 2.3 billion years ago. We humans and machines and in the process of developing a complex symbiotic relationship in conjunction with all other environmental systems on our planet. Or at least, only those relationships that entail sufficient symbiosis to survive will survive long term. And who knows how that will look.

I checked out that link and agree with Denty's observations about Healing Tao. But his comments about Sherfu reveal the methods of a faith healer. Believe what you will. "What came out of me was about a half pint of what looked like roof tar. It was literally black and thick like a paste. Sherfu said that if I hadn't come to him, I would have been quite possibly hit with a stroke within the year." I know from personal experience that authentic Daoist based praxis is excellent for improving health and can even rid a person of many illnesses (Illness in the sense of qi imbalances). However, many of these 'guru' type Dao teachers go much too far with their claims. Some come to believe they have god-like powers and can cure anything. This is simply untrue. Sure, we all can learn - indeed, need to learn - from gifted teachers but remember at the end of the day the path lies within. But perhaps a person needs to experience devastating disillusionment before fully realising what this means.

To my understanding, it is the view of the majority of specialist Daoism research academics that the division of Daoism into Philosophical Daoism and Religious Daoism is a Western misinterpretation. (See for instance Livia Kohn, Daoism and Chinese Culture; and Louis Komjathy, The Daoist Tradition.) Certainly, no one denies there is a philosophical aspect to classical Daoism, or perhaps more correctly, there are aspects of classical Daoism that respond well to philosophical analysis. However, I don’t agree with these same academics when they negate the validity of Philosophical Daoism on traditional grounds. To my mind, Philosophical Daoism has now established itself as a new sub-tradition within the great and diverse Daoist community. Daoism’s ability to change and grow - and thereby embrace our very real contemporary needs - is an affirmation that it’s alive and well.

I personally don't find the Western concepts of 'philosophical Daoism', 'religious Daoism', 'theist', 'atheist', and 'agnostic' that frame this discussion as a particularly meaningful way to understand Daoism. (I'll leave gatito and ‘gnostic’ aside as I do find his use of the word meaningful, but beyond and outside of further discussion.) Rather, here is a brief and concise overview of Daoist cosmogony from Louis Komjathy’s The Daoist Tradition. Each to his or her own interpretation in terms of the above Western concepts if you so desire. (For those interested, I strongly recommend reading his whole book as an excellent starting point for understanding the diverse totality of the Daoist tradition. It will soon become apparent that there are no simple or unequivocal answers to questions such as those of this thread topic, because such questions only have significance from a world-view that’s familiar to us but foreign to Daoism.) Daoist cosmogony The primary Daoist cosmogony involves an impersonal and spontaneous process of manifestation and emanation. One dimension of the Dao manifests in and as the universe as cosmological process ("Nature"). Generally speaking, Daoists do not believe in intentionality, agency, or inherent and transcendent meaning in the cosmos. That is, in contrast to many monotheists, Daoists believe in neither a creator god nor "creation" as such. The foundational Daoist cosmogony involves a spontaneous transformation that led from primordial nondifferentiation to differentiation. There was a beginning. There was not yet beginning to be a beginning. There was not yet beginning to be not yet beginning to be a beginning. There was being. There was nonbeing. There was not yet beginning to be nonbeing. There was not yet beginning to be not yet beginning to be nonbeing. Suddenly there was nonbeing. But when it comes to nonbeing, I don't know what is being and what is nonbeing. Now I have just said something. But I don't know whether or not what I have said has really said something. (Zhuangzi, Chapter 2) The Dao represents primordial nondifferentiation or pure potentiality. In a pre-manifest "state," the Dao is an incomprehensible and unrepresentable "before," also understood as original qi, the primordial "energy" of the universe. Through a spontaneous, unintentional, and impersonal process of unfolding or differentiation, this nondifferentiation became the One or unity. That is, even unity or the wholeness of Being-before-being is not the Dao in its ultimate sense. The One represents the first moment or stage of differentiation. From this unity, separation occurs. In the next phase of differentiation, the one divides into two, yin and yang. Here yin also relates to terrestrial qi or the qi of the earth (diqi), while yang relates to celestial qi or the qi of the heavens (tianqi). At this moment yin and yang have not yet formed patterns of interaction. The interaction of yin and yang is referred to as "three," this moment involves yin and yang in dynamic and continual interaction, resulting in further differentiation. This further differentiation leads to the emergence of materiality as well as to more individuated beings and forces, including human beings. Human beings, as vertically aligned beings, are often seen as the life form with the clearest capacity to connect the heavens and the earth. This is a structural and organizational distinction, not an ontological or theological one. In the later Daoist tradition, the three dimensions of the heavens, earth, and human beings are referred as the "Three Powers" (sancai).

This is a particularly interesting train of thought you're posting here, gatito. But I'll write no more because, to my mind, you've brought the discussion to the edge of what can be expressed in words and ideas. To go further, a person would need to share the experience of these sages you know.

Some further thoughts on Idea-Traps and the Fishnet Allegory……. One of the biggest potential idea-traps is the powerful thought formations that the wisest people communicate to us. Their teachings are like a double edged sword – potentially both helpful and harmful. “The raft is not the shore.” “Thoughts are natural events that you do not possess, and whose whole meaning you only imperfectly recognise. Thoughts grow in me like a forest, populated by many different animals.” If thoughts were like rabbits…… Beyond words and ideas, no rabbits! The open ended evocativeness of the best poetry; like rabbits living free in the wilderness. The allegories of the Zhuangzi in its original archaic Chinese; like healthy rabbits free ranging within a large enclosed field. Translations into English; like rabbits caught in a snare – they are still alive but their freedom is restricted by whatever length of the snare wire the translator has allowed. And explicit commentary on the Zhuangzi; like killed, skinned and cooked rabbits served up on a dish. Skilled chefs can create awesome meals – but obviously tastes vary. Zen - If you meet a rabbit on the road, kill it and discard it; look beyond form and emptiness. Zhuang Zhou – If you meet a rabbit whilst roaming the countryside, eat it for nourishment if hungry; when satisfied, forget rabbits. Me – rabbits and fish taste good, but not as good as they used to; almost satisfied???? (The choice to move beyond words and ideas is more difficult than ever now we've made the fishnet into the world-wide-web. www: another double-edged sword - great source of knowledge; great potential trap for Daoist practitioners.)

Although that introductory section by Thomas Cleary from Immortal Sisters raises significant issues, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Just keep it in mind as one perspective, albeit a perspective from a learned researcher. I've lived in Zen centres and I know what he is referring to, but his warnings are more for long-term intensive practitioners and devotees. For beginners and even experienced people, Zen groups are an excellent places to experience meditation and mix with other meditators. Also I don't think breath awareness directed to any part of the body will be harmful for beginners because their focus and qi is too scattered to build any real power. Personally, I suggest just quiet sitting with focus on the natural breath wherever you feel it. I good traditional way to keep focus is to count backwards from 99 and when you catch yourself drifting off into other thoughts just come back to counting breaths from 99 down again. Keep it light and easy I say. Don't clutter yourself up with do’s and don’ts. Find your own way and trust your own judgement as to what works best for you. There’s other advice here like from Ya Mu (above) saying much the same thing about keeping it simple and just regularly practice. Also teachers like Astraic obviously have good experience to share based on brain wave theory – theory I know nothing about. I’m more a traditionalist and like the words of the classic Daoist texts. But that’s just me. He is obviously getting good results. Here is some basic background information on traditional meditation that I imagine you already know, but may like it as a concise overview. (I've only included detail on apophatic meditation because to my mind that’s where everyone should start.) Meditation (from The Daoist Tradition by Louis Komjathy) Generally speaking, "meditation" involves seated postures aimed at developing some capacity, clarifying meaning and purpose, and/or deepening one's connection to the sacred. Although meditation is often associated with seated postures and assumed to be synonymous with Buddhist meditation, there are types of meditation practice that utilize standing, walking, and supine postures. Considered from a comparative perspective, "meditation" is an umbrella category that includes various types of associated practices, including alchemy, concentration, devotion, intentional respiration (breath-centered), mindfulness, relaxation, visualization, and so forth. The goals of meditation are also diverse, and they are usually tradition-specific. These may include the attainment of higher levels of consciousness or numinous abilities; the development of attentiveness, wisdom, compassion, or some other capacity or quality; divinization (making oneself into a god) or rarification (making oneself more refined); and so forth. Daoist Meditation Daoist meditation, most generally referred to in Chinese as dazuo (lit., "to engage in sitting"), is among the most diverse in terms of technique and orientation. Five major Types of Daoist meditation may be identified: apophatic or quietistic meditation, which relates to a variety of Daoist technical terms; visualization (cunxiang); ingestion (fuqi); inner observation (neiguan); and internal alchemy (neidan). Daoists also developed a specific type of practice for women, known as "female alchemy" (nudan), which was first systematized during the late imperial period. Apophatic meditation Daoist apophatic or quietistic meditation is first attested to in classical Daoist texts, where it receives various technical names. These include "embracing the One" (baoyi) "guarding the One" (shouyi), "fasting of the heart-mind" (xinzhai), "sitting-in-forgetfulness", (zuowang), and so forth. In contemporary Daoism, where the practice usually incorporates internal alchemy dimensions, it is usually called "quiet sitting" (jingzuo), also translated as "tranquil sitting,” "stillness meditation,” or "sitting-in-stillness." Apophatic meditation emphasizes emptiness and stillness; it is contentless, non-conceptual, and non-dualistic. One simply empties the heart-mind of all emotional and intellectual content. Classical descriptions of Daoist apophatic meditation appear in many Daoist texts. These works provide instructions and guidelines for the practice. According to the Daodejing: "Empty the heart-mind and fill the belly. Weaken the will and strengthen the bones" (Chapter 3; also Chapter 12). See also chapters 10, 16 and 20. Similarly, the fourth-century BCE " Neiye" (Inward Training) chapter of the Guanzi (Book of Master Guan) explains: "The Dao is without a set place, but the calmness of an adept heart-mind makes a place. When the heart-mind is still and qi is patterned, the Dao may then come to rest ... Cultivate the heart-mind and still your thinking; the Dao may then be realized" (Chapter 5; also Chapters 14, 17, 19, and 25). This text also provides more specific guidelines. If you can be aligned and still, Only then can you become stable. With a stabilized heart-mind at the Center, With the ears and eyes acute and bright, And with the four limbs firm and fixed, You can make a lodging-place for vital essence. ("Neiye,” ch. 8) Expand your heart-mind and release it. Relax your qi and allow it to extend. When your body is calm and unmoving, Guard the One and discard myriad disturbances. You will see profit and not be enticed by it. You will see harm and not be frightened by it. Relaxed and unwound, and yet free from selfishness, In solitude you will find joy in your own being. This is what we call "circulating qi.” Your awareness and practice appear celestial. (ibid., Chapter 24)

Wow Marblehead, in your attempt at closure you opened another can of worms as to what this means. Definitions of 'discriminate' from the Oxford dictionary..... 1 Recognize a distinction; differentiate: babies can discriminate between different facial expressions 1.1 Perceive or constitute the difference in or between: features that discriminate this species from other gastropods 2 Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women ​I'd suggest it's in this second sense of prejudice that Daoists don't discriminate. However I could also argue that Daoist's aim to move completely beyond words and ideas (and hence any form of differentiation as ordinarily perceived) - but that's a discussion we've had elsewhere. (It also negates this entire website.) Otherwise I think wise discrimination (as in differentiation) is a goal to be aimed for.

Yeah, who is not guilty on some level. Here are some thoughts on how to moderate it...... “The problem with people is that they feel the views of others alone may be doubted, not their own.” From Learning to Be a Sage: Selections from the "Conversations of Master Chu," (Zhu Xi or Chu Hsi (Chinese: 朱熹, October 18, 1130 – April 23, 1200) was a Song dynasty Confucian scholar who was the leading figure of the School of Principle and the most influential rationalist Neo-Confucian in China.) And some deliberately ambiguous words from Carl Jung on the frail smugness of unquestioning belief...... "People who believe and don't think always forget that they continually expose themselves to their own worst enemy: doubt. Wherever belief reigns, doubt lurks in the background. But thinking people welcome doubt: it serves them as a valuable stepping-stone to better knowledge. People who can believe should be a little more tolerant with those of their fellows who are only capable of thinking. Belief has already conquered the summit which thinking tries to win by toilsome climbing. The believer ought not to project his habitual enemy, doubt, upon the thinker, thereby suspecting him of destructive designs...let the believer rejoice that others, too, seek to climb the mountain on whose peak he sits." And from Leonard Cohen....... "Roshi said something nice to me one time," he stated. "He said that the older you get, the lonelier you become, and the deeper the love you need. Which means that this hero that you're trying to maintain as the central figure in the drama of your life—this hero is not enjoying the life of a hero. You're exerting a tremendous maintenance to keep this heroic stance available to you, and the hero is suffering defeat after defeat. And they're not heroic defeats; they're ignoble defeats. Finally, one day you say, 'Let him die—I can't invest any more in this heroic position.”

Further to my last comment...... I have much respect for the best engaged theists of all traditions. A couple of deep thinkers who immediately come to mind are Carl Jung and William James. Though written over a century ago James' The Varieties of Religious Experience is still a classic for its overview of the theist's position. And Jung's Memories, Dreams, Reflections recounts his personal encounters with the God-image. As to engaged atheists, Richard Dawkins is obviously a deep thinker, as are many others. However, from my own perspective, I relate more to the position of the wiser amongst the theists, but also learn from the best atheists.

In defense of Dustybeijing he was describing caricatures. From his comment I understood he was saying that the caricature of an agnostic is of someone who uses the label as an escape from engagement with the issue - in other word mentally lazy, apathetic.What you're describing is very much an engaged agnostic.

We’re cultivating very different gardens – each appropriate to our own situation, I assume. I live on a large acreage in a semi-wilderness area. My approach is large-scale removal of invasive woody weeds in degraded habitats so that the natural ecology can restore itself. Hard work to start with but once the previous harmony of the landscape is restored it means virtually no maintenance at all. A great diversity of flora and fauna returns, and the ecology maintains itself self-so by countless natural processes such as self-seeding and enhanced immunity to invasive species.

Totally agreed, Stosh. I'm very familiar with the limitations of permaculture through personal experience, and also of the advantages of philosophical disputes. I'm critical of some of the inferences of classical Daoism as well as of permaculture and all questions of sustainability - to me it can be akin to stagnation. This opens up a whole new discussion though, but it will take me a while to compose my thoughts. Also it's getting way off topic isn't it? Very interesting for me though.

Yes that's certainly a start. One of my near neighbours uses cell grazing on their cattle property to good effect. Permaculture is a branch of ecological design, ecological engineering, environmental design, construction and integrated water resources management that develops sustainable architecture, regenerative and self-maintained habitat and agricultural systems modeled from natural ecosystems. The term permaculture (as a systematic method) was first coined by Australians Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in 1978. The word permaculture originally referred to "permanent agriculture" but was expanded to stand also for "permanent culture," as it was seen that social aspects were integral to a truly sustainable system as inspired by Masanobu Fukuoka's natural farming philosophy. Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted and thoughtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless labor; and of looking at plants and animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single product system. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

I would also add that, as a new contributor to this community, I'm totally impressed by the way this discussion worked through very real and valid disharmony to a position of relative harmony. I'm particularly impressed with Marblehead - he was the first person here to engage with my comments and in that way made me feel welcome. However, as well as feeling friendship over his openness, I confess to feeling a tad afraid of him too. Well, not of him personally, but of the intimidating power of his certainties - certainties that for me are only his opinions. I particularly rally against his believe in human rationality. To me he is almost deifying what is merely one method of making sense of the world. It's a fallible human facility. To be totally rational a person would need to know everything about the meaning of life and the universe as a whole. Without this knowledge rational thought can only ever be partial. Also a person would need to totally rid him or herself of subjective prejudices and achieve absolute objectivity - a position perhaps akin to enlightenment. Or perhaps not even a possibility for any human. I write this as a friend - one whose particularly impressed that he's also able to be more accommodating. (Otherwise I'd never write this.)

“By subdividing subtle statements philosophers teach people to increase matters of doubt: they start us off extending and varying our difficulties, stretching them out and spreading them about. By sowing doubts and then pruning them back they make the world produce abundant crops of uncertainties and quarrels, just as the soil is made more fertile when it is broken up and dug deep: ‘It is learning that creates the difficulty.’” (Modified paragraph from Montaigne‘s, ‘On Experience’ with the word ‘philosophers’ substituted for his ‘lawyers‘, quoted from Ben-Ami Scharfstein, ‘A Comparative History of World Philosophy‘.) I would add - ‘it is learning that creates and needs the difficulty.’ I’d also add that to my mind Daoism favours the natural soil enhancement methods of permaculture over digging deep and breaking up.

Here is some detailed information on Daoist meditation I've found helpful - obviously not directed at you Rara, but the introduction explains dantians and my reference to Rinzai as a Japanese military-like affectation. Taoist Meditation for Women - Introduction This short treatise on Taoist meditation for women was written for one Cao Zhenjie, a married woman described as "more learned and knowledgeable than men," in the year 1899. The distinction made between men and women in ordinary Taoist practice is part of the science of life and has to do with the physiological difference between the sexes. As seen in the work of Sun Bu-er, the feminine Tao of life includes the practice of deliberate and harmonious menopause as part of mastery over the physical body. In the present treatise, it will be seen that the primary distinction made is in the location of the attention when generating psychosomatic energy to circulate through the body. Men ordinarily use the lower abdomen, but this is proscribed for women, who are to use the sternum instead. The inner circulation of psychosomatic energy is commonly used for health and well-being, but misapplication of the collection procedure is universally held to be harmful. Those familiar with present-day Zen cults of Japanese origin will immediately notice in the following text the distinction made between Taoist practice for females and males in terms of the location of the attention in beginning sitting meditation. One of the unfortunate results of the uncritical importation of deteriorated forms of Japanese Zen Buddhism into Western countries, where a relatively large number of women attempt to practice Zen, is that many women have been taught to sit with the attention in the lower abdomen, a method Taoists claim is harmful to females. It is in fact nearly impossible to find any indication of this practice in authentic traditional Chan or Zen texts of China or Japan. It was popularized by the famous eighteenth-century Zen teacher Hakuin, but as part of a therapeutic regimen, as it had been in the comprehensive Chinese school of Tiantai Buddhism from which Chan partly derived. There is no evidence, furthermore, of Hakuin having taught any of his many female students to keep their attention in the abdomen as a regular practice, but many later Zen teachers seem to have made it a standard procedure for everyone regardless of other conditions. Perhaps this distortion was fostered by the popularity of Zen among males of the samurai caste, and later by association of Zen with martial arts, in which the focus of attention in the lower abdomen has a special function. In martial arts, of course, the motion of the practitioner has the effect of rapidly redistributing the accumulation of energy and thus offsetting the attendant dangers of this technique. According to the Taoist science of life, focus of attention on any part of the body involves potential danger and should not be done too long or too intensely. Specific dangers accompany attention on the lower abdomen in females, and attention on points in the head in both females and males. In Japan, the deterioration of the original system of which concentration on certain physical locations forms a part is evidenced in the use of the term tanden ("elixir field") exclusively for the lower abdomen. The original Taoist system defines three elixir fields, not just one; the lower abdomen is but one of these, called in Taoism the lower elixir field. Again, it might be theorized that the fragmentation and oversimplification of this system in Japan might have been due to centuries of dominance of male military associations with Zen. The present treatise on spiritual alchemy for women also makes it clear that this type of exercise is done only in the beginning of practice, until a certain effect is realized. Here again Zen cults of Japanese derivation that have people repeat the same exercise—particularly the exercises of placing the attention in the abdomen or on the breath—over and over again for years on end present clear evidence of stultifying deterioration. The etiology and specific symptoms of the deleterious effects of such practices among modern devotees of Zen or Taoist sitting and similar disciplines are not necessarily self-evident to either prescribers or practitioners, because of the very limitations of the systems that prescribe these practices indiscriminately. In view of this, and in consideration of the benefits of less obsessive and more technically well-informed procedures, this text on feminine Taoist practice may be considered of special importance for the many women of today who are attempting to use interior meditation methods to enhance consciousness and life. SPIRITUAL ALCHEMY FOR WOMEN In the science of essence and life, men and women are the same - there is no discrimination. In sum, what is important is perfect sincerity and profound singlemindedness. An ancient document says, "Only perfect sincerity in the world is capable of ruling." A classic says, "The perfection of singlemindedness is that whereby one may heed the order of life." In general, what is most essential at the beginning of this study is self-refinement. Self-refinement is a matter of mind and breathing resting on each other. This means that the mind rests on the breathing and the breathing rests on the mind. What is most important in this is harmony. Harmony is in balance, balance is in harmony. Are they one or two? The union of balance and harmony is called the go-between. With the harmonious attunement of the go-between, there is natural mutual love between mind and breathing; there is mutual attraction, mutual inspiration, mutual expiration. Continuing uninterrupted, do not forget, yet do not force. Lao-tzu said, "The singleminded energy is most supple, able to be like an infant." This is the perfection of true harmony. The Master of the Jade Moon, a spiritual alchemist, said, "When husband and wife meet in old age, their feelings are naturally affectionate." A classic says, "Tie them into one whole, mix them in one place, make them into one piece, force them in one furnace." The same classic also says, "Cow and bull go along with each other, sun and moon are in the same place; positive and negative charges merge, metal and fire commingle." The reality behind all of these sayings is spirit and energy being together, which means mind and breathing being together. Spirit is essence, energy is life. This is what is meant by the classic saying, "The root of essence is rooted in mind; the stem of life stems from breathing." It is necessary to know that creative evolution only takes place when spirit and energy are joined into one. The joining of the two into one is the reversion of the two modes—yin and yang—back into one totality. This is called the twin cultivation of essence and life. The twin cultivation of essence and life is a matter of keeping the mind and breathing together, not letting them separate even for a moment. Therefore an ancient alchemist said that "firing the medicine to produce the elixir" means driving energy by spirit, thereby attaining the Tao. In daily practice it is essential to embrace the breathing steadily with the mind and embrace the mind steadily with the breathing. When you have done this for a time, once you reach even balance you naturally become very stable and concentrated. You plunge into a profound trance where there is no sky and no earth, where you forget about everything, including your own body. This stage is the experience referred to by the classic saying, "Knowing the white, keep the black, and illumination of spirit will come of itself." You seem to feel body and mind revitalized and supple, with unusual buoyancy and wellbeing. One alchemist said that in this state you are like someone without the power of speech eating honey, unable to tell of its sweetness. Another alchemist said, "Almost imperceptible, the first transformation of yin and yang—heaven and earth, full of living energy, suddenly revolve. Therein is a bit of fine scenery—how can this work be put into words?" This time is what is known as "the one primordial energy coming from the void of space." As one alchemist said, "The winter solstice is midnight, where you find the celestial mind has no change, where creative energy first stirs, before myriad things are born." This is what is referred to in alchemical texts as Living Midnight. One alchemist said of this, "Gather energy quickly when winter comes." Another said, "Gathering means gathering without trying to gather, which means splitting open the primordial indefinite." This "splitting open the primordial indefinite" refers to the time of ultimate emptiness and perfect quietude. To empty oneself to the ultimate extent and preserve quietude to perfection is known as returning to Earth, the spiritually receptive mode. Earth the receptive is associated with the southwest: It is known as "the region where the medicine is produced," "the land of primordial nondifferentiation," and "the opening of the Mysterious Female. " An alchemist called Seeker of the Fundamental said, "If you want to look for the primordial seed of realization, you must seek out undifferentiated wholeness to set up the foundation." Understanding Reality, the classic of spiritual alchemy, says, "If you want to attain the immortality of the open spirit, you must set the foundation on the Mysterious Female. Once the foundation is set up, the open spirit does not die. Then how can the person die?" The aforementioned self-refinement, setting up the foundation, and gathering the great primal medicine, are all the same for men and women. Therefore it is said, "The great Way does not make a distinction between men and women; yin and yang, in their various combinations, are all the same." After this I'll talk more about temporal difference. In his Secret of Feminine Alchemy, Liu I-ming says, "There is a true secret about starting practice. The operation is as different for men and women as sky from sea. The principle for men is refinement of energy, the expedient for women is refinement of the body. " Men begin practice with the attention in the lower abdomen, just below the navel. Women start work with the attention between the breasts. Immortal Sister Zhang, one of the great Taoist women, was initiated long ago by Lu Yan, one of the ancestors of spiritual alchemy. Lu told her, "After midnight and before noon, settle the breathing and sit. As the energy passes through the midspine and on through the brain, gaining the power of energy, contemplate the self." Lu also said, "You must find the ancestor of your own house. Thunder in the earth rumbles, setting in motion rain on the mountain. Wait until washing, and the yellow sprouts emerge from earth. Grab the golden essence of vitality and lock it up tightly. Fire metal and wood to produce the dragon and tiger." In general, it is necessary to refine oneself thoroughly before one will have autonomy. Also one must take the positive energy of heaven and earth day after day, and concentrate to clear the mind hour after hour, before the effects of the practice will be experienced. It may take one or two months, or perhaps three or four months. The length of time depends only on the depth of one's work. While carrying out the work it may happen that women feel there is energy in the opening between the breasts that thrusts out, divides and goes into the breasts, right through to the nipples, which then erect. This is what alchemical classics call the living midnight when the medicine is produced. One alchemist said, "Suddenly at midnight there is a peal of thunder, and ten thousand doors, a thousand gates, open one after another. If you perceive that there is form within nothingness, I will admit you have seen the original human being in person." When the work reaches this point, the hundred energy channels in the body are in harmony, while their critical apertures, the passes where energy can accumulate, are all opened. In truth, each pulse fills the chest, all is spring. Now to explain Lu Yan's initiatory statements to Immortal Sister Zhang. "After midnight and before noon" refers to the fact that the midnight hour is best for finding reality. People who practice quiet sitting usually do it late at night or early in the morning. To "settle the breathing" means to tune the breath so that it is even. In "sitting," two people sit with unified attention placed between them. With mutual concentration, pure attention is embraced. With pure attention in the center, a unified energy flows, thus pressing tightly on the midspine, and going on through the brain. This is what is referred to as the reversal of the Yellow River, meaning the opening of the spinal energy channel. "Gaining energy, contemplate the self." The "self" here is a metaphor for pure positive energy, and the self has been refined into an incorruptible immortal of absolute unity. This is what alchemical classics refer to as absolute unity containing true energy. "Find the ancestor of your own house" means seeking out the very beginning of the living body receiving energy, finding the primordial point of original generative energy. "Thunder in the earth rumbles, setting in motion rain on the mountain." This is the same as the saying, "The white clouds pay court to the palace on high, ambrosia pours on the polar mountain." "Wait until washing, and the yellow sprouts emerge from earth." Waiting means waiting for the right time, washing means washing the mind and refining oneself. This is what is meant by the alchemical term "perfumed steaming." As for "yellow sprouts," yellow is the color of earth, sprouts are the life potential. Emerging from earth means that the experience is like when myriad things grow in spring, and the whole earth is renewed. At this time the positive energy goes all the way to heaven, in the form of a fiercely blazing fire, resembling flaming wind. Quickly gather it up and send it into the central chamber, in the center of the torso. This is why Lu Yan said, "Grab the golden essence and lock it up tightly." Another alchemist said, "Hold the golden essence fast, draw it carefully on, send it into the field of elixir." As for "Fire metal and wood to produce the dragon and tiger," this refers to the perfection of the sense and essence of consciousness, the first sprouting of the Tao. To sum up, it is just a matter of having people draw their attention to the inner sense of the real mind, carrying the work through the natural cycle. The dragon and tiger mean the ascent and descent of bipolar energy. If you work diligently, as one alchemist said, "When that one point of energy returns of itself and sinks into the body, it turns into year-round spring. A bit of white cloud brings a waft of fragrance; each time the rain passes, all is refreshed. Unconscious like a drunkard all day long, free and at ease, just keep 'the spring within the hollow.' When the essence of negativity throughout the body has been stripped away, it turns into a mass of pure positive gold." The work after this is the same for women as for men. Overall, in the secrets of the spiritual alchemy for women, these words alone should be the quickest route, Lu Yan did not hoard his celestial treasure, but divulged it all at once. It is a pity that people do not recognize it. Yet it should be realized that expressions such as "below the navel" and "between the breasts" are both representational. Do not look for them as having physical form. A classic says, "Clinging to this body is not the Way. Shunning this body is also wrong." It is also said, "The whole body, inside and out, is all dark." It is also said, "Looking right before your eyes, you don't recognize the real, much less what is important therein." The developmental process is subtle and necessitates personal transmission and mental reception from a true teacher. Only when you have understood it do you have a place to start. An alchemist said, "How can the personal transmission be explained on paper? Do not mislead yourself by blind guesswork." (From Immortal Sisters by Thomas Cleary pp 91-99)

Meditation practices - so many different views. Based on my own experience........... I like sitting meditation and because I like it I don't persist with anything I find too uncomfortable. For me Daoism is about cultivation in tune with nature, not forcing or repressing. I like to sit just before dawn and into the morning gloaming. That's when the stillness of the natural world feels most supportive. I almost never sit during the day; when the sun shines I like to be outside - it feels forced to sit still. Many teachers consider no movement a goal - I do not. From a Daoist perspective, I like harmonious qi flow in the body - so if I feel any numbness starting I always move sufficiently to counter it. Also I don't go along with teachings that specify breath awareness confined to any one part of the body. Sure, Daoists identify three dantians; lower dantian (just below the naval), middle dantian (at the level of the heart), and upper dantian (at the forehead between the eyebrows or third eye), and these are significant centres but persistent breath awareness in any one can be detrimental. Once again no forcing. For me wu wei and ziran are important principles in mediation as well as life in general. I say experiment and find your own approach that you feel brings results. But, of course, I'm saying this after many years living in Buddhist centres, and trying many different approaches. In other words I've had much education in technique and theory, and hope I always stay open to wise counsel. As far as the stick hitting of Rinzai goes, to me that's just a Japanese military-like affectation.

The Dao is ultimately mysterious and unknowable. Even Richard Dawkins, the high priest of atheism, doesn’t rule out the possibility that there could be far more intelligent entities than us humans in the universe - and they would seem like gods to us. However his distinction is that they would have evolved over long periods of time, not been created. He says our human view of 'reality' is so tiny we can't claim certainty about these things. But he says that whatever the truth is found to be, it will definitely not be the version found in the bible. Based on my own experience, I believe such entities exist - however it is not an argument I wish to pursue with anybody. It is a personal declaration of belief.

Yes, anyone who called themselves a Philosophical Daoist without caveats would be akin to a religious fundamentalist - he or she would be deifying Daoist texts.

I like aspects of all the above comments but, out of interest, what are the principles of Daoism we all agree on? Obviously there's Dao, De, Wu wei, ziran, implying themes such as naturalness, spontaneity, simplicity, and detachment from desires. These are derived primarily from the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi. Any others? But the principles of Daoism as an embodied tradition are anything but simple. And the way "thinker" has framed his question actually negates more complete answers - answers that are far too complex to address here. I'd suggest reading Louis Komjathy's The Daoist Tradition for the excellent overview he gives on the totality of Daoism.

What it was like has so many different facets that it’s difficult to convey anything meaningful without writing a long narrative. And although it’s within the general scope of this ‘to those seeking enlightenment’ topic, it’s outside of how Aaron set it up, so I’ll confine myself to a few paragraphs. For a number of years before I went there I’d been living an inner city life within a large metropolis. I’d also been practicing traditional yoga as well as meditation at a nearby suburban ashram for a few years. I liked the gentle yoga style, and the goal of arousing kundalini appealed to me, but I didn’t relate to the swamis. It had been a couple of years since the end of my days of heavy partying, drugs, alcohol etc and I was exploring new ways of living – or perhaps more correctly, desperately seeking meaning. When I found a forest Buddhist monastery located well out of town I loved it. It felt so peaceful, like a world outside of time. I packed up my possessions and moved there almost immediately. It was as if I was compelled. I liked getting up before first light and walking under starlight on a trail amongst the trees to the meditation hall. The hall itself was beautifully crafted of wood and had accumulated some considerable power. The sound of the bell, the chanting, the quiet sitting, the message of the dharma – It all felt like coming home. I felt on firm ground there such as I’d never felt in school, university, business etc - indeed in society in general. There, for the first time in my life, I was living within a structure that felt supportive and meaningful. And within a community of fellow seekers. The daily schedule outside of intensive meditation periods was reasonably laidback – early morning mediation, breakfast, communal meeting to discuss work for the day, work period until midday (jobs such as cooking, staffing the office, maintenance etc), communal midday meal (the main meal of the day), afternoon free, evening chanting followed by meditation and sometimes a dharma talk if the abbot felt like it (no discussion), private meditation or whatever until sleep. I liked to go to bed very early and get up well before anyone else because I loved the early morning stillness in the meditation hall. It was my favourite period of the day. However, as the months went by and I settled into the community, I found that all was not as harmonious as it initially seemed. And here I could go into a whole list of problems I’ve since learnt are common, to a greater or lesser degree, to these types of places. (Or at least they were in those days – I’m out of touch now.) Dogma, ‘spiritual’ egos, power politics, Asian cultural baggage, hierarchical and often patriarchal structures, no avenues to work through emotions because such needs were considered to be beneath monastics, are but a few of the shortcoming that come to mind. And in those days I was far more ready to perceive faults in others than in myself. My memory is vague but I think I stayed about a year before leaving to explore Buddhist centres in other countries. And from there I eventually came into Daoist based praxis via a gifted teacher – but that’s another story altogether.

Yes, I can feel this 'collapse' whenever I try to express ideas, like when I post here. Makes commenting here an interesting exercise in self understanding. I can easily trap myself in my own ideas. As to what Laozi was getting at - that's for us all to ponder. No interpretation can claim to be definitive. His language avoids any singularity.

When I first took residence in a Western Buddhist monastery as a young and desperate seeker, the nature of enlightenment was at the forefront of my mind. I remember thinking that the possession of knowledge that would make a person seem exceptional in the Buddha’s day would surely be considered common place now. I had in mind the body of knowledge that we humans have systematically gathered over the centuries. How could the Buddha know all this? It seemed inconceivable to me. I remember asking a Buddhism scholar in residence and he told me the scriptures stated that the Buddha was perfectly enlightened, and for him that meant enlightened in every way. I was left feeling baffled. Now, whilst I can’t speak on the nature of enlightenment, I can speak of what it is not. Enlightenment has nothing to do with conscious knowledge, facts etc. For this realm of understanding there is no better place to look than our sciences and academies of learning in general. Here there is a proven system of building truth that has involved, and continues to involve, a multitude of individual minds pursuing and publishing specialist research. The result is an ever evolving body of knowledge – it is the best we have as humans. Enlightenment has nothing to do with that realm. Whilst not making any claim to what enlightenment is, I now know enough to state with confidence that it is a different way of being in the world, not an expanded knowledge of the world of facts. It is not something that can be spoken of, only hinted at in ambiguous words and cryptic passages like, for instance, in the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi. For me that’s what the saying “He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know” is primarily referring to. (But its beauty lies in its very ambiguity - it allows many different interpretations.)