Jonesboy

Hi Apech, If we are talking the Master and the student as you have described think about like this. A=Master B = Student A has realized that they are that field which is all things to one degree or another. B has not had the same realization, realized that state of being. A, knowing that he is not this form but really that light that essence as described above can become one with anything or anyone. B, with the help of the master can merge with a Divine being or merge with the master. Such merging is a very powerful means of removing obstructions that block our clarity of having such a realization. Because it is so powerful the student progresses quickly along the path. So as the student progress, lets go of more and more junk he realizes that his nature is the same as the master or the deity. It is really much like Guru Rinpoche describes: Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity? The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential. Instead of thinking of a yidam as mantra and visualization. Think more those Divine beings are real and any such connection or merging is a powerful thing. Of course that also depends on how open the student is and there relative depth and clarity. This is also very intuitive. 2. A + B somehow superimpose and attenuate to the max degree possible their 'skins'. Think of A and B being two circles. Think of A as a bigger circle and B as a smaller circle. The size as representive of ones clarity or depth of realization. When you merge A and B, B would fit inside of A is how we would normally think of this. Yet when one merges what is happening is A is filling in all of B. It is an expanding outwards of B. So it is very much like you said to the max degree possible their skins. The merging is actually with the support of the master or the deity helping you to expand what you thought was your max. Or said a different way. Through the merging one experiences silence and energy flowing in them, as them or around them. That energy hits upon obstructions like any other energy practice. The silence from merging with such a being allows for the ease of letting go of issues. Because one is also being taken deeper or to higher levels of being with such a merge the process is very effective.

Sure to me the realization of the light at the level we talking of is Universal Mind. In KS that one would be One like Siva. A Buddha is one that has realized the emptiness of Universal Consciousness or more poorly said has realized that which is beyond the light. Or for a Buddha one could say the light is infinite potential. Or to drive everyone crazy, a little Jesus quote 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'" That place is the Dao or emptiness.

Which is why a true realization can share it Such re-memory is an indication of a taste and not a being. If one still has different states of being.. one has not arrived but still on the path.

With that I think we would start to debate over some Hindu stuff in the Buddhist section. Thanks for the great conversation

Okay, Feeling energy and being that energy/light are two different things. One is felt, the other is realized. A huge difference and one I think we can both agree on.

Essence is the light. If you can show me any texts that states it is otherwise I would love to see it. Emptiness is beyond the light, not some other essence. It is a very interesting concept that there is more beyond a Buddha, of some essence that a Buddha hasn't realized. The guru is the light, has realized the light. When the student connects to the guru the light flows through. The light does the work not the guru. For the guru he is just being, not doing. It is not like reiki or of the ego where you see an obstruction and work on removing it. You let the light do the work. Otherwise it is of ego. Maybe that is what you are getting at.. I would agree then that it is the light that does the work, not the ego or what the guru thinks should be worked on. But first you have to find a guru that has had such a realization.

I wouldn't agree that the essence is using the form of the guru. The guru is the essence and it is first through him/her that one first touches the light/essence and then later realizes it for themselves. The guru is more than a conduit. Nobody is putting a limit on anything. The only limit is yourself. How open you can be, how much can you trust and let go. That is always what holds us back. All I am saying is one can be helped greatly if one is open enough. Can be helped to move beyond all that stuff that apparently holds us back from such realizations Anyways, the things I am talking about don't seem to be practiced in Buddhism or again from my understanding possible. Which was the intent of my questions.

Hi 3bob, I don't think you get what I am saying. In no way am I talking about some lovie dovie emotional stuff. That is silly. A True Guru is one that has realized that essence to a degree that it can be shared. That sharing of oneness of grace is best stated like this. He is the Guru who goes on giving knowledge with facility, without strenuous practice and the like, as one moves from island to island. Difficult to obtain is the Guru whose mere instruction gives rise to knowledge, even as food gives instant contentment to the hungry. Many are the Gurus like lamps in house and house; but rare is the Guru who lights up all like the sun. .. Many are the Gurus who rob the disciple of his wealth; but rare is the Guru who removes the afflictions of the disciple. Many are they who are given to the discipline and conduct according to varna (class), asrama (stage) and kula (family); but he who is devoid of all volition is the Guru rare to find. He is the Guru by whose very contact there flows the supreme Ananda; the intelligent man shall choose such a one as the Guru and no other. KULARNAVA TANTRA That sharing, that depth can move a student along faster than any practice. As a matter of fact with such sharing of essence the student can progress along without any sort of "practices". Such sharing allows the student to realize that essence first with the help of the guru and then to realize it on his own. Also, any such talk of depth or even worry about someone being deeper is more of an obstruction, of ego than anything else. If one is so worried then they definitely are not ready for any type of Guru Yoga.

Thank you CT, I would agree that at that stage it is no longer a merging but a being and a knowing. Much like the Father and I are one at this stage. Before that for those not to that depth it is a progression like everything else.

I am saying it is possible to merge, become one with such a being and the difference in the depth of the water is a powerful one.

Does that mean there is only really one being? Someone trapped in local mind compared to another sharing his essence that is beyond local mind. Do you not think that would feel like anything? Help at all? Or is it more we are already the same no I wouldn't experience anything being in the presence of a Buddha? I bet you would

I would disagree. Such merging is very powerful means of progressing. First one experiences a connection with is powerful energy and silence. A merge is much, much more depending on ones depth and clarity. I would also disagree that any such merging as I am describing is a minds through telepathy type thing.

Now to make sure I am understanding you correctly. "Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past has tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind." Is this saying that once you realize Buddha Nature or have realized it is all of the same essence there is no longer a concept of merging or is this before one has realized Buddha Nature?

Now I am really confused. I thought you corrected me a few post ago saying that in Buddhism they do talk about merging and part of that is with guru yoga. To me every such description of guru and Yidam practices does not seem to me about merging, becoming one with another being. Be it the guru or the Yidam. If someone can show me where Buddhism mentions it more than just symbolically I will stand by my statement that Buddhism says it is not possible and one of the things Buddhism has gotten wrong.

Lot's of duality in that statement If the guru isn't able to do the connection and for you all it is, is mantra and visualization. How is it a real merge? Especially if the lama doesn't feel it? Such a connection would be powerful for both parties wouldn't it? Are you not just connecting to the guru at his level and all the rest is just talk about it being his ultimate self? Also, I posted the link because CT said that was a good explanation of Deity Yoga. Again it doesn't seem like you are merging with divine beings with such a description.

Now not to beat a dead horse but I am really trying to learn what Buddhist believe. After doing a lot of reading on guru yoga it seems that the higher teachings talk of merging but the actually practice is more symbolic. You are not connecting directly to the lama. You are connecting to the absolute lama and it is the mantras and what they represent that is the actual merging. Deity yoga seems to be the same at least as described here. Any clarification would be great.

Hi Mark, I am a little slow this morning so please forgive me if I am missing it. Are you saying that you can merge, become one with Divine beings and other people without even trying? Or are you more saying that meditation isn't a doing it is a being an all the time being type thing?

But one can connect or merge with another to help or be helped. A very powerful thing that is missed in Buddhism.

I am a big believer in moving beyond the mind when hurting. Of feeling the underlying energy of the upset and residing, being with that obstruction, that feeling and letting it go. Our hurts as described by the OP is energy hitting upon obstructions. His practice is a little to much, hitting upon issues which cause mind stories. To me the story doesn't matter, the brain likes to come up with issues or make one up if one isn't present. So finding the underlying issue is just more thoughts chasing thoughts. The issue you find may just be a surface issue, there is always more. So instead of saying the issue is not believing in a concept that makes everything easy. It is more like he is doing to much and needs to slow his practice down. Notice after he took a break for a couple of days things eased. This is a common occurrence for people trying to push the practice to fast. So for me when dealing with issues is again moving beyond the thoughts, beyond the upsets, residing in the energy of the obstruction is much like your acknowledging the upset and not getting caught up in the "I am hurting". I guess the difference is I am more of a fan of being or being with instead of thinking of concepts in such times. I would agree that over time, concepts become realizations and it's always best to put our concepts to the test with practice.

I think you are talking two different levels of being. If you have realized emptiness it isn't a concept any longer but a state of being. Hence as you stated no issues and nothing get's hit. Until one has realized such a state, issues still get hit because it is all local mind. Even the belief, is just a thought, one that you are caught up in. If you still believe in a CT and all the beliefs that make up CT. You are still caught up and getting "hit" by stuff. One concept doesn't move one beyond other concepts and issues. Only a true realization will do that. Saying that believing in a concept that is not realized will make everything smooth and easy is just propaganda.

Thank you Virtue, I believe he was talking about meditation not a realization. He was saying with the right beliefs and practices one never has any issues that might arise. Even with the realization of working through obstructions. That working through can still be a pain in the ass. aka not always fun. It takes effort when caught up to step back and reside, to do ones practice and trust in it in those times of pain and suffering. I have found it is when one does work through the issues it is the expansion afterwards that is always worth it.

So, if you believe in particular concepts then with the right meditation you will not have any issues that arises from your spiritual progression or practice? Nothing ever get's "hit" it just all goes away nice and easy?

Is much better than Gatorade and has more electrolytes.

No, You are that energy, until that is realized locations that can feel draining is just energy hitting on your issues. If the energy has no issues to hit it just flows through non-attaching. All such methods of conserving energy, shielding, etc. are just local mind attempts of dealing with the energy. Just my take.

As well as one mind stream being able to help along another.