Jonesboy

Hard to tell it was a source when you copied my quote but added a sentence to it to change it's meaning. Yes it is talking about you can't suppress your desires and think that is liberation. The previous paragraph helps. You next quote is highly misleading... again Shaktism is an amalgam of Shaivism and mother goddess traditions. The Shaiva notion that Shiva’s shakti, not Shiva himself, is active is taken to the extreme—without Shakti, Shiva is a corpse, and Shakti is the creator as well as creation. Another important notion (partly derived from Yoga philosophy) is that throughout the body there are subtle canals that carry esoteric powers connected with the spinal cord, at the bottom of which the Goddess is coiled around the lingam as kundalini (“coil”); she can be made to rise through the body to the top, whereupon release from samsara takes place. Important among the Shakta Tantras are the Kularnava-tantra (“Ocean of Tantrism”), which gives details on the “left-handed” cult forms of ritual copulation (i.e., those that are not part of traditional Hindu practice); the Kulachudamani (“Crown Jewel of Tantrism”), which discusses ritual; and the Sharadatilaka (“Beauty Mark of the Goddess Sharada”) of Lakshmanadeshika (11th century), which focuses almost exclusively on magic. The goddess cults eventually centred around Durga, the consort of Shiva, in her fiercer aspect. ....The interpretation of doctrines and ritual practice is varied. Extreme Shakta communities, for example, are said to perform the secret nocturnal rites of the shrichakra (“wheel of radiance,” described in the Kularnava-tantra), in which they avail themselves of the natural and esoteric symbolic properties of colours, sounds, and perfumes to intensify their sensual experiences. Most Tantrists, however, eliminate all but the verbal ritual. Again you give a misleading picture, or an incomplete one. Here is the rest of the paragraph. In the Kalackra Tantra a Buddha reveals that man's own body is the true cosmos (hence, or course, the true laboratory also) and stresses the importance of sexuality as well as pranayama. Hence the body must be led to the perfection of health and maintained there, not mortified, for as the Hevajra Tantra says, the microcosmos is, as it were, a temple 'holy unto the Lord'. The Kularnava Tantra goes so far as to say the union with God is possible only through sexual (though non-generative) union. Bat this aim, which is radically mystical and not intellectual, requires a long and difficult path for realisation (sadhana), somewhat parallel indeed with the alchemical opus, for the body itself must be transmuted into a 'diamond body' (vajra-deha; we have already met with the expression chin kang shen,' p. 228). Moreover, and it brings us back to very familiar ground, 'the aim of this sadhana was the union of the two polar principles, sun and moon, fire and water, Siva and Sakti, in the body and soul of the practictioner. Here is a link to the actual sutra so you can read and quote from it yourself. Maybe we should start a new thread if you so choose. It is a very good sutra. http://www.holybooks.com/kularnava-tantra/

You added "even though physically it is between a man and a woman." That is a new age thing and not what true tantra is about. In the sutra there are 5 references to sex and I have already provided the first one. Let me list the others. True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma Therefore give up attachment, give it up wholly, sarvatmand, not by the mind alone, but by the whole of your being including your desire-self. If you cannot do it in your weak- ness, resort to the company of the Good. Holy company acts as medicine. He who has no company of the holy, no discrimination, no pure vision, he is indeed blind, how can he fail to take the wrong path? Engaged constantly in the round of food, drink, sex and sleep, one is no more than an animal. Only he who has knowledge is a man. Be a man, pursue the true object in life, acquire Knowledge of the Supreme Truth. It makes a big difference in the Kaula worship whether the worshipper is an en- lightened person in the ways of Knowledge or he is an ignorant man. The wise, says the Tantra, intoxicated with the spirit of the ritual, do japa, meditate, praise, prostrate, instruct, query, delight themselves during the sessions. But the ignorant wander, roar, laugh, argue, weep, desire for sex and cavil. Slight, garru- lousness, argumentation without logic, indif- ference, fear, anger, these are to be avoided in the Circle of Puja. No quarter shall be given to egotism. All are eligible to respect in the eyes of the true Kaula. In the presence of the Guru of the yogins, and in great centres of realization and pilgrimage and Ashrams, take care to avoid washing of feet, bathing, anointing with oil, cleansing of teeth, micturition, vomiting, shaving, sleeping, sex, conspicuous sitting, harsh speech, ordering, laughter, weeping, loosening of the hair, of the turban and the cloak, nudity, stretching of the legs, debate, acrimony, casting of blame, contor- tion of the body, producing of musical notes from the body, striking of the hands, dice, amusements, bouts of wrestling and the like and dancing. They bring the curse of the Deity. Hope this helps.

Bindi, Amazing how she missed this. From the introduction of the Kularnava Sutra. The Kularnava is an important text in one of the tradi- tions of Tantra with a pronouncedly practical bent of thought. It calls upon man to wake up to the rare privilege that has been given to him, e.g. human birth in which the being becomes conscious of himself and is offered a choice: a choice between stagnation and rapid progression towards his Godhead. He is warned of the consequences of losing himself in the rounds of transient excitements and pleasures He is also put on guard against the many pseudo-paths that abound in this world. He is asked to purify himself and told how to do it. In un- ambiguous terms he is told that a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy; the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman. In issuing these warnings, the adepts of the Tantra would seem to have anticipated the modern turn of mixing up sex with spirituality. It is a pity that a text like this has not received adequate publicity in the west where tantra-enthusiasts are on the wrong track.

You do know what assume means don't you? I like to go here fyi: http://emahofoundation.org/index.php And yes I have received at least one empowerment from him.

I am not familiar with Muktananda as he didn't write the sutra. Abhinavagupta wrote the sutra so I would go off of his teachings and not disparage a teaching and Abhinavagupta becuase of what someone else is doing...

I am sorry CT. I asked you questions that you have refused to answer. One doesn't have to be a trained under a Vajrayana lineage do know that empowerment's are more than an acknowledgement. Nor does one have to be to answer my previous question about sustaining power and the Lankavatra Sutra. Your quote of mine is not tradition specific nor does one need to be trained to answer it or to be provided an answer. You seem to have a problem with me. I can admit when I am wrong and when i might word something wrong. I have yet to see the same insight from you. I am really not interested in a tug of war with you CT.

Kinda like you saying an empowerment is just an acknowledgement? Or you saying the Lankavatra Sutra isn't credible? Just about every tradition that say's they can lead one to Buddhahood gives transmissions and empowerment's to aid one on the path. How many traditions use them and how many teachings and practice would you not be able to do without them? That was my point and I admit I should have worded it better. At the same time it is my belief that the sustaining power is a continuous transmission.. i.e. sustaining.

I make no claim CT. Just saying a professor of Religious studies saying how KS is wrong.. When so many others have spoken so highly of it doesn't impress me. I would prefer people of renown before disparaging at tradition.

Sounds like you don't know but just want to tell me I am wrong Thanks for the reply.

Not really when it comes to spiritual stuff. A professor of Religious studies without the Wisdom of realization doesn't really mean much to me. You kinda miss a lot.

Empowerments are more than an acknowledgement. Is not the sustaining power a transmission which the Buddha says one needs to become a Buddha? Also, I never said any of it promises anything. I stand corrected in saying one can't attain Buddhahood without them. One can be a Pratyekabuddha and take a hundred kalpas to achieve it. I would like your thoughts on what the Buddha means by sustaining power if it is not a transmission. .

I think i will take a more credible source for discussion on the merits of KS. Thank you.

Your first link doesn't work and I didn't see anything that talked disparaging towards Kashmir Shaivism. It is definitely a guru based tradition. Your Buddhist quote is just saying don't have blind faith or expect others i.e. Buddhas to do the work for you. You have to do the work, you have to let go. It is not saying that guru's are bad or having a teacher is wrong. As a matter of fact the Buddha say's you need help to become a Buddha. From the Lankavatra Sutra: Is it usual for God to hit an obstruction or fear? What one is not able to let go of immediately is that which one needs to work on letting go of. The Buddhas can help, provide space and energy but it is you that still has to let the issue go. Which is right in line with what you shared above .

Abhinavagupta is considered a very great master and his writing to me are beyond par. That would be the first time I have read anything negative towards him. Do you mind providing a link to someone critizing Abhinavagupta? There are also many Buddhist who would agree that without empowerments or direct transmission one cannot reach Buddhahood. Or it will take you a thousand lifetimes to do it yourself compared to receiving divine grace which can help one achieve liberation in one lifetime. Your call. Because the church tells you that heaven is some place after you die, that it is outside of yourself. Maybe the Buddha's words from the Lankavatara sutra will help. I am open to being wrong but it seems at that moment Jesus hit an obstruction, a fear.. One that he was able to let go of moments later.

Maybe we should start a separate thread on non duality and duality in early Christianity so we don't derail this thread. Here is a pretty good book I just found talking about about gnostic, non duality at the Council of Nicea and non duality in Christianity in general. A Study of Qualitative Non-Pluralism https://books.google.com/books?id=jW2pcWpXY8wC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=non+duality+and+duality+in+early+christianity&source=bl&ots=F50dHxIwPk&sig=62Igt4wXt6zsigQtRL7sSq70hJk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir8MX8k6zSAhUor1QKHTW_Cng4ChDoAQggMAM#v=onepage&q=non%20duality%20and%20duality%20in%20early%20christianity&f=false

You are right my memory was bad. The Council of Nicia didn't create the Bible and beyond one Bishop being attacked was non violent. The Council of Ephesus on the other hand is a completely different story and what I was referring too with regard to the violence and the formation of the church and its teachings.

Hi Bindi, I believe the Tantra clearly states that a guru is much more than someone who will bliss you out and that's it. Abhinavagupta does say that finding a guru that can help remove obstructions/sin is rare. Jesus saying he is the only way to the Farther is troublesome if you are still thinking dualistically. Jesus and the Father are one, the only way to the Father is through the Farther. Not ego, he is just saying there is no difference. Jesus didn't preach war, but he knew what would come of his teachings, of what man caught up in the local mind is capable of. Was he not Crucified? Were not the disciples persecuted? Look at what happened when the bible was created. Priest were assassinated, stomped to death all over the debate of duality and non duality and what books should be chosen. Now at the same time he was bringing a new truth one that was different and challenged the Church. 102. Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat." 88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'" What Jesus is saying is something we are all familiar with, with regard to the church. Compare what the church teaches to what Jesus was teaching. 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty." 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

What is getting scrambled up? Also, what do you see as new age?

Couldn't you say that Jesus taught Bodhicitta?

Please reference my previous post.

Maybe instead of thinking there is something wrong with people you can learn to accept them for who they are. The things you are saying are a projection of the person you are. Read what you are saying and how it is making you look.

Aetna CEO says ObamaCare in 'death spiral' http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/319629-aetna-ceo-says-obamacare-in-death-spiral "The CEO of one of the largest health insurers said Wednesday that ObamaCare is in a "death spiral." Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini's comments come the day after Humana announced it would not participate in the ObamaCare exchanges in 2018. "It's not going to get any better; it's getting worse," Bertolini said at a Wall Street Journal event. "You saw my friend, Bruce, at Humana say, 'We're out.' "

Hi neti neti, That reminds me of a quote from the Triadic Heart of Siva. Abhinavagupta explains it like this. "Even as Siva creates the very real game of breaking himself into parts which suffer transformation, division, extinction and emptiness, he is nevertheless able to maintain himself free of the game and intact as Siva, all the while taking on the roles required by the game."

What else is Form=Void ; Void=Form... than Dual=Non-Dual ; Non-Dual=Dual. Form is energy/light. First one is caught up in the mind, that all things are objects/dualistic. With increased depth one realizes that all things are really energy or light you could say (oneness/non-duality). Void is more moving beyond the light. I always think of it as that which is in the center of the light is emptiness. It is that emptiness that all things arise from and return too, including the light. When one has realized emptiness, that which is beyond all form/energy/light and that essence which is all things is one and the same aka void=form and form=void then one is a Buddha.

Hi dawei, Any thought to the idea that non duality is the realization that you are one with everything, one with the essence that is all things which is Siva but one becomes like Siva? If so, what does it mean to become like Siva to you?