Jonesboy

I would really double check the resources that says the astral golden body is the same as any of those. You can find a few of them at the spirituality forum. They don't talk about silence or residing or oneness. They talk about there golden bodies and astral travel. Duality. They will help you build yours too.

It was an article on the view of the church Bindi. It was not an article on the practices of Jesus. I think you may have missed my and the entire point of the article. The title kind of spells it out. "Why a Hindu Accepts Christ and Rejects Churchianity" In our previous discussions you were talking about the church and Jesus. I shared an article on the hindu point of view of Jesus and the church. You have been posting a lot on Yoga so I thought I would share. All the best, Tom

What about the idea of realizing they are one and the same?

I completely agree with you in regard to the church imposing their doctrine. I think this shows what Jesus thought about the church. 88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'

That is very true. It was written hundreds of years after the resurrection of Jesus by the church. Here is a great article: Why a Hindu Accepts Christ and Rejects Churchianity By Swami Abhedananda (A direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa) A Hindu distinguishes the religion of the churches from the religion of Jesus Christ. Speaking from the Hindu standpoint, the religion that the churches uphold and preach today, that has been built around the personality of Jesus the Christ, and which is popularly known as Christianity, should be called ‘Churchianity’, in contradistinction to that pure religion of the heart that was taught by Jesus the Christ and practised by his disciples. The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. On the contrary, the religion of the church is based upon a book, believes in dogmas, professes a creed, has an organized system for preaching it, is backed up by theologies, performs rituals, practises ceremonials, and obeys the commands of a host of priests. The popular history of churchianity begins from 325 years after Christ, the 20th year of the reign of Constantine the Great, when the famous Council was convened at the City of Nocea. Those who have read the life of this august Roman Emperor will remember how remarkable was the character of this so called pious supporter of the church dogmas. He put to death his own son and his wife Fausta on groundless suspicion, cut off his brother-in-law Licinius and the unoffending son of Licinius and massacred everyone of his rivals. Nevertheless the Greek Church has canonized him, and adores the memory of St. Constantine. It was Constantine the Great who issued a decree in 321 A.D., for the general observance of Sunday, instead of the Jewish Sabbath. He hated the Jews and everything connected with the Jews, and said: "This day shall be regarded as a special occasion of prayer, because it is the Sun’s day, the day of our Lord". Since that time, the church has accepted that decree, ignoring the fact that this was the day for the worship of the sun among the pagans It was Constantine the great who decided what should be the creed of the church and commanded the assembled bishops to receive the decrees of the Council of Nicea as the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Since that time the church has given authenticity to that creed, which is repeated almost every Sunday in all the orthodox churches in Christendom. The horrifying accounts of fraud, political wire pulling, theological jugglery, ecclesiastical scandal-mongering, passions breaking forth into curses and anathemas, bloody massacres and inhuman assassinations in the ecumenical councils, show that these were the principal instruments in the building up of the creed of Churchianity. Readers of ecclesiastical history will remember that in one of the disputes following the great Council of Nicea, maidens were insulted and scourged, the holy temple was profaned, books were thrown into flames, and the church and baptistery were burned and monks were trodden under foot. Such were the deeds of the pious bishops and founders of Churchianity. In the Council of Ephesus, which was held in 431 A.D., monks and bishops screamed: "Whoso speaks of two natures is a Nestorius, and let him be cut asunder". A bishop was kicked to death by another bishop in course of their arguments, and 137 corpses were left in a church to attest the convincing reasons by which the most ruffian side proved its orthodoxy. For more of the article: http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm

I would say it is very clear Ramana did not say different things at different times. If you read what I posted it is perfectly clear. It shows how ones depth can influence what one perceives. At the highest level you are awareness. At the lowest level you are a person with a body. At the highest level you are all things. At lower levels you are a physical body noticing spiritual things. With your quote he is showing where as one becomes more and more engulfed in thoughts one seeks a physical location and he shows it to you. My quote he is showing the highest point and working it down to the physical level. Showing how depth and clarity make a difference in perception. All the best, Tom

What is called the heart is no other than Brahman. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 8.) Call it by any name, God, Self, the Heart or the Seat of Consciousness, it is all the same. The point to be grasped is this, that HEART means the very Core of one's being, the Centre, without which there is nothing whatever. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 72.) [The Heart] is the Centre of spiritual experience according to the testimony of Sages. The spiritual Heart-centre is quite different from the blood- propelling, muscular organ known by the same name. The spiritual Heart-centre is not an organ of the body. All that you can say of the Heart is that it is the very Core of your being, that [with] which you are really identical (as the word in Sanskrit literally means), whether you are awake, asleep or dreaming, whether you are engaged in work or immersed in Samadhi. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 73.) The Heart … is different from the blood vessel, so called, and is not the Anahata Chakra in the middle of the chest, one of the six centres spoken of in books on Yoga. (Ramana Maharshi, KOL, 150.) This heart is different from the physical heart; beating is the function of the latter. The former is the seat of spiritual experience. That is all that can be said of it. Truly speaking pure Consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no “within” and “without.” There is no “right” or “left” for it. Pure Consciousness, which is the Heart, includes all; and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate Truth. From this absolute standpoint, the Heart, Self or Consciousness can have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is the reason? The body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the mind is but a poor reflection of the radiant Heart. How can That in which everything is contained, be itself confined as a tiny part within the physical body which is but an infinitesimal, phenomenal manifestation of the one Reality? But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms of physical body and the world. For instance, you say "I have come to this Asramam all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas''. But that is not the truth. Where [is there] a “coming” or “going” or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading Spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached this Asramam. This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers himself a subject living in an objective world, it appears as something altogether visionary! It is by coming down to the level of the ordinary understanding that a place is assigned to the Heart in the physical body. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 73-4.) It goes on from there http://www.angelfire.com/space2/light11/diction/ramana.html#11

Hi Steve, Please forgive me for not responding sooner. The technique is the only technique that Jeff has brought forth. Everything else he does is a mind to mind in nature. A lot of people seem to like Internal Fire.

That's dumb TI. Offer an alternative please instead of spamming the thread.

Here is a favorite: http://community.livingunbound.net/i.../#comment-3783 Primordial - Foundation Energy Practice - Internal Fire Sit cross legged (or in a chair) with back straight in a comfortable position. Place your tongue on the roof of your mouth and take a few deep, relaxing breaths. Rest your hands in your lap and let the tension drop from your body with each breath. Picture the sun high above your head. Feel the radiant warmth of the sun for a few moments. Then feel a powerful sunbeam coming straight down from the sun and hitting directly on the top of your head. Feel the warmth of the sunbeam on the top of your head. When you have the warmth, imagine that the light starts flowing through into your head, filling the third eye and sparkling as it does. Then continuing down, tickling your throat as it goes by, and down into your heart. Feel the warmth in your heart as it radiates out to fill your entire chest cavity. Make it as bright as possible. When this expanded heart space is a bright as the sun... Send it deep down through your legs and feet into the ground. Then push deeper and deeper like a laser beam into the center of the earth. When the beam hits the center of the earth, feel it hit the magma, which then returns a powerful flow up and up, through the earth and back up through your feet and legs and exploding into your heart. Feel your heart grow. Feel it grow until it encompasses your entire body. Rest in your expanded heart for a few moments. Then send a beam back up to the sun and feel it respond with another flow back down to you. Know yourself as the center of an energy loop connecting the Earth and the Sun through your body and based in your heart. Like fire rising and water flowing down. Hold this image as brightly and clearly as you can and give the divine intent for it to continue flowing in that way. Your subconscious will now maintain the circuit flow, while you continue with daily activities. This practice should be done eight times daily until it becomes stabilized (usually around a month). There is no need for concurrent repetitions and it may be done at any quiet time during day. Let me know if you have any questions, Tom

Very nice Topic. From my experience I first noticed energy/prana when doing pranayama. It would be outside of me mainly.. I would feel the energy like a wind blowing against my face. With increased practice I was able to feel the energy move up and down my spine but it was never ecstatic. With light I first would feel it flowing through me all day long. Like a wind flowing through my body, removing obstructions and making it easier to let go. Over time that light became ecstatic. It might have been a person entering a room or someone sending energy. Learning to not grasp at the light, at the ecstatic/orgasmic feeling was the true lesson. I am only feeling what the light is hitting. With continued depth the light went from ecstatic to silence. I still have periods of ecstatic energy but mostly the energy increases silence. Another aspect of the light is how one can perceive it. At first it is like a white out. All you feel is this strong flow of light. With increased depth one is able to start picking things out within the light. You can say it becomes more and more refined. Not just in what one can perceive within the light but how the light feels. To me the most advanced beings feel like silk as their light flows through. With continued depth the light radiates from within . All the best.

Apech, Please refer to this earlier post. The topics of kundalin and the like has been discussed in pretty good detail with Bindi and TI in the past. Asking that a separate thread be made to not derail this topic is not an unusual request.

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Per doctrines.. is the problem 3bob. With the sayings of Jesus and I only speak for myself. To me when I look at just what Jesus is saying it all makes since to me. It is all in line with everything said in Hinduism and Buddhism. Read the Gospel of Thomas not as you have been taught by the church but by your depth of experience 3bob. 76. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself. So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys." To your knowledge what is unfailing, enduring that cannot be destroyed? If we are talking about non-duality.. Does this not fit perfectly? 77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." If you were to remove the word Jesus and instead but Buddha.. would you question this saying at all?

Yes I did Bindi which is why I said what I did. To be honest I have no idea what "Clear Mind" means in Zen. Maybe we can say it is the same thing as Rigpa... Clear Light Awareness. In the "With any Realization" thread I had said that one doesn't need to experience emptiness to experience Rigpa. That wasn't a true statement. Emptiness is experienced in a few different way's. One way is like the supposed Zen master mentions, while in meditation. What I was saying is I didn't think one has to go outside, close your eye's and become one with everything around you. Within that oneness one realizes the emptiness of all things at the same time. I didn't think you had to go to that level to experience Rigpa. The Zen master is saying that emptiness is a "state of mind". Like in Samadhi when one is residing and is feeling all thoughts, emotions and feelings as waves of energy.. Energy is like a cloud which has form but is empty. Emptiness is not a state of mind, it is what everything is. A chair seems solid but science will tell us it is just energy... Maybe you have noticed that you will first have an experience, then a state of mind in meditation. With continued practice one begins to experience or to realize these states during daily life. Is Rigpa the end all be all of spirituality? Mahayana would say no. They would say you can have clarity/oneness and depth/continued expansion of that oneness. Example being.. you can realize oneness like a Tolle, but you have not realized it enough to move it with intent. Tolle would have clarity but not depth. The Zen master has experienced emptiness and is talking about clarity. But with continued depth one will begin to feel everything around them as that oneness and it's empty nature. He has not realized it in his daily life radiating from him, as him... He is more worried about right thoughts and judgement it seems. Now this is getting way off topic of the thread. So maybe anymore talk about emptiness should be in the emptiness thread. All the best.

Hi Bindi, With regard to the Zen master. I am not talking about Samadhi. I am talking about everyday life He needs to go farther.... As to your question. Change nothing to emptiness and you nailed it

Here is a book I just found that might help you understand the Heart Sutra. Starting on page 105. http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Mirror-of-Wisdom.pdf?351736 This should help you understand motion and rest or as the book calls it form and void.

Hi Bindi, I will let Jeff speak for himself. As for me, motion and rest sounds exactly like the Heart Sutra. I often think of silence/rest,void as a calm body of water. I think of form/motion/energy as the ripples on the pond. The reason i bolded Present Moment is because I wanted to bring your attention to the none dualistic nature of what he was saying. Here Jesus is referring to ones Natural State. Bindi you are making this very difficult. 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. If people are telling you the Fathers kingdom is outside of you. In some place in the sky or in some far off plane or dimension you won't find it. You will find rocks and birds and fish. The kingdom is within and without. It is all things. As in I am That. Until then.. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Hi Bindi, With regard to motion and rest. Would not that be the same as form and void? Another example is: 91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you." He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment." This also comes to mind with the present discussion. From GOT: 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Hi Bindi, I think we both are aware of each other's view on kundalini being universal consciousness. With regard to duality and none duality. Look at what you wrote and see all the seperation you are attaching to. That you are creating for yourself. Just something to think about.

Hi Bindi, I completely get your point. I see repeated over and over again the separate nature of these various energies. It is all just light. It is this separation that causes issues and confusion. Just like with the mental mind state of seperation or duality. We are the light by any name, Holy Spirit, kundalini or universal consciousness. Realizing it is all me is the key. Just like with transmission of light. You have to realize you are the light.

can you explain what you mean by that a little more please?

I kind of think of it like this. Think of a window that is covered with dirt. As we progress the dirt is removed. Yet each step of the way our vision has been impacted by our level of depth or how clean the view is. Opening the third eye can lead to many amazing things. Those amazing sights can also keep us trapped because of what we see. Also just because it is open in no way does that mean it can't be abused. Desires and attachments are still there. Anyone can fall at anytime.

Nope, Just working on your wisdom right now. The body maybe later