Jonesboy

I am not sure I am following you. Ngondro is a connecting practice to Tapihritsa? Mind sharing some more information on that?

Nobody is saying it is a product of your imagination. You know I believe Buddha’s are real and that one can connect to them, merge with them and that it is extremely beneficial. I have been told many times such things are not possible and not what is being taught in Buddhism. Can you show me where it says you are connecting with a guru? Isn’t it more the absolute guru, what the guru represents rather than a direct sharing with a teacher/person? Much of this was discussed here.

Interesting, do you have any teachings to show it is a connection? I have had many discussions with serious Buddhist practitioners and all have said it is not a connection. I don’t believe the Tibetans give one set of teachings to non Tibetans and another to Tibetans.

It’s an empowerment to help with the practice.

It is my understanding in Buddhism there is no actual connecting to a deity. It is much like Guru yoga where it is more symbolic and is a means of realizing the qualities the deity represents within oneself.

Yes it’s tantra and it’s Rigpa because issues and fears are as people said spontaneously released. I would say even more, worked on so over time the issues are fully removed. Because of the depth there is no fears of shared issues like has been mentioned earlier.

What does gifted clarity mean?

From my understanding of Buddhism and this has been discussed many times, no. In Buddhism it is a pointing out of instructions, the transmission is by tradition done through the instructions. As you know a dive is taking a group of people and is to me more a merging of group consciousness into one. A sharing of oneness. As Jeff mentioned a true light level dive is like a direct immersion into Rigpa for as long as the dive lasts. A dive can be done daily where as the Buddhist don’t believe such a thing is possible or beneficial. At most it is a little energy that someone is feeling but that is it.

Jeff, Earlier in the thread you mentioned the blackboard analogy. While what you are describing makes sense to me. What in a spiritual framework would you say the blackboard is? “Think of your self like a giant blackboard. Issues, fears and karma form the chalk writing on the blackboard. When looking at a blackboard, one notices the writing, but not the blackboard itself. Practices help one to erase parts of the blackboard, making it easier to notice the blackboard underneath. But, when a space has been cleared, it is more common to just stay in that nice and clear space, since it is chalk free, but still never noticing the underlying blackboard. When one is hit with parental worries about school and life, those concerns about the future can create (or extend) new writings on the blackboard which can cover old clear areas, or simply just draw ones attention to a new area of the blackboard which is not as clear. The key is realizing that one is and always has been the blackboard. The blackboard knows that it is only chalk and does not have the ability to harm the blackboard. When one "resides" in the blackboard, if someone hits the chalk (issues, fears and karma), the blackboard can immediately let it go and clear the black board in that area. This is why it is helpful (and necessary) to go back into the world. If one is alone on a mountain top, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a simple clear spot and the entire blackboard. Helping others causes the chalk to be hit all over the blackboard, allowing it to be truly cleared.”

Please leave me out of your attacks on Jeff or anyone else. I responded to Steve with my view, Jeff responded with his view. Everyone is entitled to their views and there is no need to be shitty to anyone because it may be different from yours.

Maybe I am splitting hairs here.. If you are merged with a being and you are giving to them, are you then really merged? Such giving at that point is dualistic. Would it not be more of a residing/being and as Steve mentioned a spontaneous liberation?

I would think that they can't let go of issues for you. More they provide the space to allow you to let go of them.

I did not mean to give the impression that scriptures can not lead to a mental understanding. My point was the teaching isn't about a mental understanding but a realization of being, a change in being to realize that form=void. It is moving beyond the conceptual, after all isn't that what Buddhism is all about?

I am glad it works for you. The Buddha was a wise man and provided many means. All the best..

I would have to disagree that the Heart Sutra has anything to do with a mental understanding. Both sides are about realizations of being. Just discussing the first part of the sutra, Form=Void. First what is Form? What is the true nature of Form? Since we have been discussing Dzogchen in this thread let's use the definition from Norbu when talking about the Primordial State. The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure, material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or another of energy. So all form is energy, now what is void? The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals, whether they are aware of it or not, whether they are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in existence. So the first part is saying that one has to realize that all things are energy and that the true nature of energy is void. A much deeper realization that looking at a fire and saying it has no self nature because it is dependent on wood and air for example.

Some really, really good stuff in that thread.

Can you give me a little bit more of what you are looking for?

I am trying to remember, are you referring to my quote about Buddha Nature from The Self Perfected State by Norbu?

Not really.

I would agree and some have trouble learning that lesson. It feels good, you want to grasp on to it, to feel more of it but once you do it goes away. It is a very powerful lesson in being open, non grasping and letting it flow through and of course once you learn that lesson things change and you don't feel it the same way.

I would agree, If you are truly residing in that energy, it is just like single point meditation. You shouldn't be lost in thoughts of the upset, if you are you are not residing.

Isn't silence blissful? Could one not say that with more silence in daily life you are breaking free of the yoke of those previous attachments to one degree or another? I have found that the energy feeling very sexual is a phase. Many, many people get caught up in the sexual aspect of it. They like it and grasp on to it or they fight and run from it. Both of those are things people have to learn to let go off. Another way of looking at it is you are using that energy to work on those obstructions that you named animal nature. Running or staying in a box/yoke.. won't help one let those issues go.

I have definitely seen this in many ways. I have seen some associate the beginning of feeling energy as pain, I have seen people grasp onto that pain, enjoy it and often the negativity it brings. I have also seen people feel the ecstatic energy as a negative thing as well. Running from it, hating how it will come and go without them being able to control it. On the other side of that I see people who view it all as a wonder and are open to it all.

Jeff, Do you mind going a little deeper into these two verses? What is meant by many mansions and preparing a place for you in the first section. In the second what is meant by I go unto my Father when he is already one with the Father?

I agree, Mystical/Gnostic teachings have been around for thousands of years. It is just like any other tradition. Lot's to learn and see what resonates.