Karl

Depends what you mean by God.

Prior to the Trivium I wasn't armed so I saw the world much as most people see it. It was more difficult to make informed decisions-although it was helped by making a study of Austrian economic philosophy which contained the seed of thinking. I knew precisely what the Trivium was before embarking on the study. It didn't promise anything at all and the reason I looked into it was to ensure I had logical premise in my current novel. I could not have foretold the changes it would make, but then, I wasn't expecting anything beyond applying a bit of logical thought. The new world order/illuminati movement are real. They aren't a matter of conspiracy theory,they are factual, historical groups. That said, there isn't currently one group (the illuminati pretty much died off a few hundred years ago in Austria) but an idea which could be described as 'squaring the circle' or 'to cube the globe' which is now supported by the wider public, who in principle or part support these aims. For instance, even amongst virtual libertarian types on this forum there is support for population control by force. Others support taxation, force, war, state education, big government security etc. So, the new world order ideology is now well embedded and widely supported in different ways and forms. For some it is overt and unthinking (army/police/bureaucracy) others to a lesser extent. This was Plato's republic and hails from the Indian content originally. We are all, to some extent, Policing each other's actions and ideas. Some run off to the woods when glimpsing the truth, others turn to esoteric arts or religion.

Who said 'feels like to be pregnant' ? Joslin has meditated in both Dao and Buddhist form for over 19 years and taught these practices. He certainly does have enough to qualify him to make an argument, just as a doctor/midwife/ nurse or bystander can make an informed decision about pregnancy. Just as you can make the argument that spaceships are orbiting the Earth and the means they employ to maintain the orbit despite not being an astronaut, physicist or technician.

They have spent a lot of time trying to convince the population that they are. One of the 'art of war' rules I would imagine. Attack where they least expect, use the enemies weakness against them-the establishment is small, but the majority are ignorant whilst thinking themselves clever.

Why ? You think it's cool to do that ? It's breaking and entering knowing full well that the state has already got you to leave the chain off the door and the windows open. Funnily enough, last week our friends at GCHQ were telling everyone to stop using complex passwords and look on their website to find common passwords such as : password and 123456. They can hack your brain and now they wish to physically hack your communications.

Where did you get the instructions for practicing meditation ? What were the advantages promised ? What was the philosophy followed and what made you so sure it was a good philosophy ? See, these subtle things of mind you have only witnessed during a very introspective self examination, but you have completely failed to do the same with the input of the instruction that has led you to that action. This is a logical loop. You went straight to the why and how ? But completely ignored the what, when, where? Even subtle words of song and nursery rhyme are amazingly powerful. This is where 'sound bites' came from. There isn't a need to subjectively analyse everything unless you mean to absorb it, however, if you don't have the defences to stop it being absorbed then manipulator can make use of that fact and you will absorb it without being aware that it is now part of your conscious belief. If I wanted to I could boot one past your sleeping goal keeper. I deliberately refrain from doing so, but I have all the techniques and tricks and the certificates to prove it. Others are far less concerned about what you absorb and I'm saying you should wake up your goal keeper and keep him primed and alert. The Trivium does that.

TI it doesn't matter. He has formulated a theory of the effects of meditative practices which accords with many experiences of it. He could equally of done the same for taking psychoactive drugs, it isn't necessary to have taken every drug to make the inductive leap. If you are happy to continue doing what you are doing and want to ignore the theory then that's up to you isn't it ? Its just another piece of information that you can choose to integrate or, ignore as erroneous. This is the realm of reasoning. the problem is that you deal in polarities and therefore turn it into an argument you must win, instead of something to be evaluated. I agree with his evaluation and theory, you do not, but your argument swings around a circumstantial ad hominem which wishes to crush the argument, because the proponent hasn't tried every possible combination of practices. This is equivalent to saying 'what can a man know about pregnancy because he isn't a woman'. It's a false argument.

For me it won't do anything. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence on forums throughout the websphere of people who have experienced traumatic 'overloading' and enough evidence of the techniques of brainwashing to know that more extreme meditation efforts do work in that way. I think it's a waste of time past a certain point where you can detect subtle thought and undertones of mind. It's a bit like developing an accurate gauging system which enables the practitioner to witness their own thoughts and moods as definined internal activity. Beyond that point practitioners will either continue to practice for no particular advantage, or move towards the permanent destruction of the border between self and world-few will do that, although they will often act as if they have and wax lyrically and poetically about the experience. Once a practitioner knows the subtle currents of thought and emotion then there is no more to learn. There is no mastery or refinement although I'm sure I will catch hell for saying so. That's why I say you should appraise the achievements and decide if it's become a habitual practice/part of the ego (I am the meditator, I am follower of the Tao etc), or are they headed towards self annhialation for real and then they should ask what is driving to do that because it isn't normal, it's self abuse, a mental version of self harming/ destruction. If on the other hand you just like to sit and do the meditate practices because it's pleasurable to do so then carry on doing so, it won't harm anymore than any other repeated activity.

Currently relaxing to Boilermaker from Jesus Lizard:

That's 'black flag' the band ? I only have one album.

Makes sense. Stars produce, so other things consume.

Workouts aren't a deliberate meditation. Work outs are workouts and the focus that goes with them is part of the work. There isn't any attempt to destroy ego, find emptiness or merge with the all. Many advanced meditators talk about the primacy of consciousness as being the aim of meditation. That's certainly not how we normally see the world, so this is an attempt to deliberately change that without questioning what that will do.

It's a warning could and should be applied to everything. From what is read in a book, heard in a lyric, written in tablets of stone or told by the greatest man in the world. Meditation, Trivium or the local paper we should apply the same critical thinking to what we shovel into our consciousness.

I don't. That's for the practitioner to decide how it fits with their practice. Bill Joslin seems to have a good understanding of many of the different styles of practice. I only know DM so that's my only direct experience.

It doesn't always lead there, just the same as most people can take LSD without any issue. It is more about the effect that the meditator is trying to achieve. It's not about decision making, it's about the concepts you use for decision making.

It didn't appeal, it was a bit over complex for me. It really only says exactly what most meditators say.

Ooh what are you flying manitou ?

Yes, always be aware of that. There again the garage mechanic asks you to cough up cash to put in the car. The mind control bit can be for more than just money. Sometimes it's just cult and power. Particular it's male gurus and Female students. Bill is as entitled to make money as anyone else and he suggests strongly that anyone should properly examine the motives of any teacher that is messing with mind. It's a pity parents don't consider that when they send their kids off to a group of strangers at a state school.

It's entirely possible and highly probable. The question should be 'do I want this'?

I think you are perhaps confusing what works and how something works. Make no mistake about it. If you want to lose your mind, then serious meditation will do it. That's what everyone's says they want and that's exactly what they will get. The Trivium isn't something that works in that way, it is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Meditation will give primacy of consciousness and the Trivium, primacy of reality. The first will absolve the practitioner of responsibility the second installs full conscious responsibility. The choice is not mine to make, maybe for some, the first option is where they want to be. I'm putting the yellow light on that's all. Just check it's really what you want, combine some reasoning with the meditation and ask 'what' is is doing and 'what' is it you are trying to achieve by it.

I don't think you have come to it. There are a lot of false starts in which it's possible to act out/practice what you are ultimately intending to do. You can skirt around and play at it, but, there is a point where I knew it had turned serious. It was at that point I wound down the practices trying to discover which one was causing it. It was the meditation.

Well, made of the stuff of the universe and not specifically stars, but I see where you are coming from. However, I should point out, that as every other object is also composed of the same stuff you may relate to a snail, earth worm or termite, even a kettle. So it may not be true that you can make stars, you can certainly make kettles which are more useful than stars for making a hot drink. You have converted star stuff into something that can be utilised which is far more impressive :-)

I took the course suggested by Gene Odening. If you look on the site there is an interview with Gene which has something like -start here. If you are interested beyond that then Gene can send you a study guide which points to course material/books. (I have it on file if you want, but listen to the interview first and see if it's for you). The recommendations of recorded lectures are by Peikoff and I was somewhat sceptical about using his lectures as I knew he was Objectivist and wanted something more neutral. In actual fact he uses an introduction to logic by Lionel Ruby which is a very straight textbook and sticks to it (adding the objectivist version to show the difference). It was cheap to download ($11) and there are 20+ hours of lecture material and a worksheet. I found it quite tough. I had first thought I would jot down a few notes and cruise through it, but in the end it took just over 3 months to complete (but I was trying to master it which I believe is a mistake ). I'm not inherently logical so I could feel a physical sense of gears grinding inside my skull.

That's just the PDF file. There is a full interview and commentary after on the website. The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years. In the following discussions he says that meditation is a useful tool to get to know how you think, and the subtle nuances of mood. I agree with that, it is exactly how it seems to me. He said that the positive effects are achieved within a few weeks-I think a bit longer is required from my own experience I would say 6 months/whenever the practitioner can detect the subtle flow of thought/emotion. There are several discussions on the scientific/medical testing of people during meditation and Bill has observed some of the trials and says they are not double blind tests and are flawed. I would say that most people would get faster results from studying the Trivium and of course that has a measurable educational value in terms of improved thinking. It's the improved thinking that throws out all the misery, dark thoughts etc and clears the mind on a permanent basis. However, I always keep in mind that I did meditate consistently for 8 years before starting the trivium and so I can't spilt the two, but it was abundantly clear that the trivium surpassed anything I had gained during meditation/mindfulness/self Inquiry by a long way. The issue with meditation is when it becomes intense practice, particularly under a teacher. It's literally brain washing. Even flying solo you can find the edge of the disintegration of self. I was reading Manitou's comments and wondered if she had reached that edge? However, the later replies to your posts re-assured me she had not reached that point and was more than likely 'acting'. A lot of esoteric practices can be 'imagined' (like you did as a child when you wore a cape and pretended to be batman), so the results are more 'acting out happiness/ success'. There is nothing wrong with doing that, particularly if it helps act a happy person than a depressed one. Yet, serious practice can be harmful. The disintegration can become real. A teacher will tell you not to fear this edge point and to 'let go' or some such thing. Anyone who teaches that point will know it and hospital wards are full of people who got to that point without meditation, but by trauma/psychosis. They give up self responsibility completely as their minds just won't cope with the stress/ emotion. The answer is to use meditation but with care-regard it as a 'get to know me better' casual thing, than trying for a joining of the 'all'.

I'm seeing the fractals in the plants directly-or so it would seem. I think it might be a bit like the matrix in which we recognise essentially the same patterns that make up our own brains and ultimately the way our consciousness works. Everything is resonance.