Karl

No they are not. They are risking capital that is deferred consumption. They do this in the hope that the business they run will be profitable ( income vs expenditure ). There is no guarantee that the outcome of this outlay will produce any income. Most businesses fold within 2 years. Most entrepreneurs have 5 or more businesses fail before they get one which runs profitably. Every business requires debt for several years before breaking even, never mind running a profit. Capital can maybe understood by the idea of a locked box containing £100 dollars. If you had to bid for the key to the box what would be the maximum you would go to $90 maybe as high as $99.99 if you could justify the time to make a cent. Now, same box, same money, but this time you won't get the key for 5 years. Now how much would you bid ? Yes, the market is not only a super intelligent mechanism, it is the only super intelligent mechanism. Billion upon billion of transactions ever minute of every day create the price. This is termed the price discovery mechanism. It's bloody wonderful and something that no one person or group controls, it's completely organic and natural. It's amazing. Think of any product you buy to see just how many people are involved in its manufacture and each stage is determined by market demand.

Or know you are and think you are not.

Someone asks what ego is and I give my answer. I know all the answers to the questions you ask me about myself. I know there are commonalities of thought-if not definition. If you say you are struggling to ride a bike, then I think back to when I had the same difficulty and try and suggest how you might overcome that difficulty- it may or may not be helpful. So, it's really you that must decide on the value of those answers.

My abilities don't extend to mind reading.

There is a huge list somewhere on the web showing the destruction of jobs and businesses due to recent min. wage hikes in some states. We are all the poorer for it. Minimum wage is no use if no one actually gets paid it. Walmart are laying off a thousand jobs already.

Firstly, the entrepreneur risks his capital and gets paid last. The worker gets paid first with no risk to his capital. He gets paid regardless of the business being good or bad. His profit margin is 100% compared to a fraction of that for the business owner. How would you feel if McDonald's just shut down ? All stores boarded up and the workers out on the streets ? The free market it just voluntary trading. Everybody pays what they believe something is worth. It is this system which correctly allocates scarce resources-including labour. It's not some ideology or invention by some capitalist goons, it's just how we trade with each other and decide value. Have you ever wondered why Gold and Silver became money in the first place ?

'If there was a better option then they would take it' Companies have to compete with other companies for labour in the market place, just as they do for space, energy, raw ingredients. They are also competing-as the worker does-for customers. People who eat in McDonalds are not generally the wealthy in society so competition is tough. There are plenty of other fast food companies competing for the customers money, there are also hundreds more companies competing for that cash that's aren't in that business. The biggest opener of my mind was the understanding that everybody is not fixed. The company owner is customer and employee of the customers. The employee is simultaneously boss, customer and employee. The customer is boss and employee. Each person swaps position. This is the market place.

I tend to equate good answers with those I do understand and at present I'm struggling :-)

I'm not sure I understand your answer Kubba ? 'Good for the befinning' ?

That's your decision. If you wish to pay more than market rate then something else must give. Perhaps you employ fewer people and automate. Maybe you buy cheaper ingredients, reduce size of meals, have less pleasant stores. Whatever, you have to balance your business model. If you fail to do this adequately the market will punish you. Ultimately your business may fold and all the employees are out of a job. These really are basics. If you aren't at this level then it's going to be very tough going to discuss much beyond this.

How do you think they decide on the rate of pay ? How is it that those that work for them voluntarily accept that rate ? Why don't they go elsewhere ? How is that a McDonald meal costs whatever it does, or the materials they buy are so much ?

It IS what the market thinks they are worth. Believe it or not McDonald's, their suppliers, customers, workers and managers are ALL the market. We are the market, you are the market. It's your choices and decisions that are ultimately responsible for the price of labour at McDonalds-even if you never ever eat at McDonalds. Once you decide to interfere with this market rate, then the market gets skewed and then unintended things happen. Same thing when the bank lowers interest rates artificially, money is cheaper than it should otherwise be. The risk of gambling on stocks becomes less and malinvestment ripples out into the market as people buy assets, houses, stock buy backs, old cars, paintings etc. instead of production there is asset speculation. Everything that interferes with the market does this. If a minimum wage was the answer to poverty, then we could have solved Africa's problems years ago. Just create every job at a living wage.

Even if I was thinking that I was, then I am. Let me ask you a question. What are you trying to get to ? Forget for a moment the complexities of enlightenment and all that good stuff, but what would really satisfy you ?

How is it possible to to be anything else ? The problem- if I can call it that-is thinking you aren't.

And as if by magic: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2015/animas-river-spill-08-06-2015.html who needs rogue businesses damaging the environment on the backs of state privilege when you can cut out the middleman and the state can just get on with doing it in a more direct fashion. I should mention here that the fairly recent catastrophe with the oil rig which caught fire and then spewed millions of barbells of oil into the sea, was a direct result of the state forcing the BP to go drilling in the deep sea instead of closer to the land. This deep water operation was not considered to be any more hazardous than shallow water drilling so regulations remained unaltered.

The 'bad guys' are the ones wanting to create unemployment through minimum wage laws. A company doesn't pay people to give them a comfy life, it pays them the market rate which is that which the entire market has judged as the correct price for their labour. Just as you pay the market rate for a car, I'm sure you are not considering the living conditions of the salesman, the garage owner, mechanics, advertising agencies, car manufacturing company staff etc etc which go to make up a car sale. I expect you might shop around, weigh up the advantages and prices before shelling out your 'hard earned' cash. You do this every day on groceries and other commodities and never bother to wonder if the owner of the shop is struggling to make a living.

Can't stand the heat stay out of the capitalism

Your negative agreements 'I'm not opposed to capitalism' or 'nor do I think running a business makes a person evil' pretty much caps it. There are no attempts at positivity. I'm not opposed to communism-as long as I never have to live under it. Those that like it-best wishes. It was clear to me several posts ago that the description Brian has formed is quite correct. You aren't going to reconsider anyway, you are clearly Marxist and proud of it. Capitalism is fine as long as it's controlled by the state/people and production is shared out.

I think he pretty much nailed it.

That's really just split thinking. You are you, there is no one else. Are you the master that is away, or the ego that has staked a claim ?

My answer to that is as fundamentally flawed as the question. Say you cut a big chunk out of your finger, are you any less you than you were previously ? So, we are never less than pure ego and that's the problem. We think we are.

Not a good analogy though, because a vehicle is quite clearly a product of mans Ingenuity and an ego is mans ingenuity.

Aren't you describing false self rather than pure ego ? It's easy to think that one should be a certain thing, or type of person and mixing up what they do/believe they are with who they really are. That's self deception and its treatable, the ego remains intact and untainted.

Try seperating things and you will discover it isn't possible. Man is man. Why go anywhere to agree with everything ? The philosophers that put forward the idea of sacrifice were every built political. Anyone suggesting that others should change to their way of thinking are political. However, isn't this thread about the definition of Ego ? I was merely commenting on the idea that it should be sacrificed before we have defined what it actually is. No good chucking out a piece of coloured glass for want of knowing it was a ruby.

Good question :-) I've waited an age for someone to ask that. Interesting that you began by thinking in terms of sacrifice. That is undeniably the ultimate aim of any ruler of men. To believe that they should sacrifice their identity for the good of the state, fatherland, king, queen, president. If it is to be sacrificed then it must be identifiable in the first instance. Why would anyone wish to sacrifice their identity to another ? Let all men sacrifice or none at all.