Karl

How can I answer your points, they are based entirely on subjectivity ? I can say only, yes that's what you think, yes and that's what you think and yes to that as well. We have no objective plain on which to begin discussion. I cannot disenfranchise you of your right to think whatever you might want to think. I cannot challenge anything in your subjective constructions. They are yours to think and your alone. I respect the objective reality of you having those thoughts. I accept the objective reality of you being as you are-although it pains me somewhat that you are so prepared to dismiss what you are ( reality does not impinge on emotion ).

Well you see bars of a cage, but you don't know on what side of the bars you are. All IS reality. Even the subjective. You have creative entrapment. Creativity is our nature. All action comes from it. It is impossible not to be creative. Emptiness is just another conceptual subjective error. When do you consciously know emptiness ? Have you ever known it to be true-conscious emptiness ? yet you imagine it for Ananda. Then you pull up another subjective conceptual error by implying solidity of mind-motionless mind, fixed mind ? How would I even write these words Nickolai ? How would I read your words ? Where does this pendulum you always mention arise ? Emptiness-Solidity. Subjective-objective. This is what your mind is attempting to fathom. You read the words this way and that way, half a pendulum swing. Half wisdom. The mid-point in your subjective view. Seems like balance doesn't it ? Halfway between solid and empty. This is the logical fallacy of the false mean. It even has a name. ;-)

Test for yourself. I cannot show you. It is you that reads only half the words. I'm minded only because you ask, otherwise I'm doing what needs to be done.

You are thinking subjectively, thinking in terms of subjective problems. It is you that adds 'explanations' to reality. I see only reality. I am only self there is no other that thinks 'explanations'. Self-reality. You are thinking of logic as 'seperate'. How many texts have told you this separation is an illusion. 'You are not the body' tells you that. Because you think subjectively it is impossible for you to understand the meaning. Are you the arm ? No are you the head? No are you the logic ? No. All things equal. No separation. Logic is part of the whole, but you cannot see it. It is reality in and of itself inseparable. Subjective is the objective reality of the creative/emotive. Trust one over the other. You choose which ? I cannot choose for you, but you are free to do so this very second, but your mind is clouded by doubts. Do what is required to clear the mind. Do whatever it takes.

It is an absolute objective reality that you believe what you have just written is it not ? If it isn't then what can you believe? You are lost in a subjective world and you are not free. Occasionally to see this is both saddening and maddening. It's like watching an alcoholic drink their way to oblivion.

What is the transition from dispirited to a positive outlook. Are you transforming ? We metaphorically flip a switch, but nothing really occurs, some chemicals, neurons connect perhaps. Subjective to objective is like that. It's a conscious choice. I have a reality addiction. I have made that clear. Logic is the naturally occurring human tool to ensure that real is real. Our reasoning powers can grow rapidly-so can our muscles in the presence of correct exercise, food and hormones. There really isn't any mystery to it-I know you are convinced there must be some great mysterious thing, but really, the universe, and our consciousness of it surpasses any subjective reality completely. You don't see reality as I do, only because you refuse to accept it and that's why you won't take the reality message. You have no idea how to take it, even if you wanted it. Instead you want a subjective thing that you can never have because it isn't real. Understand that the real is real only. As the Guru says 'tell snake from rope'. That message is entirely clear. Knowing subjective from objective is freedom. Before enlightenment chop sticks carry water, after enlightenment chop sticks carry water. Logically if we eliminate the commons then we get -nil. There is no enlightenment, or there is no reality. There is reality and therefore there is no enlightenment QED. It's a simple logical: Either enlightenment or reality Reality Therefore not enlightenment. If you know how to look it becomes obvious, but if you don't, then every puzzle has the need for a subjective solution. The 'enlightenment' is clearly and unequivocally a subjective notion. Sticks and water are objective, everyday realities. Therefore choose sticks and water over the subjective. Choose reality first, make it your goal to always be with it-as Ramana advised always be situated in self. That's what mindfulness really is, not some fuzzy trance, or staring at objects like a demented aquarium owner.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc We danced, it rained, therefore the dancing caused the rain. Just poor logic. However if dancing keeps the spirits up through a bad patch-then dance. There is no law of attraction, but there is human action. If we see a bike in a shop window and want it (emotional need to act ) then we find a way to get the money to buy it-we are always on the lookout for opportunity. This is where subjective and objective get confused. If it's seemingly possible to want something and then have something like the bike, then-our poor logic goes-why can't we find some form of action which will give us rain. What would have been better is to build a reservoir and irrigation system, dig wells etc, but in lieu of doing something practical let's dance.

We engage with reality, we are reality. There are physical laws of reality. We can seed clouds to cause rain. I know of no human dance that has a direct causal connection with rain, although there is always large scale causal effect-pretty chaotic super complex model.

Not 'different realities' but different perceptual differences for certain. Colour blind people don't see the same colours as those who are not colourblind, there are also cross perceptions where some see colours in music for instance. Reality remains. Not sure what you mean by 'no dimensions' ? Do you mean absolute dimensions ? A tree for instance is growing and so into shape and dimensions change. Heat applied to an object will reduce its weight and increase its volume. This doesn't indicate different realities, these things are part of that reality, we can specify these things. If we at sea level then water boils at 100 then we go up a mountain and the water boils at a lower temperature so we specify those things in a definition if necessary. Same with relativity, we just state the law if necessary.

I hadn't come across it. I new Lewis Caroll was a logician and had posed a selection of storybook style logic paradoxes- I hadn't known about Zeno.

I'm not 'for' anything but objective reality. I could not care less if the universe is composed of candy floss or hair cream. If someone believes that Tarot cards or crystal healing are valid in their life context that's fine with me. I told you I was like litmus. If you tell me that I must accept Tarot cards as being a true predictor of fortune than probability, or that a broken arm is better healed with a crystal than a plaster cast then I'm going to laugh.

No transformation, it certainly seems like there is a path, like going somewhere, passing things along the way and then, it isn't. It must be remembered that free will and choice has determinism based on emotional subjectivity, if that wasn't so, then we wouldn't act at all. It's like one of those dual fuel cars. Flip a switch and..the engine keeps on running just the same. Seamless. The thing is we have learned to stay mostly in that subjective realm for viewing reality-this is where we are as young children and into puberty. We are driven emotionally and then make decisions with more emotional subjectivity than objectivity. Nothing changes just goes from more subjective to more objective, everything else stays the same, I still don't like jellied eels and still love Pizza. 'Gather wood carry water'. End of suffering.

I don't, that's why I have a great piece of filtration equipment which gets used for checking objectivity. I don't believe everything I see, hear or read either until it's been through the objectivity mincer.

I think we have already done this already. Your arguments are completely based on logical reasoning sound or unsound). If you insist that your reasoning is entirely subjective then why should I even reply to you ? You are telling me you can't know what your saying is true. You need reason to construct an argument and the argument and thoughts have to be objective to survive in order that you can pose them. This is logic 101. The very base. Get rid of all the theory stuff and you are left with that one thing. If your arguments are all subjective then they are groundless, floating fantasies.

I haven't experienced a transformation. There is no ultimate. There is progressive learning that all. You are looking for levels that don't exist, you are as you are that's it. I tell you it's our education system that has bashed out all the good stuff, but brainwashing isn't permanent. We can learn outside of a strict institutional tyranny. The other day I was watching a programme. It was about primary schools. The kids were being taught to 'express' themselves. I ask, you, go into any home or park or playground where toddlers play and 'expressing' themselves is hardly an issue. They are bundles of emotional energy, screaming, crying, fighting, hugging, kissing, brooding. It's full on, non stop emotional chaos. However, do they exhibit a lack of objective critical reasoning ? I think it goes without saying they show absolutely none at all. They are wrapped in imaginative worlds, they go knocking into things, falling, running in front of cars, eating worms, swallowing pennies.

It's not meant to be. Do I really seem that arrogant and patronising to you ? I'm not dismissing it, I'm just saying that I don't particularly want to get involved in a heated discussion about something on which I cannot provide much commentary beyond saying it was your imagination.

Our bodies a mostly made of it. It's wrapped up in consciousness in the material sense. There are many other compounds and elements contributing to the whole. Logic is not 'feels' to be 'right'. It's the method we use to obtain objective information. It is neither right nor wrong. It just is.

Doesn't have to be, it's a choice. It might not be where you are, but it doesn't matter, either way is the choice you make, neither right nor wrong, good or bad. I didn't really know what I was trying to achieve, right up until the point in made no difference anyway.

You forget. I've been there. I didn't go straight to rational logic and objectivity. I didn't even know it existed and had I known, I doubt at the time I would have shown the slightest interest in it. Too early.

The thing is it isn't a case of right and wrong. It is how things are. This is very difficult to get across because we have been conditioned to think a certain way. Right and wrong has been with us since we entered primary school. A tick for right, cross for wrong. Red stop, green go. Try to think of it in different and more neutral terms if you can. What is true for you, is objectively true for you, even if the thought is subjective. So, it isn't wrong, it's just how it is. When it's different, then it will be how it is. See, it doesn't change. I'm not the teacher stood at the blackboard scowling because you gave an answer he didn't agree with. That is subjectivity, it has no place in reality. Don't let those emotions transfer-you know the ones in school don't you ?

The separation is within you, but it is only the illusion of separation. It then gets confused with objective perceptual reality and that can then create the illusion of there being neither inside or outside. Things get muddled up. It's part of a natural growing phase, just as babies struggle to separate colours and shapes. Unfortunately today's lifestyle and state education system has delayed/retarded this natural growth. It's like undeveloped sex organs. This is probably where all that stuff about the Chakras comes from. The state system is designed specifically to prevent the development of critical thinking beyond what is needed to function in a platoic social hierarchy. It is your birthright but you have been carefully trained to ignore it and utilise emotional intelligence. In other words, people are easier to control by the use of fear and reward. It's easier to get them to obey commands, to support war, to buy goods pushed by emotional advertising. You are very weakened. They have pulled out our teeth and claws. You won't want to believe that no doubt, but it's all in plain sight-just exactly where you won't ever look :-)

I'm just going to get grief if I say you are mistaken. If that is how it seemed to you then let that stand.

Well cool. I won't try and persuade you otherwise. If you think it's true, then it is true for you. Ive had all kinds of adventures in wonderland far too salacious for these pages. Good fun at the time.

I didn't sail back. No boat, no water, no motion. I never went anywhere at all. I never have. That was the illusion. I had to travel far enough to see that I didn't really travel at all. Physically of course I travel all over, but I am always who I am.

You can't help using logic, the issue is how well formed your logic is. You can't help standing on your legs, but if you don't work them or eat the right foods they will barely hold you up. Logic is the tool of pure reality when used properly. Enemy of logic ? Is it enemy of consciousness also ? We are physically bound with water, it is no enemy it is an objective reality. You have ascribed to water such things as you subjectively believe, but because of this you do not see it as I do. If you did, then there would be no requirement for pragmatism.