Karl

If you think the real world is subjective then your entire discussion is null and void. If you cannot know what is true in the world then your arguments can never have validity because you depend on objective reasoning in order to argue. You have essentially disqualified yourself from further discussion. Are you unable to see this obvious double bind ?

No, no. It's up to you to provide the hard evidence, it's not the responsibility of those living in the real world of things to disprove these theories.

I'm just saying you don't need to pussy foot around obliquely ( although forum rules would prevent that to some extent :-) ). I've never been shy of tough forensic questioning-indeed I always find it's the other guy that gets wound up and slopes off in a huff. I'm a big believer in grounding and so rather than incorporate esoteric exercise I simply go and do some chores, gardening, weights, walking, mountain biking etc. I did asanas for a year, but without proper guidance- I've concluded this is a singularly risky activity without an instructor and I'm not one for classes :-) I would rather do a few stretches and workout with weights or out in the mountains.

The problem isn't one of 'another layer'. There isn't anything revolutionary in accepting that we cannot yet see the mechanics of things, but it's when we begin mixing voodoo with hard science. The final arbiter is conscious awareness and the logic to define what reality by external sensing. If we then start saying that everything is driven by, or even interacts ( in a positive no mechanical sense ) conscious awareness, then we throw our ability to decide reality out of the window. In affect everything and anything can and does exist and nothing we thought we knew existed actually does. Our entire world becomes a big probability machine where nothing is ever determined. X does not come before Y. No [X is not Y] exists at the same time and the same space as [All X is Y.] I cannot logically deduce that man is immortal, or consciousness is some ephemeral, inter dimensional reality in a quasi real universe. It's complete madness. Most of this is based on the new age belief that has sprung up around the double split experiment. I don't think there is any mystery to the QS experiment at all. To me the particle is energy and therefore it's energy can pass through both slits simultaneously ( imagine a firefly emitting light in which the firefly passes through one slit, but the light from the firefly passes through both ). Energy react with itself. The universe of things exists because of nodal resonance and frequency harmonics and not because of consciousness. Consciousness has come into being in order to grasp the nature of the universe of things. Life does not evolve where there is no- thing. It's completely illogical to assume that it's the reverse. Lose consciousness and we are no longer conscious. Implying that the world suddenly winks out of existence at the moment we become unconscious is an exercise in superstition and not science. We just don't have this experience and we have direct access to self, because we are that, the ultimate backstop. I think we are getting onto unstable ground if we think passive conscious awareness is actually also both creating and being aware in the same space/time. That simultaneously its creator and receiver, then what the hell is the point in our power to reason ? Might as well chuck our minds and bodies away right now. It's just another cult ideology in which we will continue to live out our lives on some heavenly plane. It's better to shelve that, back up and start looking elsewhere because this is a dead end.

Oh the irony.

This guy says he is a scientist ? I think his reality is his need to make money selling books full of complete gibberish that people are desperate to buy. Maybe get a research grant backed by all the hoopla he created by writing the book. He expounds the theory that things aren't things. Yes, 7th grade science says that we see colour where no colour exists, but that's a conclusion with no point to it. It only matters what we can actually determine Not what we cannot. If I have no way of detecting or proving there is a green goblin right in front of me, then for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist, even if it did-I have no method to prove its existence. So, therefore why go around looking for imaginary, they will be infinite in number and complexity.

They never believed the earth was flat that's a myth. So, here's a thought. How do we know we aren't already in this state of disembodied consciousness in a multiverse already ?

When did science become conjecture ? Theory, test.

ah you think I'm unbalanced ? Just be straight, I don't bite :-)

No. My regular practices were AYP based deep mediation, pranayama, sanyama and self inquiry. However I also used a version of mindfulness, which might more properly be referred to as absolute surrender.

Nice piece here exposing the lefts complete and abject confusion about what capitalism is and where it operates: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/07/gary-north/why-the-left-always-gets-capitalism-wrong/

Another socialist puff piece confusing capitalism with right wingers. Either right wingers are pro free market capitalism/anti-protectionism Or right wingers are anti- free market capitalism/ pro protectionism But they cannot be both. One of these is fascistic in an economic sense.

Plato was an evolutionist and a persuasive one, it suited the rulers of the time, it suits rulers now and all men believe they are Gold and all others are lead.

I see your thoughts, but who is the seer of those thoughts ? Find that one.

Oh, you're that Ralis...

That's a big map full of pins right there.

Warren Buffets hair is kind of a nature preserve.

I'm going to give you a longish piece that we worked out as conversational hypnotic language. Within it are many of linguistic tricks necessary, but for positive guidance only. I must stress here that these things are dual natured. People use them as weapons-they are immensely powerful and I would ask that you don't use them for reasons of control. It will rebound on you. In the context of crowd and speaker-in any sense-the effect on those who speak the words are in equal proportion to those that listen to them. It creates a feedback that the speaker is not immune from. So, read this slowly, carefully, pace it and breath deeply and slowly to create a natural rhythm to the words: "I know you know...you know...it makes a lot of sense because I can see it in your eyes and that means you are changing many things on every level, all the time, simply because you have to...create new learnings, integrations and insights, and you can, can't you. People can....you know...that's the major difference between learning this way and as you sit there, looking at the screen, listening to the sounds around you're unconscious...can make all the integration it needs instantaneously or maybe even quicker than that. Do you realise this is something you can do? I...remember several years ago, being at a meeting, the speaker mentioned that a friend of his had worked with propaganda and his client had said that his budget dictated that he had to change in just one session and he said that's right...write the amount on the check...it's ok if your unconscious...knows that hypnotising hypnotist scan be difficult so speaking to you as someone who knows it can be easy ...does it" Now compare and contrast with Obama's speeches, particularly think of the intended pauses that settle the mind of the listener and prepare you to listen more intently to the important next word. Some words are spoken as command words, 'low' and some as self questioning doubts 'high'. It's a snippet, but you will notice similarities with political rhetoric. Now, as Morpheus said " do you want to know ...what...it....is" ? More importantly, do you wish to know how to defend yourself from it. You must know the weapons and learn the mental parries. If people are interested I will post a document which contains the first steps to the Trivium and Quadrivium. This isn't easy stuff, but very worthwhile. You will know what has been kept hidden from the mass of the population for nearly 5000 years. It isn't enough to post examples. That is like showing a weapon that you are unfamiliar with and it won't help you to defend against it unless you know precisely the opponents utilisation of it.

Just pick up any of Obama's or Janet Yellens speeches. I hope you realise where you are headed with this :-) I have promised myself never to use these methods knowingly in any language. You should be aware this is an ancient craft. Some things that you might describe as propaganda are just straight communication. Some effective work doesn't even require words, just pictures, sounds or pauses. This has been my work for the last 10 years. I said it's a craft, but it's not one that is simply regurgitated onto paper, it's experiential, you need to learn the methods. You could read a speech on a page and it would be ineffective at doing much at all. It is the inflections, pauses, tone, body language, pace and pauses that sell it. You need to learn pacing for instance. This is where the speaker must connect with the audience by leading and pacing until the dominant characters in the crowd are brought into alignment. Janet Yellen is an example of the new breed of techno propagandiser. She speaks both to men and machine. The algobots of the trading floor are sampling her text both directly and through the media. Her latest prepared statement talks of interest rate rises. To the casual listener it sounds very much like she intends to increase rates and yet again appears to be a kindly old lady looking after her grandchildren who won't hurt anyone unnecessarily. Her entire persona and style have been chosen as propaganda. She has to look, inoffensive, caring, wise, cautious, but also tough, fair etc. You can get me to talk for hours on this subject.

Ramana :-) now there was a sly old fox-a real trickster and most intolerant of fools. Character/nature sits on an underlying shared nature of the universe like cream forms on milk. I'm not sure linking is accepted. I haven't read the forum rules, but I suspect like others, linking for gain isn't acceptable. I shall PM you.

I'm long passed it now. At the time I was dealing with exactly the same thing and thought I would find resonance, but really I found Jung and I as two addicts sitting on a park bench. It wasn't helpful. It was re enforcing to a degree. I wrote my own book which approaches the idea of depression from my direct perspective as did Jung. I sprinkled it with anecdotes to give it a frame of a real life-lived. LOL -which appeared to be what most people enjoyed about the book-the philosophy and yoga practice, nah not so much :-) . As my voluntary editor said to me 'Dickens is more popular than Kant for a reason'. Sometimes all this stuff we practice, read and whatever-for me at least-felt like being in one huge battle that I was caught up in. Jung was just another comrade sharing the war with a fellow sufferer. Some suffer more than others. Jung suffered as I did. It didn't help me that he did, we gazed into each other's eyes and saw reflected torment. I didn't need any more of that, we were peas in a pod. I certainly wouldn't have taken my work on the road at that point, but Jung wallowed in it, I couldn't and it wouldn't define me. I'm out of the battle now. There was really no war but that which I made for myself. It was my war; my mud, blood, bullets, fury, pain and suffering. All that was needed was to recognise it for what it was and then stop fighting it.

Is this about language tricks or 'propaganda' ? I'm not sure there is an adequate definition for propaganda as it's now used as a perjorative. Language trickery though I have many examples and can construct them. Hypnotic language is particularly interesting and I use that when writing fiction. Shakespeare was a fine user of language tricks, but they used them as punchy in jokes back then. Anyway. One of my favourites-though if you get on any train, bus or metro you can find many examples once you get your eye in-is by the milk marketing board who were trying to come up with a punchy slogan about the 'free range' nature of dairy herds, over the confined nature of some beef ranches. "We put cows in space" It works on an amphibolous level and equivocation on the the word 'space'. Fantastic bit of work, masterful.

It's widely used in rotating machinery and in called a rotary encoder these days. Same thing but it can detect degrees of movement and opposing rotation. That's for the engineering types of which I was once one.

There is an analogy in there waiting to come out. The platter is 'physical' movement and the light is reacting to frequency. I think that this idea of stillness in motion is close to what you are implying, but not the thought 'my mind is now silent' because that clearly conflicts with reality. Some of these arts were significant in combat. China, Japan and India combined religion, spiritualism, aesthetic, natural elements into there practices. Yoga movements were integrated into Indian warrior training to improve flexibility and many of the moves are named after fighting positions, attacking animals, balanced objects or permanence. Many here will perhaps relate to playing an instrument, race driving, motorcycling or some other activity where all of sudden they are not there. I've experienced them in very rare moments, probably 3 or 4 in my lifetime. So is 'stillness in motion' meaning literally that ? Bruce Lee certainly typified and practiced that philosophy. Kung Fu turned fighting into a spiritual exercise and a way of leading ones life.

Touché.