Karl

Because when it comes down to it, the philosophy is that of force. Violent people masquerading as peaceful. They don't want freedom unless it comes with a collar and chain. The venomous spitting of the transvestite on newsnight who called Starkey 'an old white man'.

Women were not allowed to be actors during Shakespeare's era. All women were boys dressed as women.

Political power is predicated on a degree of financial stability and peoples acceptance of the status quo. Britain leaving the EU creates big waves in both of those predicates. The EU was already tearing itself apart, but, until one piece actually splintered then it appeared a cohesive whole. It could have been Greece, or Ireland, but it was one of the big four and that will not go unnoticed. The EU may fracture a lot quicker than people assume, it might be a matter of months, or even weeks before another country fires up article 52.

I mean that though the US people aren't aware of Brexit now, then circumstances will make it a more prominent event. Like a tidal wave that begins across the world in a place few have heard of, eventually, when the wave hits the shores of the continent people quickly become aquainted with it origin.

We hadn't heard of the sub prime crisis.

I wonder if that's the end for Hilary Clinton ? Knowing that it can be done and us being done by others is a great boost for any left field campaign. Obama's abortive intervention in the UK referendum might well be the key to Trumps victory.

They lied to the people, they continue to lie to themselves, and consecutive British governments have lied to the British population about their real intent. Lies within lies within lies. Britain should never have been part of it. I suspect that bigger wheels will quickly eclipse Brexit. Central Banks on the run and the USD in free fall.

I feel closer now, with greater empathy for those still trapped in the EU nightmare. I wonder how we could help them claim back their lives from the gravy train bureaucrats, lobbyists and corporations.

And there would be many more getting a start had it not been for EU 'workers rights' and work related tax payer schemes.

If you could get the qualification and there were places available. Most of us weren't academically inclined and got low paid jobs or apprenticeships.

The opposite. For the older it is a chance to help the young. Staying in the EU is better if you are older.

If you had a house down South and it increased rapidly in value, you still only had a house. If you wanted to move into a less desirable area then you could release a bit of equity, but that has always been true. You are looking at this upside down. You should be asking why house prices increased so rapidly (and that was happening prior to increased immigration). The only 'generous pensions' were in the public sector. The rest of us got nothing and our private pensions and savings have been crushed flat in order to boost house prices and provide cheap credit to home buyers. Those that did quite well were the earlier generations, but then they didn't have cheap credit so had to save for everything. Houses were cheaper because loans were expensive and difficult to get. That meant that saving was valued and banks paid decent interest. Any potential homebuyer needed a salary which was a third of the cost of the loan, they also needed 10% minimum (often 20/25%) deposit and any mortgage lender would scrupulously check all outgoings to ensure the lender could pay. Often we moved into our new houses with some bits of secondhand furniture and packing crates for tables. Our so called 'free' university education was strictly rationed by numbers and merit. Far fewer of us took further education because we weren't sufficiently academic. Only the brightest went to uni and they took professional qualifications. There were more jobs, but then the pay was lower, the working conditions worse, there was no maternity/sick pay/minimum pay/tax credits/child care and all the rest. That meant that low pay jobs were more plentiful and people could get on the employment ladder and work hard to succeed.

I didn't mean the voters, I meant the crap about free university, cheap houses, high wages and financial stability because of the EU. Older people got an education and were told that they should work hard, pay their taxes and would be looked after by the state. Then we got shafted, as did the young.

Eh ? Were you living in a different Britain ? I was there.

Remember George's 'punishment budget', Obama's 'back of the Q', Junkers 'no more reforms and no concessions for the U.K.' Mark Carneys 'recession'.

Notice we haven't heard from Osborne. I have outlined the possibility that the central banks will bash the pound until people scream, then George will appear as the saviour who will keep us in the EU. The establishment has too much power and money tied up in keeping things as they are, they aren't going to slump off into a corner, they will want to lock the people inside a barn and set it alight.

You know my view of political parties. I only want them doing little but upholding the law of the land. There is therefore a requirement for all unions to begin considering independence and that also requires less political party consensus. It's all been very good for the metropolitan elite, but since Thatchers era, there has been a complete marginalisation of personal sovereignty by soft tyranny, this has a had a terrible impact on the ambition and living standards of the majority. After several years fighting various campaigns I see leaders come and go, but I always hold the same course. I would be as suspicious of Boris as I would of anyone else. Anything leading to less Government I welcome, any attempts at grasping greater control I will fight. I want to deprive the state of the oxygen it needs to grow and hold it on the very margin of life support. My efforts certainly don't end because of this unlikely outcome, it's a nice bonus and I will enjoy it, but thats all.

She governs 5 million people out of 71 million. Scotland have had it far too much their own way considering their numbers and the Barnett formula that makes them far wealthier than they deserve to be. That said, I welcome them voting for their independence from Britain if they feel that is in their interests.

:-) I welcome it.

The hard work begins. I have no doubts that we have a long way to go, but we will emerge the better for it.

After 4 years of campaigning......thank you Britain.

Yes, done the same. Saw a chap in town, long grey hair, pony tail wearing an IN T. Did you see Will Self last night ? The epitome of the leftist metropolitan elite, the disdain and contempt he had for those outside the metro bubble of London was palpable. It definitely reminds me of the wealthy Romans who poured scorn on the poor and the barbarian hordes, right up to the point when the barbarians were welcomed into Rome by those same poor who wished the Roman elite vanquished. As the young black woman standing beside Will said " you need to get out of London and see for yourself". "Oh" with the self satisfied air of a weary intellectual bored of hearing from the unwashed scum "I talked to a builder working on my home. You can't get anymore down to earth than a builder". The black woman looked at him incredulously and replied " a builder in London ? Will, you need to go to Stoke, or Leeds" even Jon Snow said "I think you are out of touch Will, I'm talking about Sunderland, she's talking about Stoke and you are talking metropolitan London".

Sure is. I see Junker turned up last night to tell us that if we remain then we won't be getting any further reforms in the EU-that Cameron got all of everything and we won't get any thing else. So, all those 'it's better to be in to change it' believers, just got handed their arses.

Thats why I said that it's important to understand the philosophy that is held from the ground up. As you say, people do post chunks of work which supports what they believe and tend neither to critique, nor to fully understand the philosophy they are using. It's also true to say, of course, that philosophy only has meaning in its application. To quote a well known biblical phrase "you will know the tree by its fruits".

At least we know it isn't just a few back benchers now. The leave campaigners have really made a mark. I'm not certain exactly what will happen 'in' or 'out' regarding future politics. I knew nothing about the leave campaign side other than Boris, Gove, Carswell and IDS. What is heartening is the quality of the women from both Conservative and Labour. Kate, Gisella and Angela have been stars. I didn't enjoy the shouty, lectern thumping of the remain side in last nights debate. Can't see how that can come across anything other than bitter, angry negativity. Leave gave us calm, hope and optimism; remain gave us aggression, accusations, insults, fear and depression. I feel that several of these politicians including all of UKIP will, in the event of a leave vote, act as the watchdogs on our behalf. There has been too much invested for it to be otherwise. I also think this election has opened dialogue and people's eyes. It's brought more people into the sphere of political discourse and that must be a good thing. If it is a vote for remain, then every new regulation, law, or change will be met by far greater protest than it had previously. Whatever happens politics is changed for ever.