Karl

Trade with Europe won't cease. It won't even change at all for two years. We can accept the trading rules as they are and pay the maximum WTO tarriff and overall it will be less than we pay now and we would be free from the political union. My guess is that when we leave, the entire thing will begin to rapidly break up. It's a foolish kind of project based on hubris and arrogant assumptions. If we remain it will take slightly longer to collapse, but then we will have dragged our country into a darker place than leaving now. The simple fact is, for me, if I had to pay a few hundred pounds a year not to be in the political union then it would easily be a price worth paying. For me the economic argument doesn't stack up and I'm not at all concerned about the ability of entrepreneurs and innovators to carry on producing, trading and employing in a global arena. The sovereignty argument far outweighs the economic or even the immigration argument-even though they are linked. When the EU began, countries were much more tarrif based, but over the years these Tarriffs have fallen away and the purpose of the EU customs area has vanished. The EU has gone in reverse, it has ceased to function in the way it was meant to work and has become inwardly and outwardly protectionist whilst the rest of the world rushed passed it. It's like paying for a state TV license(aka BBC) now that the world is streaming subscription services. It's unsustainable in the short run. That means we are left with a monolithic monster fighting to keep and expand its power into other areas in order to keep itself alive. It suits the crony party that has gathered around its tax funded frolics, but is no longer useful to anyone outside of its public funded largese. It is more like an extended monarchy that has not realised its time is up and continues to act as if it has a purpose.

I'm curious, not bothered. I'm also an optimist and a pessimist, but there is no contradiction there, I know that I can win, or lose, which is realistic. How your life runs has nothing to do with your holding contradictory philosophies. It's perhaps that you haven't realised or don't wish to concern yourself enough to resolve the conflict-which is evasion. Evasion is usually the result of a fear of some aspect of reality. It's a bit like an alcoholic or drug user that knows that their habit is harmful, but spin a tale to justify their continued consumption. Of course you aren't harming yourself in such an obvious way, but you are harming your consciousness in a similar way but without the visible, physical damage. We all do this to some extent, it's the hardest thing to avoid, or even sometimes to see. You began the Tao for some purpose ? You were seeking some value I think. If it was the truth, then don't you owe it to yourself to resolve the conflict ? I'm not pushing, just asking out of interest.

I'm always hopeful and yet deeply pessimistic. I don't know if we will survive, I doubt it, but I haven't given up hoping for a better outcome. We have the potential for certain, but we seem to be frittering away our rationality, we appear to have abandoned reason for emotion, values for pleasure and ethics for pragmatism. When mans mind is his only tool for survival and he throws it away whilst immersing himself in anger, guilt and pleasure seeking with no regard to reality, then that doesn't bode well. However, hope springs eternal and grass grows through the thickest concrete and rust crumbles the strongest steel.

It's not a matter of believing. Do I think there is life on other planets ? Most certainly, indeed it's pretty much a no brainer. Though that life maybe only be a few cells. Do I think that there are developed sentient beings which have the capacity to reason ? This is a more difficult question and the probability decreases. This is because there are far fewer planets in the Goldilocks zone and fewer still that have the protection of a large satellite. We must also factor in timescale. The universe is very old and species may not have blossomed at the same time as our own. Finally, the universe is large, it is filled with trillions of planets spread far apart by millions of light years. As yet we have not discovered any way that we can travel even a fraction of the speed necessary to reach our nearest star. It isn't like looking for a needle in a haystack. It's like looking for one particular particle amongst every single particle on and in our own planet. We may never come across an alien race even if it existed at the same time as we do. Even if we set off to travel to a very good target using a mechanism that could achieve 99.99% of light speed, there is a good chance that the life may well have vanished by the time we get there and a good chance that humanity would have also vanished.

Yes, very easily. I haven't got time at the moment, but I will do so with the evidence to match.

We don't need a leader. This is your dependence on the state showing through. Governments don't create wealth, they like to pretend they are an indispensable part, but they are completely dispensable. I watched Chukka today saying how he thought business had 'contributed'. Jesus Christ give me strength.

I can ignore as many as I wish, particularly as they have all been resoundingly wrong on virtually everything. I used to attend the BoE business updates from 2005. They just got more ridiculous every month. The forecasts were so far outside their own widest forecast that they began to make jokes at their own expense. I don't require 'experts' DB. I'm a long way more informed and knowledgeable than they will ever be. I'm well versed in economics and I understand business and entrepreneurship having run several. Most firms are small to medium sized business which make up over 90% of the businesses in the UK and most of those are not represented by the CBI. Only 6% of our businesses export to the EU and of those, many report that it will make no difference. Nissan were one of the companies that said that they would pull out of the U.K. Should we fail to adopt the Euro. They expanded as a result of not joining the Euro. Now they are saying they are worried about leaving the EU-on current form, if we leave, they will double in size. My experience of youngsters is that they lack in many areas.

And now we know why young people choose to stay. The good thing is that the young are fickle and unmotivated. The last time I went to a polling booth with my wife I saw no youngsters under the age of 35. I'm disheartened with your opinion. Not because it doesn't agree with mine, but that you appear to have fallen for project fears scares regarding there being no plan for what a post Brexit world will look like. I wonder how that will work for Cameron in the event that leave triumph ? It's hardly credible for 50% of the Conservative party and virtually all of the Labour Party to start doing anything when they are so terrified of the future. The Labour Party appear entirely dependent on the EU to make every decision, so, as unelectable as they already are, they have tacitly admitted that should they get into power, then they woukd just stand around waiting for God or a resurrected Marx to tell them what to do.

Went out leaflet dropping in the area tonight. Had a chat with a few people busy watering their lawns. Initially they were a bit cagey when I asked them how they would be voting. Suprisingly, they were all for leaving. I picked the area as one which might be a big resistant to leaving, so that cheered me up a lot, particularly after reading Apechs opinion. What Inhave discovered to my disgust, is that it appears that universities and schools are pushing to remain. A friend of mine is a school teacher and told me how he had 'convinced the kids to vote remain'. I think we seriously need to look at institutional propaganda foisted on vulnerable children in public education and in universities which are pseudo private, but who's employees have a vested interest in persuading those they teach to remain.

He also says potential=non existence. So 'could' might well indicate that's what he means, but he is an inscrutable one is Mr MH

Where he is revered as the great Godhead.

They look and smell like politicians to me. They were picked by Cameron to lead the out campaign in order to avoid giving credence to UKIP and to prevent too much blue on blue destroying the party. There is a court action pending I believe. However, politicians can't tell you anymore than you can glean for yourself.

Everyone's an alien to Marblehead, but he didn't exactly say that.

Our minds aren't like that at all. We are born blank slates and then must choose every value beginning with our own lives as the primary value-we can choose and must choose to live or die. Measurement is relational. Accurate measurement is only required when we need to concretise a concept.

All bathrooms are sexless but not those that visit them. However this goes way beyond the single toilet in your wife's office-which is, if you will excuse me saying-an obvious straw man. Let's take female showering facilities at a school that your young daughter attends. At present the restrictions are clear and boys respect them. However, remove those restrictions and any teacher daring to question the validity of a male who identifies as 'gender fluid' would find themselves in court. The male doesn't even need to look male, he might even have a reputation with girls, but as long as he identifies as gender neutral he has to be allowed to shower with the girls without any form of supervision as this would also be regarded as unlawful unless it was regular for girls to be continually supervised-and that supervision could be equally by someone who also claimed to be Gender neutral.

The lady does exist. Sexual acts do exist. You do exist. History is full of instances of men and women having sexual congress. What you are talking about is actuality, not existence. Potential has basis in fact and reality. It is based first on some-thing and not no-thing. Why hold the contradiction when you know it to be one ? What do you get out of it MH ? I can understand someone who is ignorant taking that line, but you must be aware of the impact such a thing has when you are aware of the evasion ?

It isn't a radical change, its the EU that is the radical change. I don't owe you a thing, I gave you the facts and my opinion. A country is built on enterprise and not political meandering. Enterprise is the province of the entrepreneur who must make a reasoned guess as to the viability of his enterprise-he does not have it all laid out and even should his plans align at some point, the circumstance is certain to intrude. I did not say 'leave and everything will be all right' but you are saying 'stay and everything will be alright' despite direct evidence to the contrary. What's more the Brexiteers are quite right in not laying out a plan to fool the idiots in the same way the remainers are spouting doom and disaster. We already trade with Europe and the rest of the world, this trade will not alter in any way in the short term and after that it's anyone's guess, in or out. If we could predict the future that well we would omniscient Gods, but we are men and we must make our way the best we can. The freer we are the greater the opportunity. I think you know that is true. I think you are trying to justify your decision by blaming it on guarantees that no one could possibly give and a future in or out that no one can foresee. What we do know is fact- Europe is stagnant, dying, racked by political fracturing, overrun with migrants it cannot cope with and about to invite a Muslim tyrant to become part of the family. Can Britain do better than that-if I didn't think so I would be voting to leave.

You spelt it incorrectly it's B...u....d....w......e.......i........s..........e...........r

You should ask them for some tips :-)

I doubt there will be a specific UK shock except on the global market which is in such a mess of debt and lies that it's terrified of anything which might bring it all crashing down. The U.K. Government have been talking today about the drop of the pound, but the pound is actually up on yesterday against both the dollar and the Euro. Indeed, if you look at the charts it's at a post high since May. So it suggests the market is responding most favourably to news that the Brexit vote is increasing. I think our future out is very bright. The day we leave nothing will happen because we have a full 2 year window to sort out the finer details. We haven't got the Euro-something all the financial institutions warned would be financial suicide and luckily the 'leavers' prevailed over that debacle or we would have been well and truly screwed by now.

Whats the economic plan sans Brexit ? I mean we are doing so well being part of it and Europe is doing so well under it. I wonder who gets to pay for all this arrogance and hubris ? Have the remain campaign answered the question most of the electorate want to hear regarding control of our borders ? 350m a week is actually the low number. It represents the figure that is allocated to the EU, a portion of which is held back, but of the total figure that is sent, then the rebated amount is controlled by the EU who allocate the funds as they see fit, through an undemocratically unelected bureacracy. The rest is consumed as our 'contribution'. I don't know what's so difficult to understand. Gove is saying that if we left, then we would control all of that £350 million and could decide for ourselves what we do with it. I don't know why you think politicians will answer any question on the economy, they produce nothing, they trade nothing, they know nothing about business or employment. They sit in their little offices and sponge off the producers. Their 'trade deals' are to benefit certain industries over other industries, we don't require their help in buying things from other people in other countries, they are a hinderance to that function and not a help. There is no point in asking the institutions such as the IMF, BoE etc either, because they are politically biased- it's their plan so they are hardly going to say it's no good. We make our own luck Apech, the freer our hands the faster we work, the freer our minds the greater is the flood of ideas. Anything that shackles us, or limits us, detracts from productive effort. More rules don't make more wealth, they just benefit a select few and steal opportunity from everyone else. This is simple stuff really. If you can't get it then it would seem to me that you are determined not to get it. As I said before, maybe the EU is where your bread gets buttered and that is where your self interest lies. If you were really open to change and growth you would see what the EU is and want to leave.

I think you have swallowed the Kool Aid. The reason for European peace was NATO, it had zip all to do with the EU which only began with the single market. Being a member of the EU club is looking inwards, not outwards. It is a customs union that has turned into a political union. The USSR had one of those, lots of countries under one anti-democratic governance. Europe is fast becoming a back water and its member countries are busy tearing the political project apart anyway. Britain needs to look outward to embrace the entire globe and not be stuck in an antiquated 1950s collective which has no future. It was conceived at a time of smoke stacks, mass employment and relatively little labour mobility. The world moved on and the EU didn't. We aren't doing it, or ourselves any favours by getting in any deeper. Technology, connectivity, mobility have made a little customs block an anachronism in a modern world which Europe is no longer the centre. The necessity is now total flexibility and tarrif free trade with countries able to move their economies quickly-not be stuck with a mass of rules and regulations that turns racehorses into lumpen donkeys. Young people are unfortunately lacking in experience, historical perspective and a breadth of reasoned understanding-that's to be expected from the young because they are idealistic, but, once in a while, as they grow older, then they remember the advice of those older folk-funny how that happens ;-) I don't blame the young for feeling as they do, but they have not yet learned to appreciate what freedom costs and how easily it is given away.

What do you know about potentials without existence :-) that is the primacy of consciousness-that things manifest into existence within the light of consciousness. This is something you have strenuously denied time and time again. I'm amazed at your bravery in being consciously aware of holding on to two clearly conflicting concepts. Doesnt it concern you that you put your integrity and honesty at risk-that one thing will lead inevitably to another 'cause and effect'. ?

One beings alien is another beings neighbour.

There may well have been a Big Bang, but it occured within the universe, in whatever extent the universe existed. Something -the singularity-existed. This is what you have been arguing MH. That existence exists. That it doesn't require consciousness of its existence. Either something exists or it doesn't. That was the logic of your argument, so now, if you are to remain consistent to your reasoning, then you must see that this conflicts. Either your premise that existence exists is incorrect, or your premise about an origin of the universe is incorrect. Apply the litmus and banish self doubt. If you fall back on ' I can't be sure, no one can be sure of anything' then I will be mightily disappointed because you have been such an advocate of the positive case for existence.