Karl

That's a sophist view. It doesn't matter if it's changing, that's what you see and it's real.

Are you talking about Geldoff ?

I was born at a time when the world was arguing over the necessity for two speakers and it was thought that no one would buy into the new fangled stereo. The very first stereo records were mostly played on mono turntables and were plastered with warning labels requiring the customer to install a lightweight 'stylus'. 'Stylus' was a very high tech word. Those using it were accused of being bourgeoise and a bit snobby. Most of us used the term 'needle' because that's basically what we used. A chunk of sharp steel that was tolerated by the 78rpm mono records of the day. When cassettes appeared they were derided as inferior child's toys. Proper men owned reel to reel tape recorders. I still love those things with glowing VU metres and all the mechanical clonking and whirring. A cassette was such a poor kind of device in comparison. We should do the history of audio technology.

That's not what I asked. The universe didn't have a time figure 13.7 million years. That's mans measurement based on relative scales of the concept of time. Prior to man the universe was just a series of ongoing causalities. Gas bumped into gas, got hot, created a ball of denser material-I'm not saying this is how things were created it's just to show the process of causality. When man showed up we lived for a period, we watched night turn to day and the seasons change. We began to relate these things to each other, until we had a complete measure of a relationary concept we called time. Time is just our personal relationship to causal change. If everything was entirely static and our life span was not limited, we were effectively indestructible and we needed neither air, food, or water. Then we could not relate time to anything. We couldn't have a concept of time, we would have no past or present.

That's a fair comment. I was thinking that your definition said 'space is the thing that allows things to move around and bump into each other' I'm quite liking it.

I have difficulty understanding your argument. You are actually quite obscure in the Kantian tradition. Kant threw out reason.Then he went round and round the houses trying to avoid saying that this was the intention. He did not 'critique' reason. Instead he attempted to invalidate it through obscurity-bullshit baffles brains. I'm not unfamiliar with that technique as its used a lot in hypnotic script. However, as Kant had to base his theory on reason in order to provide proof, then I can simply take his work and burn it. His entire philosophy collapses because he is forced to use reason to validate what he is saying and then he uses obscurity to hide the blatent falsity of relying on something which he was attempting to deny. As soon as we say 'proof' we have to have concrete reality. If we can't know reality we cannot provide proof.

Thats true, but is it a good definition ? It is certainly a definition.

Not gas 'in' the car :-) substituting gas for space.

It is viewed concretely, how else could you view it. We can't view it as the pure abstraction. Some music does and some doesn't. I was talking of my personal experience with music I like and not a blanket 'good/bad'

I can't. No sense of smell, nada, nothing which doesn't help if there is a gas/petrol leak or a fire.

Then there isn't any space if it's all gas. What you needed was some gas in which to park your car and a drive in the completely space less gas of the prairie. :-)

'Perceived' doesn't need to appear as it is presumed that perception must have occured. Is space a 'measure' of distance ? Or of time or volume ? Aren't these all relational conceptions with their own distinct conceptual measurements based on ratio ? Objects and matter do occur, but because they necessarily define that relationship, so here you have broken the law of circularity-not always an easy one to spot, but you have defined space as itself. Big pat on the back for even attempting it because it really is hard effort. All my springs fell out the first time I tried to unsuccessfully define a sandwich. Took me 4 bloody hours. Shouting at the page 'it's two lumps of bread and a filling, how hard can it be'. Then someone helped 'it's a food' that the genus. Thumps head 'I knew that, I did, I knew that, but why the hell couldn't I think it'.

You mean perceptual errors. No, but then, like dreams you see you have a term for them 'hallucinations'. If I gave you LSD you would see a distorted kind of world. Most definitely it is perceptual error, but then you know something odd is going on, that reality has melted and you might be inclined to react to the distortions because you were impaired and could not determine what was reality. Luckily we don't all live in a perpetual trip, we are able to discern reality from hallucination because we have both concepts. Good question Wells.

DB you have restored my faith in my fellow Dao bum :-) I could argue the definitions aren't great, but they are valid. Interesting that time is mentioned as that is another relative. No ones mentioned 'music' which is wholly human activity which moves conception to a concrete perception. All art does that if it's good. Good music and good art can move you spiritually like very little else.

I can tell you and Jetsun aren't going to make it :-) Actually my wife loves beaches, Sun and swimming. I like to gaze at the view of the sunny beach from the balcony of a bar with a good book and an ice cold beer. She goes off with her beach towel and sun tan lotion and I read in the shade. Works brilliantly. I hate sand, I don't particularly revel in swimming, the salt hurts my eyes, the sand gets in places I don't want it and I hate being broiled alive like a lobster. Give me a waterski a speedboat, a sand yacht, paraglider or a big motor cruiser and I'm fine.

Horrible website by the way, full of pop ups which give my iPad grief, but funny.

Strictly speaking "an absence of obstructive contact' breaks the rule of negatives, by defining what space isn't and not what is is. Interesting though, I'd not heard that definition.

I do my best, even a judge gets it wrong some of the time.

LOL that would make an interesting definition. Water is the liquid by which we make a brew. It's definition would be rather narrow though as we use it for a lot more than making tea. It would be guilty of breaking the rule of equivalence by being too narrow. Another more subtle circular reasoning would be Water is the compound with two hydrogen and one oxygen atom. That being the description of water H2o

Even if it's unique it still has a category Stosh my man. It will fit into the category objects or entities. They aren't my rules, they are our rules, but you don't like rules, you are an anarchistic chaotic. :-) I didn't say you couldn't use comparatives, only that you couldn't just give examples. Hardness is fine if it is enough to determine its uniqueness. I'm not going to be picky about the definition you pick as I previously said. As long as you define it by the rules. I'm just the referee I'm not going to comment on the play.

How do you relate that to parking space, space between letters, open space of a prairie ?

Define diamond then, at least we can get started. Define it in truck driver terms so a thickly like me can understand what exactly a diamond is. Just pretend I don't know what one is. I saw one and it looked to me like a piece of glass, or quartzite. Then you say it's a diamond and ask you to define what it is and how it differs from glass or Quartz, or ruby, or Zirconium. What defines it in the neatest terms. Is all ice, water ? Don't other ices exist like carbon dioxide 'dry ice' ?

I think mine fell out somewhere back at page 100.

Can you point it out to me then as you clearly think it's independent of man. Just stop it with that foot I've got a nasty bruise developing on my cheek.

I'm definitely beginning to regret it. :-/ It's like a workman turns up at your house saying that he will mend the roof and then proceeds to pull the water taps off the sink unit. When I ask what he's doing he tells me he's mending the roof. When I point out that they are taps and nothing to do with the roof, he swears at me and tells me that I should shut up because I don't know fuck all about roofs. And hey I did try to get it back OT as I'm scared of her samurai wrath. I definitely had genuine intent but the gypsies came and started pelting me with space cakes.