Karl

There is no such thing as pure nothingness. Everything has an identity. Nothing is nothing. As MH has touched upon it, the definition of space is not an object definition (though it no doubt contains things. Space is the gap between things and it is measurable. So when we say space bends or stretches this is not the correct way to look at it. Space between object increases or decreases. You cannot bend a distance, but you can describe an arc due to gravitational effect.

As Chang said, I also don't expect Westminster to protect me, but at least parliament is in one place and -however authoritarian-is elected. We are also not as over run with immigrants as Europe. The EU can change the rules at any time, as Greece discovered. It's interesting that the youth of Spain and Portugal are migrating to the UK because there is nothing for them on the European continent. Luckily we aren't fully part of the EU and are therefore doing reasonably well. I noticed the Euro fell sharply against the pound once again today and the pound rose against the dollar-so much for all that 'uncertainty' causing currency problems. They say that financial collapse comes very slowly and then all at once. That is where the EU is headed and its rulers do not give a damn about anyone but themselves. They will drive Europe off a cliff and I want the UK as far away from the undertow as possible. If we vote in, we will be in all the way. When the EU goes off the cliff so will we. It's why the German finance minister is panicking and why, when questioned about his response to the UK leaving said ' I will cry'. Just look at who is supporting the remain campaign. It's the who's who of the same banking elite that took down the world in 2007. It's these same financial butchers who stand to lose by us exiting. They have so much invested in tax payer backed debt that they are terrified the bigger economies split up and leave them broke. These are the same bankers who skewed the figures to get Greece into the EU as well as the poor Balkan countries. The same bankers who are pressing Greece for more debt and more austerity. You had better hope they don't move on to Portugal.

You are happy with statism Apech. You can't see what is right under your nose. You are taking freedom for granted even whilst it is being systematically removed. What's the purpose of 'identity cards', phone records, Internet trawling, security cameras and rulers that you cannot remove from power ? What's next curfew and orange overalls ? You have to understand that the commodity is humanity. You don't always need to see the whips and chains, but they are there all the same. When will you call a halt ? Will you accept the cashless society because it's 'easier' because that's what the EU is planning, along with its own internal police force/security apparatus and army. All this whilst Europe is mired in enormous debt with economic stagnation, plus creating vast ghettoes of, poorly educated, anti-western, fundamental religious counter cultures to fill those corporate low wage jobs and frighten the rest into getting with the program. Voting out is a tiny punch in the eye for statism and its corporate masters. That's why you should vote to leave, because it throws a clog in their machine. They will soon get it out, but then it will open the way for millions of clogs which they can't stop.

Or anyone else's rational mind.

You answered that better than I could :-) I noticed it made his life 'easier' when dealing with the state :-/ Freedom is not having to think-let the state carry that burden eh ;-) When they allowed me to wear the yellow star they could better identify who I was, I couldn't be mistaken for anyone else. It meant I knew where I was going, which train I needed to take. I didn't need to stand around waiting or have to prove who I was. They put me on that train and took me to my new home.

Hey Apech, perhaps you tax efficient existence might soon change ? Courtesy of Guido Fawkes: "The EU is laying the groundwork for new, centrally planned National Insurance-style numbers for every taxpayer in Europe. The proposal was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last night, and chillingly calls for a ‘European Taxpayer Identification Number’ to keep track of every EU citizen. This is the European Commission text: “Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.” Brussels wants the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax… The report also calls for the EU to take over member states’ corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base, banning sovereign states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. This is a direct attack on sovereignty and attempt to create a new, centralised EU tax system… UPDATE: UKIP’s Steven Woolfe says: “If we stay in the EU, we will be forced to pay a European tax. Plans for an EU taxpayer ID system – effectively a new continental National Insurance number – demonstrates their real ambitions for further integration. They are laying the foundations for an EU tax system.”

The OP specifically asked if AYP was really that bad. I say it isn't any better or worse. It's pointless starting a thread about what I think Daoism is, when the very foundation on which it is based specifically states that it cannot be known. I might as well start a thread on my understanding of a ghost.

No worse than any other mysticism. The problem is the practitioner and not the practice. A spade is just a tool as is a dental pick. It is the application of the tool by the practitioner, in other words the mindset of the person choosing the practice. Mysticism is mysticism, there isn't a more or less powerful kind, the idea of 'power' resides in the person using it. A spade is no more powerful than a dental pick if your aim is to clean your teeth, but if you are fixing on digging a hole larger than a pin prick then the spade seems better. With any kind of mysticism the true aim lies shrouded (obviously) in mystery. You might choose the heft of a spade, over the the lighter weight of the pick, but that's arbitrary. Someone might tell you the pick is better because it is lighter or has a sharper edge and then you take to that practice. AYP advises that you dig one well and not to dig many. This again is arbitrary advice. AYP is suggesting that the practitioner is on a specific metaphysical quest to find water. One could equally advise that one should not try and clean the teeth with a spade. No mystic has a clue if it's well they are digging, teeth they are cleaning or any other such thing. The entire purpose of mysticism is to remain mysterious, to be a floating abstract unconnected with reality and having meaning only in the mind of the practitioner but without reference except for the outward metaphysical action of practice. From that point, AYP is very much the same as Daoism, only the practices vary.

Shoes and handbags-the marital arts.

I was convinced at the start that it would be remain 70/30- 60/40 and I haven't really changed my view. However I'm hoping, if it looks like the polls predicts a big win for remain, then it might make the less interested voters stay at home. Certainly all the leavers are charged up to vote out and that might mean it's closer. I don't put any faith in polls. I will keep handing out leaflets and explaining my view point to anyone prepared to listen. When it's all over on the 23rd I will cast my vote and have a cold beer. On the 24th we begin all over again :-) either to prepare the next referendum or to make sure the greasy piggy doesn't find it easy to wriggle his fat pink body out of the agreement. Pol pot year one as we used to say in sales :-) you aren't even as good as last years sales, only this years counts.

Can you explain why it appears to be expanding ?

You say that with such confidence.

In a sweet factory. :-)

It's rather a side issue for objectivists. Philosophy drives science and science does the empirical metaphysical work. If a scientist goes looking for ghosts and believes they have found them they must adequately explain the connection between this and that. An experiment of this type is like that. It says nothing about the nature of consciousness or how consciousness reacts with photons, or explains the duality of the wave/particle. It simply creates more questions than it seeks to answer.

We also already prosper outside the EU. This is what I'm saying. Luckily we never lost the pound, we have our own central bank and and an immensely powerful financial sector. Splitting from the single market isn't a calamitous change, the trading will carry on regardless of what the political elite want to do. Eventually it will be worked out in terms of a deal, but we don't need any deal to continue trading and any subsequent trade deal (if we decide to have one). British services and products are world beating. Globalism isn't something to be feared, it's a necessity. We need to accept it and stop this ridiculous introverted small minded protectionism in a dying customs union. World Government gets closer with a federal EU, but, as we are seeing, it plainly is unworkable. Just as the USSR and China failed because people need freedom to thrive and Governments need thriving people so they can become parasites. An unproductive, unhealthy host is lean pickings for the power seeker. As Britain already complies with all the EU regulations and all the financial and trading networks set up and operating I don't think it would take much to untangle Britain at all. Those that are worrying about 'untangling' are likely those who are benefitting from the EU at other's expense. People always start trying to prove they are vital when redundancies beckon-particularly in the hierachy of layered protection the has expanded in any bureaucracy. They will make a massive fuss and the Government itself is unhappy about trimming itself in any way so it makes a big fuss about the difficulty and expense involved. Think of all the little favours and leverage that are involved in civil service positions. Lots of privileges and perks which the civil service will want to find new niches for to prevent any bad blood.

Add some starburst and a Milky Way for extra bang.

Whoever gets in they are shit, but at least we can vote them out in order to get another lot of shits in. However, if we have voted to leave it will concentrate their minds in a way that stops them being quite as cavalier. Did you watch last nights newsnight ? There was a woman from Norway who represents people who want to leave the single market completely. They were also told if they didn't vote to join the EU all sorts of terrible things would happen, the elites spun up the fear machine to predict currency collapse, economic destruction, higher prices etc, but instead of all that they prospered. The Government forced them to adopt the single market and have been trying for 15 years to join the union, but now, with the terrible state of the EU, many are now looking to reject the EU completely including the single market. So, even though we always hear that 'the Norway model means accepting....etc', in fact Norway want to get shot of all of it.

Or I just concentrate my awareness on the worm and it falls off the hook.

1) Except we will become a full member of the EU once we vote to stay in. What Cameron didn't announce was what he gave away. In exchange for 'not closer union for Britain' he gave away a veto on changes to the EU itself. We have lost the power of further negotiation because Cameron either never had any intention of us leaving the EU (hence his overheard comment to Merkel that after the referendum he will dock the UK into the EU), or he is such a useless negotiator that he fails to understand the element of time. Hence, if the EU changes dramatically, then Britain will be forced to make changes in order to continue trading. In effect, a veto on ever closer union is like a man who needs a car, waving a piece of paper in front of the dealer saying he doesn't 'have' to buy a car. 2) the effects of NIRP are widely understood by any economist, the exact sequence of consequences are less predictable but the outcome remains the same. If you understand time preference-that people prefer a commodity today than wait until tomorrow then this forward time preference has a value. The result is the destruction of capital formation through saving. Capital formation is the primary necessity for production. It is the driver of productive wealth creation. Break that link- which NIRP does and you have too many people chasing too many goods/assets and the price of goods increases rapidly and the value of the currency collapses. 3) OK 4) Right and left extremism are on the rise. 5) I was pointing out that Schengen is idealism. The reality is that these countries don't work together with open borders. As this is a key plank of the EU along with its failing currency and rise of extremism is the internal destruction of the EU. It's slowly pulling apart and, as it does, the bureaucrats and vested interests will plough ever increasing amounts of tax payer money trying to save their dream. I don't want Britain to be part of that inevitable collapse, or the long drawn out economic and social destruction which will precede it. Indeed there was some role play thing on newsnight where the guy playing the EU made it dead clear that they had no intention of giving Brotain a deal, because that would set a precedent for every other country. 6) Greece is a symptom of 5) it will herald more trouble on successive weak southern/Balkan economies. Greece shouldn't never have joined, as we shouldn't have joined, however, at least we are in a strong position to depart, poor old Greece is trapped. 7) MEPs are representatives of each country, they can speak and vote, but they have little power to speak of. This is how the EU was set up. It was designed not to be transparent or to be tampered with by the people. It is to give the illusion of sovereignty but is entirely a top down and anti democratic. This was to prevent any state ( meaning Germany or France) getting its hands on the power structure. Unfortunately it's grown into a vile monster and it won't be shut down or changed until it collapses under its own weight.

Oh look a hook with a fat wiggly quantum worm on it. Shall I bite it ? Hmmmm

Are you denying the stagnation of the EU compared even with Britain (we even had to pay a big chunk of cash over this year because we are doing so well). Are you denying NIRP and calls to end cash in the EU (cash transactions in France and several other countries are now restricted and they are withdrawing the E500 note). Can you deny the mass immigration or the rise of the extremist parties. Can you deny the fences being put back up. Is it possible you missed what they are doing to Greece. I guess you understand how the EU parliament works, so you must know they are not elected-the key word they use is 'pooled sovereignty' which is the illusion that state have democratic sovereignty.

Ignore Boris and the Tory in fighting. After the 23rd I think we will see a real crack develop in the Tory party. Labour are unelectable and the really passionate leavers are being suppressed in favour of the political mainstream suits. People like John Mills of JML are given little to no air time. All we get is Tory suits whilst the establishment wheel out their buddies and the big corporates. We already saw Serco (you know those guys who are looking to institute more private prisons in the UK on the lines of the US) and of course the NHS Simon Stevens an ex US private healthcare man.

They aren't assertions, they are facts. What isn't fact is the remain campaigns ludicrous assertion that we risk WW3, a crash of the pound, mass unemployment, hyper inflation and total isolation. What is fact is that we can't vote out the unelected EU bureaucracy and countries have lost their sovereignty to a supranational corporocracy. Whilst it might not be real freedom to vote in a bi-party political system in a sovereign state, it is still possible to kick out a poor Government and its still possible that a rise of a new party can challenge the leaders. That must be closer to Liberty than a European superstate run by DAVOS men and trough dipping failed bureaucrats. I wouldn't vote for us the be the 51st state either, I think we have a lot more potential. We have come a long way since the terrors of the socialist 70s. We have junked subsidised business and national unionisation. We have some fantastic companies over here. Whilst we are land locked in a stagnant EU we cannot spread our commercial wings because it's easier just to lie in the EU bed with the curtains closed. It's this malaise that really stops the igniting of entrepreneurial rocket boosters. The heavy hand of the EU rests on everything and encourages a catatonic apathy. The US is further down the road to serfdom than Britain. Both Europe and the US are beginning to take on the appearance of 70s Britain. We don't want to fall into that narcoleptic state again. We need to claw our way into the light and we have a narrow window in which we might do it, but if we vote in, that's gone.

Of course there will be greater Liberty because a democratic sovereign state is far closer to the individual than the EU unelected federation. You can't tell what will happen anywhere, but one thing is certain, when you have an unelected bureaucracy it is far less tolerant of individuality and is open to hijack by any kind of extremism to abuse. Me old dad told me years ago-he was a committed socialist-that he clearly saw a fascist future for the EU and that has become reality. It is a corporate and bureaucratic wet dream with an unelected leadership. It is losing its outward trading significance and introverting. There is talk of ending cash, it already has NIRP and cash withdrawal limits. You vote Britain in and if you wanted a bolt hole if things turn nasty it won't be as easy to find a place to run to. The EU is not only stagnant, but it's economy is failing. It has high unemployment and will face even greater waves of low skilled migrant immigration from cultures alien to western values. Barbed wire fences are going up. Extremist parties are on the rise. The treatment of Greece should make it clear what kind of a thing the EU is. It has become impossible for them to escape. It's likely that Britain will be asked to pay greater amounts into a ailing basket case without any hope of ducking out. Those that sit in the EU gravy train will sip champagne, eat caviar and drive around in chauffeur driven luxury whilst those on the outside work like slaves. These are the facts as they stand right now. We can't know if the EU or Britain will get worse or better, but we can see that European productivity and living standards are in decline. We can see the number of migrants that are flooding in each year and the EU seems unlikely to prevent it. NIRP is a reality, limited cash withdrawals are a reality and the removal of large denomination notes is a reality. Fences have gone up, extremist parties are on the rise and the destruction of Greece is headline news. None of that can be denied.