Infolad1

Great link Soaring Crane! I clipped It to my Evernote. Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's Ma Bu is excellent. Very powerful. Thanks! Cheers!

Excellent breakdown Chang! You really know your stuff. Cheers!

Greetings flyinghigh. As I said to Miffymog, you start with a high stance, and naturally build to a lower stance. You have to give the body time to adapt. It's why In our system we teach Yang style first (higher stance). After 3 years or so, now you have a strength base by which to now do Chen style without Injury, and with power. (lower stance) A couple of years after that, then you learn Bajiquan (lowest stance). From my experience, Ma Bu, Zhan Zhuang, and Wuji are all the same thing. Standing at stake, pole standing, etc. Just different names discussing different facets of the same practice. I'll reply as I can today. I've got to teach a Qigong seminar this afternoon, so I've got to prep for that. Cheers!

Miffymog, just do what you can do, the key is to do It consistently. It's the same principle as progressive overload In resistance training. You have to give the body (fascia, bone, etc.) time to adapt to the new stressor. You have to give the lungs time to grow new capillaries, to allow for more blood, and Qi to flow through them. You have to give the mind time to settle down, to eventually get into a deep alpha brainwave state. So you also need time to master the fundamentals of diaphragmatic breathing, in order to accomplish this. Consistency, time, hard work, dedication. These are what make up Gong. 5 minutes a day of Ma Bu for 5 years, beats out an occasional 20 minute session every time. "Little bit, little bit" is the rule. Always start with a high stance. Only go lower as your kua (the Inguinal fold) open up. And never allow your knees to go beyond your toes. It's a great way to damage your knees. Give yourself 6 months of consistent practice to get to 15 minutes, a year to get to 30, add an additional 15 minutes every 3 to 6 months. When your body starts to tremble, allow It for a minute, then stop. You've reached your limit. Use this marker to stay safe. Using the above protocols learned from my Sifu, I've never had any issues, and neither have any of my students. Congratulations on your progress Miffymog. Just keep on truckin' (OMG I just dated myself ) Cheers!

Rudolf_safie, I really want to commend you for pointing out this great, and missed point. Both standing, and sitting gongs are the basic tech In every legitimate martial art (both so called "External", and "Internal") I've ever seen, or trained In. I've trained In the Wu-Tang system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Chiao for the past 10 years. I've been certified to teach Yang Style Tai Chi Quan for the past 5. Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out the Initial biomechanics. You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 60+ minutes for cultivation purposes. Mark Cohen's excellent book on Zhan Zhuang Is highly recommended: Inside Zhan Zhuang: First Edition http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Zhan-Zhuang-Mark-Cohen/dp/0988317885/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= In addition to his Information packed blog: https://insidezhanzhuang.wordpress.com/page/3/ Once you understand the structure of the connective tissues, It all comes together: "Excerpts from the articles in Readings on the Scientific Basis of Bodywork and Movement Therapies by James L. Oschman, Ph.D. and Nora H. Oschman The connective tissue and myofascial systems The connective tissue is a continuous fabric extending throughout the animal body, even into the innermost parts of each cell. All of the great systems of the body --the circulation, the nervous system, the musculo-skeletal system, the digestive tract, the various organs -- all are ensheathed in connective tissue. It is an organ of form, relationship, support, communication, and movement. Connective tissue is a composite material, consisting of strong insoluble collagen fibers embedded in a gel-like ground substance. The fibers are arranged in highly ordered, crystalline arrays. Like many other crystals, connective tissue is piezoelectric, i.e. it generates electric fields when compressed or stretched. Hence any movement of any part of the body, muscle, bone, skin, blood vessel, etc., generates characteristic electrical fields that spread through the surrounding tissues. Since collagen is a semiconductor, the connective tissue is an integrated electronic network that allows all parts of the organism to communicate with each other." Link: http://www.chalicebridge.com/Oschman&Daily/OschmansOnTheirBook.html#anchor11 Electric Universe - The Human Story - James Oschman Dr. Oschman has a number of papers on this, that I would cite, given enough time. Brian made a great point about having actual science to back up claims. The above is a great place to start, along with the following: Qigong as a Traditional Vegetative Biofeedback Therapy: Long-Term Conditioning of Physiological Mind-Body Effects http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4475564/ The PDF download is free. Here are important excerpts, with photos: Abstract A contemporary understanding of Chinese Medicine (CM) regards CM diagnosis as a functional vegetative state that may be treated by vegetative reflex therapies such as acupuncture. Within this context, traditional mind-body exercises such as Qigong can be understood as an attempt to enhance physiological proprioception, by combining a special state of “awareness” with posture, movement, and breath control. We have formerly trained young auditing flutists in “White Ball” Qigong to minimize anxiety-induced cold hands and lower anxiety-induced heart rate. Functional changes occurred 2–5 min after training and were observed over the whole training program, allowing the children to control their symptoms. In our current work, we report that warm fingers and calm hearts could be induced by the children even without Qigong exercises. (Emphasis mine) Thus, these positive changes once induced and “conditioned” vegetatively were stable after weeks of training. This may show the mechanism by which Qigong acts as a therapeutic measure in disease: positive vegetative pathways may be activated instead of dysfunctional functional patterns. The positive vegetative patterns then may be available in critical stressful situations. Qigong exercise programs may therefore be understood as an ancient vegetative biofeedback exercise inducing positive vegetative functions which are added to the individual reactive repertoire. 2.2. Infrared Thermography Experiments were performed at a mean room temperature of 20°C measured with a type K thermocouple connected to a Lab facility digital thermometer, model 2000L. An Infrared camera from FLIR, model A325 (sensibility < 0.07°C; precision ±2%), was used and supported by a tripod, placed 2 metres away from the target. Capture and image analysis were carried out with the program ThermaCAM Researcher Pro 2.9 from FLIR Systems, and the recording frequency was one photo every ten seconds. Thermograms of the Qigong exercise ((a) before; ( after). 2.3. Qigong Posture and TrainingThe Qigong exercise selected for this study was the “White Ball” standing exercise according to the Heidelberg Model of TCM as described in detail elsewhere [10]. In brief, the exercise chosen from this system includes a nondynamic basic Qigong posture, similar to the Wu Chi posture in the Zhan Zhuang system [41–43], minimizing the effects of physical movement. In the exercise, the imagination of holding the ball in front of the abdomen (so-called lower Dantian) is used to induce a sensation traditionally referred to as “qi” sensation, similar to “deqi” sensation observed in acupuncture. Children were instructed to do the exercise daily for seven weeks. They had accompanied training for 30 minutes with an experienced Qigong practitioner twice a week. Anyone who wants to demonstrate real, objective proof as to their actual stage of practice, may want to add some of the above protocols to their testing. There have been tests developed to measure magnetic field projection, and far Infrared generation, by Qigong practitioners. Physical brain changes In the brains of meditators have been measured. We are no longer restricted to subjective, anecdotal evidence for the physical effects of these practices. And we are most assuredly no longer restricted to dated youTube videos that can no longer be directly verified. "Does It Work? Can You Give Proof That It Works? And Can You Replicate Your Results with Others?" In other words, a science based system. Unfortunately, a couple of books, an email, and "my master/sifu/etc. said", does not make a system. Great anecdotal evidence (which should never be discounted), but It wouldn't hold up to peer review. For Mopai, or any system that wants to prove the efficacy of their system, there are physical transformations that occur In real Neigong/Neidan. Thermal Imaging, MRI, accurate measurements of far Infrared, magnetic fields, light (a Japanese team finally proved that humans generate bioluminescence), EEG(electroencephalogram), etc., done by a recognized, accredited third party research team, would verify that your system, and It's effects, are real to everyone. For those that argue about price, you could initially get some postgraduate students to do It for a fraction of the price. I plan to do exactly that, within the next 3 to 5 years. Again, great stuff Rudolf. Kudos!

I know this is an old thread, but I had to complement you gendao. You TOTALLY nailed It. Remember, Neo became "The ONE", after he "died". Then he could "see with new eyes" The Matrix. Some people who've had near death experiences, come back with abilities. It's part of a number of shamanistic cultures. This isn't just a metaphor folks. Real power always comes with sacrifice. As Zen master Yun-men said for us: In the first stage of meditation, thoughts stop. In the second stage of meditation, breathing stops. In the third stage of meditation, the pulses stop. In the fourth stage of meditation, extinction culminates in great stability. It's Interesting. I literally just taught The Hero's Journey to my after school art students on Thursday, diagram, and all. And here It is. Gotta love those synchronicities! Cheers!

Hi Manaus, Go at the pace that YOU'RE comfortable with. Only you know your body. I teach ZZ to various age groups weekly (senior centers, community centers, etc.). Some of them I can teach ZZ standing. At the senior center, I had to modify it, so I teach a lot of them seated. Both groups get positive results (increased relaxation, strength, & mobility), but It will vary, depending on age, physical ailments, etc. From my experience, it's more important to be consistent, versus length of time. Ideally, you're going to be doing this as a lifestyle. You'll get to 15 minutes plus eventually, as long as you stick to it. I usually start folks with 5 minutes, increasing it every couple of weeks, until they're able to do 15 minutes, after 3 to 4 months. But if they don't practice at home, they never get there. Once your legs, and/or arms start trembling, let them for about a minute, then stop. You've reached your limit. Attempt to go a little further each workout. Same thing for more advanced stances I would also check out Mark Cohen's excellent book, and Wordpress site, on ZZ: Inside Zhan Zhuang: First Edition Inside Zhan Zhuang Site ZZ helps with so many things, I'm a bit of a zealot about doing it, and helping others experience it's benefits. But you've got to do what's good for you. I hope this helps. Cheers!

Great article. Thanks. I love this part: "This chart speaks for itself, but here's what the report had to say: "Possible explanations for [male fatalities far exceeding female fatalities] are that males are unaware of all the dangers associated with lightning, are more likely to be in vulnerable situations, are unwilling to be inconvenienced by the threat of lightning, are in situations that make it difficult to get to a safe place in a timely manner, don't react quickly to the lightning threat, or any combination of these explanations." NOAA, in so many words: "Men are idiots." LOL! Never been struck by lightning. Shocked twice by electrical equipment years ago. Wasn't fun either time. Thrown a couple of feet, first time. Left arm went numb, second time. Very fortunate both times, as far as I'm concerned. I respect electricity. Soccer moms, beware Saturdays! Cheers!

Aetherous, you're actually betraying a lack of understanding of the history behind all of these practices. Human energetics, are human energetics. Period. The human body is the same. Period. The process of transformation is the same. Techniques, cultural background, & conditioning are the filters. I've studied Taoism, Judeo-Chrisitianity, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Ancient Egyptian, African based systems, & shamanism. The process is the same. Just the nomenclature, cultural reference, techniques (technology), and level of understanding changes. It's non-denominational. Now unless you know about some human mutants I don''t know about, then yes, the basic process is the same. You don't have to know all of the various techniques, as long as you know the basic principles. Most systems come about due to ego. Someone wanting to put their name on something to feel important, and get paid. Cultivation actually isn't that complicated. It's as complicated as you want it to be. I'd suggest checking out the works of William Bodri, Nan Huai-Chin (Especially his "History of Chinese Zen"), George W. Carey, Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Lu Kuan Yu (Chrles Luk) and Sir John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon), to start. Get an understanding of acupuncture, 5 element theory, & Cross Cultural Astrology, & Cosmology (Ancient Egyptian, Indus Kush, Vedic, Ugaritic, Sumerian, Chinese, African, etc.). Throw In some theurgy while you're at It. Learn an "Internal" style (Tai Chi Quan, Baguazhang, etc.). Learn the mechanics. Learn the energetics. Learn to fight with it. Learn to heal with It. Learn the keys to true health, and wellness, to help both yourself, and others. Give yourself 10 to 20 years to absorb it all, do it, and be able to see the correspondences. Experience the transformations, to take it beyond Intelllectualism, and "What my Sifu/Master/ Grand Poobah" said). I've done all of the above. that's how I KNOW that what I've learned, applied, & now teach, is universally applicable. I've also been very fortunate to have excellent, Internationally recognized teachers. Always helps. A number of people have done this, besides myself. A few of them are on this forum To start you off, I'd suggest checking out Bodri's "What is Enlightenment?" , and "The Little Book of Hercules: The Physical Aspects of the Spiritual Path". He gives an excellent overview of all of this. You can get his "Little Book of Meditation", for application work. I hope this helps. Cheers!

You don't know me. How could you even begin to make such a claim? SMH And when I said basics, I meant an understanding of basic Qigong. I'm close to 20 years beyond basic though. Cheers!

I never claimed to be an expert on all things Qi Aetherous. Please don't attempt to put words In my mouth. What I said is that I've had enough experience with these matters to know the basics. If you're claiming to have a different experience, so be it. I'm relating mine. We're not talking about thunder Aetherous, we're discussing lightning. In the I Ching, that's the 51st hexagram, shocking. Chen doubled can correspond to both emotional, and physical shocks, kundalini, etc. Depends on the situation. "The stillness following the storm" is a mnemonic, that's not the meaning of the 52nd hexagram. It's just imagery to remember the meaning, and nuances of the hexagram. The 52nd hexagram represents deep reflection, meditation, and understanding. All of the hexagrams correspond to physical, mental, and spiritual occurrences, depending on the context of the situation, & stress lines. I've worked I Ching for close to 20 years. Actual consistent usage, not theory. It's an amazing device. They're schools that advocate working with thunder, and lightning. That's cool. I'm aware of those. There are also schools that advocate eating the guru's feces at certain stages of cultivation. That advocate stealing the energy from virgin girls, and boys, to maintain their youth. There are a lot of schools, and systems, that say a LOT of things. There have been many deviations over the centuries. Whether you decide to abide by any of these dictates is your own choice. I choose not to. Jing/Qi/Shen are different aspects of Spirit. Spirit is from the latin spirare, which means to breathe. We're all sharing the same breath (spirit), because we're all living on the same planet, in the same atmosphere, on both a global, and local level. As such, we're effected by things occurring in the atmosphere, ionosphere, magnetosphere, etc., again, both locally, and globally. So If you want to absorb the Qi of disturbances In these environments, have fun with that. If everyone needed to agree 100% in order to socialize, no one would have any friends! LOL! We're just talking. you're relating your experiences, I'm relating mine. No harm, no foul. I've given my viewpoint on all of this. your mileage may vary. Cheers!

Hi GreytoWhite. I've already given my reasons, which were more than "Electricity is bad! Mmmkay?". This isn't a debate for me. Obviously there are MANY systems that are different out there. I don't get into that conversation. It's both pointless, & useless. If your system works for you, and others, have a party. Basic energetics. A lightning storm is a chaotic disturbance in environmental Qi. You take that into you when you practice during a storm. Not good for your long term cultivation. Balance is the goal, not chaos. The explanation doesn't get more complicated than that. So anyone giving out advice contrary to Basic Qigong 101 energetics, I call into question both their, and their system's knowledge base on these matters. If they're not generating any real juice, then they might not have an issue. So there's always that possibility. People are always cavalier about these matters, until someone gets injured. You folks saying it's okay to practice either indoors, or outdoors during lightning storms, please officially go on record saying so, and that'll be the end of it, as far as I'm concerned. ALL cultivation systems are nuanced GreytoWhite. That's irrelevant. What is relevant is that they ALL have the same energetic foundation, because everyone has the same physical, and energetic anatomy. The human body can only move a certain number of ways, but with thousands of techniques within those limited movement patterns. Alchemical transformations only happen one basic way, but with many roads to getting there. At the end of the day, there are no secrets, no unknowns, once you understand the basic principles of these systems, and the science behind them. As I've said before, I've been doing this for over 15 years. I can express all of the primary jings. I've gone through over half of the cultivation process. I lift over 120lbs. In Iron Crotch Nei-Gong. Most importantly, I've taught others to do the same. I've been trained by a number of teachers, Including a top, recognized Grandmaster, from an authentic lineage of Taoist priests, if folks want to go there, regarding my bonafides. My Bio is in my first post. Everything I talk about, I can actually do. I'd say I've been exposed to quite a bit GreytoWhite. But you're entitled to your opinion. Everyone Is. As I always say, people can make up their own minds. If they don't think what I said has any credence, so be it. If you consider what I said to be repetitive, again so be it. But from my personal experience, In addition to what I've been taught by multiple teachers, I wouldn't advise it. I want new folks to take these points into consideration, before hastily jumping into a potentially deadly practice. The only reason I even commented on this, is that I don't want to see anyone get hurt. And from a practical, common sense level, regarding outdoor training during lightning storms: "According to the NOAA (The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration), over the last 20 years, the United States averaged 51 annual lightning strike fatalities, placing it in the second position, just behind floods for deadly weather. In the US, between 9% and 10% of those struck die, for an average of 40 to 50 deaths per year (28 in 2008)." Your odds of getting hit?: "The chance of an average person living in the US being struck by lightning in a given year is estimated at 1 in 960,000, while the chance of being struck by lightning in a lifetime is 1 in 12,000 (estimated lifespan of 80 years)." So for you outdoor lightning cultivators, if you didn't before, you've now got all of the statistics regarding being hit by lightning. You want to keep playing that lottery, have fun with that. This is my last word on any of this. As I said, this isn't a debate for me. I also don't have the inclination, or time, for a pissing contest. I'm posting this reply, as I always do, for educational purposes. I'm sincerely amazed that this is even a conversation on here. I hope this further clarified my position, GreytoWhite. Good fortune to all of you, In your work. Cheers!

The point is not to practice PERIOD, during a thunderstorm. It's not just about getting struck by lightning. It's not the kind of energy you want to take in that way. This is basic Qigong. If some folks can't understand the reasons why, there's really not a whole lot more I can say. Have fun. Cheers!

Some of you are going to get someone hurt or killed, or get hurt, or killed yourselves. WE'RE Immortal. These vehicles are NOT. You NEVER cultivate during a lightning storm! EVER! Inside OR outside. It's one of the first rules I give out, when I'm teaching Qigong, and/or cultivation. This is basic safety 101. A storm's a disturbance In the atmosphere. So it's going to cause a physical, emotional, & energetic disturbance In YOU. I can feel lightning strikes happening miles away now. And not In a good way. I'm NOT cultivating during that. Anyone who does...Good luck with that. Or, said another way: Cheers!

Exactly! When the game is over, it's over, regardless of how long it takes to play it... ...And then you eventually start ANOTHER game. After all, what else DO you do with forever? Cheers!

Nothing odd at all, forestofemptiness. Spirit is from the latin spirare, "breathe". Spirit, kundalini, Orgone, Od, Vril, Great Spirit (Great Breath), Holy Spirit (Holy Breath/Whole Breath), Kundalini, Dambada Hwedo, Ki, Qi. R-Complex (reptilian complex) of the brain is responsible for breathing. Reptile=serpent=Kundalini It's all breath. We people talk about spirits, they're talking about different breaths. When you cross reference practices, and descriptions, everyone's talking about the same thing, but thinking they're talking about something different (which is rampant with these practices, causing a lot of unnecessary divisiveness, and anger). Breath is composed of gases. When Ionized, gas is plasma. That's what happens at higher practice stages. Always trace the etymology of a word, not what someone says it is. Saves a lot of confusion. Laying of hands = Emitting Qi out of the laogong points to heal people. I've done it a few times. Once you build up enough Qi, just about anyone can do it. A friend of mines had a detached retina. They were going to have to do major surgery on her. A group of friends emitted Qi on her eye for an hour. She goes in the next day, and as the doctor's going over views of her retina they just did, he goes, "Wait a minute. that's odd? "What?" she says. "Your retina has partially re-attached" he says, with this puzzled look on his face. So he downgrades her surgery to a less intensive one, to finish the re-attachment, and her eye is perfectly fine today. East and West coming together to heal. It's a wonderful thing! Cheers!

As an attempt to get the thread back on topic, here's an excerpt from William Bodri's "Spiritual Paths and Their Meditation Techniques" That discusses Physical Immortality, versus enlightenment: Amazon Link: http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Paths-Their-Meditation-Techniques/dp/1452869367/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438141584&sr=1-4&keywords=william+bodri&pebp=1438141594695&perid=1YNJ0Z0TM29C2JQ99Z3W "Even though most Immortals remain within the Realm of Desire, because they have highly developed their powers of one-pointed concentration for such a long period of time, it is possible that they can become enlightened in an instant if they are shown the correct path of cultivation and given a chance to reach the proper sort of awakening. If they are lucky enough to meet a good teacher, and all the right circumstances come together, they can become enlightened immediately. This was the case of the Taoist immortal Lu Ch’un-yang, who was author of the“Hundred Word Inscription” which describes the cultivation practices that will bring about the stage of the Immortals and yet higher spiritual attainments. This poem collapses the entire road of spiritual cultivation into just a few words, and has been used to train countless generations of spiritual adepts. Lu Ch’un-yang’s story is a very instructive one. For years he had cultivated his internal chi energy to the point where he had reached the stage of the Immortals. He could live forever in the world without dying, and had attained many spiritual powers such as making himself invisible and projecting a double of his physical self. Because of his internal energy, like the Tibetan adept Milarepa he could even fly through the air. One day he was actually flying through the sky and noticed a particularly auspicious aura around a mountain. When he dropped down to investigate the source of the aura, all he could find was what appeared to be an unimpressive old monk, Zen master Huang-lung Nan, lecturing to a group of students. When the monk found out that the visitor was Lu Ch’un-yang, he insulted his famous visitor by saying, “I thought from your reputation that you were someone special,only now I see you are just a ghost guarding a corpse.” In other words, “You have cultivated this body of yours so that it might go on living forever, but since this is not the real you, you are just clinging to a dead material shell. ”Lu Ch’un-yang shot back: “The true man possesses the elixir of immortality inside. What is that useless body of yours worth compared to this?” but Zen master Huang-lung Nan calmly countered, “Even if you can drag your corpse through eternity without dying, in the end this is of little significance. ”Lu Ch’un-yang became very angry at this slight and drawing upon his superpowers, threw his sword at the Zen master to frighten the old monk. The sword sliced through the air headed at the master but surprisingly, stopped in front of the monk, reversed itself, and then started to fly back toward Lu Ch’un-yang! Lu Ch’un-yang was incredulous at this turn of events. How was this counter-feat possible from an old bald-headed monk who did not exhibit any signs of superpowers at all? Lu Ch’un-yang never imagined that a Zen monk could be so powerful. Lu Ch’un-yang relaxed his defenses and opened up a little at this event, and then started to engage the old monk in dialogue to see what he had to say. Zen master Huang-lung Nan challenged him to reveal what he had learned through his many years of cultivating his physical nature. Master Huang-lung Nan said, “You do not have to resort to this sort of technique. Just a moment ago you said you had some real ability. Tell me what spiritual truth you have realized.” Because of the subsequent conversation, Lu Ch’un-yang realized that he had been holding tightly onto the view of an inherent ego, and clinging to his physical body rather than cultivating emptiness. When Master Huang-lung Nan taught him that Zen meant emptying the mind of concepts, judgements, opinions and ego, Lu Ch’un-yang finally awakened in enlightenment, and later wrote a verse to commemorate his realization: I throw away the gourd and drop the zither, I don’t long for the gold in the mercury any longer. After I saw Master Huang-lung just once, I finally realized that I had always been wrongly using my mind. There are many stories like this which all show that enlightenment requires adherence to consistent and determined spiritual practice, and continually working until the right circumstances come together for an awakening. From this story we can also see that laying a correct spiritual foundation through consistent training and practice can result in instantaneous enlightenment when one is prompted correctly. Simply “practicing the physical nature,” which includes cultivating your body’s energy channels and chi, will not result in spiritual enlightenment. However, it can indeed banish sickness and help prolong life. These results correspond to a physical purification that can in turn help you to progress on the spiritual path." As with a lot of things In life, it's very rarely a matter of either this, or that. Usually, it's both. Walking the middle road tends to be the best way to go. Your mileage may vary. Finally, Here's "The Hundred Word Inscription": To nurture the vital energy, the ch'i, keep watch without words To subdue the mind, act without acting Recognize the patriarch in movement and stillness There is nothing to be concerned about: who else are you seeking? What's true and eternal must respond to beings To respond to beings you must not be deluded If you are not deluded, real nature remains by itself When real nature remains, vital energy returns by itself When vital energy returns, the elixir spontaneously forms In the vessel the fire [of prajna] and the water [of jnana] are matched Yin and yang are born in succession Universal transformation rolls like thunder Sweet dew sprinkles down on Sumeru Drink for yourself the wine of immortality As you roam free, no one will know, Sit and listen to the tune of the zither without strings Clearly comprehend the working of creation It's all in these twenty lines A true ladder straight to heaven. May we all have the good fortune to get there. And Beyond! Cheers!

Good enough. Thanks. Cheers!

You put it together perfectly Apech. Thanks. Cheers!

Not the Individual, small "I", which is false. The true "I", which is the same "I" In everyone. What you said isn't what I'm talking about at all. What I'm talking about is getting the request directly from the source, not the false self. I hope that's clearer. If not, I apologize. I really want to be clear about this point. It's a very important point. The person isn't making the decision to stay. The Selfless I is. Good fortune to you also. Cheers!

You do that every time you meditate correctly. That's why most people have time distortion, after coming out of the meditative state ("I thought I meditated for 1 hour. It's only been 10 minutes"). The goal is to go back to zero. "To Crush The Nothingness". Then the final goal is to not attach to either state, "0", or "1". To be In the world, but not of the world. All of the above are just descriptions, approximations, stand-ins for the actual reality, which is to be experienced. Cheers!

Nice quote. He's right about doing the true Will, versus people's ego & desire, that they confuse with the True Will of the Self. The Self isn't the soul though. The Self functions through soul/spirit.The Self is immaterial. The spirit is material. A lot of folks get confused on that one. you'll even see it happen in various translations. But he's got some very interesting magical theories. Applies them very well to his stories. And he actually does it, always a plus in my book. His "Promethea" is excellent. Cheers!

I'm talking about in Selfess service to all, as an extension of the original nature. not as an ego stroke of the false persona. To paraphrase The Blues Brothers (And people, please don't take this literal ) : "You're now on a mission from God". Cheers!

Longevity should just be a means to an end, which is the achievement of Spiritual immortality. You've got to give the caterpillar enough time to change Into a butterfly. Any motive beyond that is fear based, as you stated Jeff. Cheers! P.S. Another good motive would be to take the time to teach others the way back, before you leave.

It was an analogy MooNiNite. An example. At the end of the day, all we're doing, and can do is give descriptions of The Self. And of course they're going to pale to the reality of Self. By it's very nature, it's beyond description. It is something to be experienced. In this context, Marvelman works fine. Did you ever read it? Great work. Alan Moore's an amazing writer. But i digress. Let me know if you still disagree. Cheers!