A.A.Khokhlov

To not get far away from the original topic, please see my suggestion in PM. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Thank you, it points us to quite an interesting direction. Lets continue your research. So ancient Shuowen Jiezi dictionary says about 悟 wu: "悟，覺也". And here is what Shuowen Jiezi says about about 覺 itself: "覺，寤也" And this 寤 means - realize (understand), awake from sleep, awaken (hillarious, is it not? ). It can not be translated as "awareness". Thank you for some part of Confucianist wisdom. But we are actually speaking about "Sudden Enlightenment" in Daoism, not about "awareness" in Confucianism. Just curious: is "become aware and enlightened to know what the pain is" a final stage in your school? While people are usually starting to practice in our online groups to get rid of pain and avoid it in future... (they generally are able to successfully attain this). Agree. So far we haven't seen any references to Daoist "sudden enlightenment". Lets see, probably someone will manage to finally find it. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

"The story of the Flower Sermon appears to have been created by Chinese Chán Buddhists.[3] The earliest known version of the tale appeared in 1036.[3]" Basing on tales a one will probably become a good storyteller It is Chan buddhism text. I believe trying to find the role and true meaning of "Sudden enlightenment" in Daoism we must base on something more Daoist and more authoritative than Chan Buddhist texts, English articles and tales. Right, it is a Chinese word. With meaning understand, awake. "Etymology: 悟, From heart 忄心 and phonetic 吾. Meaning to realize (understand)." Quite funny claim https://www.google.ru/search?q=taoism+and+buddhism+conflicts Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Very nice (just a tiny correction - the second is spelled as xing, not xin). It is a buddhist term meaning "understand your original nature, become buddha". Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary? Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages? How do you notice that your yuanqi is being regenerated? How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? Where is it located? How much of it do you have remaining? Thank you for this point of view. It has common points with Yuxianpai and Wuliupai doctrines, but also has differences: usually in Daoism Xing must unite with Ming, so there is no Xing and Ming anymore. It happens on Dixian (Earthly immortal) stage. Thank you for this comparison with Vedantic tradition. Are there also some stages which need to be passed gradually as in Daoist Alchemy or a single practice which a person must be doing? You just repeat the mistakes of this noneame author. 頓悟 is sudden understanding (awakening). Here is a qoute helping you to 悟 what "悟" means. 悟 wù （了解; 领会; 觉醒） understand; wake up; realize; awaken: 醒悟 come to realize the truth or one's error 执迷不悟 refuse to come to one's senses 翻然悔悟 quickly wake up to one's error And another author's mistake you are probably not aware of: Zhang Boduan's text is not about 頓悟 at all, it is about Inner Alchemy process. It seems there is only one usage of "頓悟" in the entire Zhang Boduan text. It is in the preface, when he compares Daoism and Buddhism: "Shakyamuni followers (i.e. buddhists) as the most important regard emptyness and calmness which come after the 頓悟... (While) Laozi followers (i.e. daoists) regard as a true method transmutating (i.e. cultivating Ming) and cultivating original Xing..." I usually advice my students not to rely on noname (and even named) Western articles in the internet but always do research and investigate themselves. The same mistake. 悟 wù is not enlightenment. And 見性 is a buddhist term. BTW, probably you are able to point us to some exact places in Daoist texts describing "alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment"? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

I'm glad you love arts. Our website is very bright, it is true We are working on new one, clarifying some translations, creating new articles, making it more comfortable to use. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Agree. However it is quite interesting how the specific term will be in Chinese. Did I get you right? You mean awareness is another word for enlightenment. It is widening our question. We need to find a Chinese word meaning both "enlightenment" and "awareness" to check this concept in Daoism. Traditionally in Daoism immortal doesn't mean awareness (such things unfortunately do not seem to be achievable by awareness). Daoist Patriarchs of all epochs were all writing about sequence of "laying the foundation", "refining jing to qi", "refining qi to shen", "refining shen to the void". You are blaiming them all do not know how to perform self-cultivation. Weak position, I think. Thank you for your opinion. Purpose of this topic is to understand the connection of Daoism and Buddhism through the concept of "sudden enlightenment". First we need to find a proper Chinese term. Agree. In addition, traditional Schools are saying that you need to cultivate both sides - Xing and Ming, reaching them uniting into One. Which could be hypotetically called "enlightened Xing" with power of Ming. The name of it is Yangshen (= Yang Xing = Ming Xing ) Very nice, thank you. So far we have 悟 as a hypothesis for enlightenment. Lets see what does it mean in translation from Chinese: 悟 - understand, comprehend with mind, awake, (in philosophy) understand the essense of things. All meanings so far refer to mind, Xing, not sign of Ming or immortality here... Could there be any other appropriate Chinese terms? Thank you damdao, very interesting. Who knows, may be we will manage to find some more interesting Chinese terms? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

In xiantian state it is like this. But ordinary human is in houtian state, and the cultivation process is designed for him. That is why in later-heaven bagua sequence Qian is in the bottom and Kun is in the top. In case you a right - words of famous Taoist immortals Lui Dongbin, Zhang Boduan and other famous patriarchs - are all "false and undermining the whole cultivation scene." Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Liu Yiming was practicing the Northern Method of Longmenpai so it might have been true for his methodology. By the way is there any information of him passing that level? While in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai 9 years facing the wall is a stage when person is practicing for a long long time completely still in the cave for certain reasons facing the direction opposite to entrance of the cave. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Probably you can provide any foundation beyond your personal dislike to sequential cultivation process in Daoism? Maybe... Maybe even in daoism... Who knows? What are my words backed by? 1) Traditional teaching of Yuxianpai alchemy School. 2) Traditional teaching of WuLiupai alchemy School. 3) Studying numerous ancient daoist texts. Which all say the same. So: Yes, it is how we teach in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai. Not at all, it is not an approach of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai only. It is same to words of many Patriarchs of ancient Daoism and approach of other traditional Chinese schools we are in contact with. Clarification: No, I don't say there might be no other approaches. But I say the results of different approaches may also be different. You are twisting the words again. So much disrespect to fellow members. Let me remind you the sequence: 1) Awaken (falsely) had said Liu Huayang was only 3 days with his Teacher. 2) People have asked for any proof for it. 3) You mentioned there was a proof in some link awaken has posted before. 4) People got no response from awaken (which means her words had no foundation). 5) You posted the mentioned message. Obviously trying to make a (false) foundation for her words. It is clear for everyone. So you sat in puddle again trying to fool fellow members. And here is about your failed attempts to distort simple Patriarchs' words not being able to understand them: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations/ I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism. Yes it is correct. We use Daoist Alchemy and Traditional Daoism as synonyms. You have probably misunderstood the meaning of Wu Wei and You Wei. I will clarify it additionally soon. Agree. Here is a thread about it: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/ I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Well, for some specific students 100 days laying the foundation may symbolise 1000 days laying the foundation and even that might be not enough It makes sense. Ancient Yijing is about the Changes, but is it possible for relative people to understand it? In traditional daoism (= daoist alchemy) there are special practices to stop dreams. Dreams actually are fantasies, illusion, daoist patriarchs have written about it. They might be more pleasant or less pleasant but all of it is for ordinary person. Alchemy master doesn't have dreams. What daoist text have you taken this sequence from? It is correct. Here is a quote from dictionary everyone is probably aware of: "Dream 1. mental activity, usually in the form of an imagined series of events, occurring during certain phases of sleep 2. a sequence of imaginative thoughts indulged in while awake; daydream; fantasy ... 5. a vain hope 6. a person or thing that is as pleasant, or seemingly unreal, as a dream" What daoist text have you taken these statements from? Or is it your own thoughts? Practically, it is not possible. Obviously it contradicts self-cultivation. All you are talking about - "realeasing bonds of karma" and so on is a kind of mindwork and has no relation to Daoism. All living creatures have a simple karma - to die. If you can not escape from this - all these nice words about "releasing bonds of karma" remain just words... What you have noticed above clearly corresponds with the meaning of the Chinese term oftenly translated as "sudden enlightenement". See http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/ Known by whom? Should this knowledge be somehow backed by evidences? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

"Sudden enlightenment" is a later buddhist term. A lot of buddhist are waiting for it to come one day... But we are mostly daoists and are practicing this system. Who knows how "Sudden enlightenment" will be in Chinese? Does it have any relation to becoming a xian (immortal)? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Please notice your message. Probably we will return to it later. Young yangshen is also called Dao fetus. You can not see Dao with any of your... let it be 3 eyes. And if you see any spirits it are yin spirits (ghosts). They exist in a large number and can take any form including Laozi, immortals and so on. And by the way they take such forms not without a reason ! If you think you are able to perceive invisible yangshen / Dao - it is easy to check. Where is Dao (life source) inside of you? How do you distinguish it from post-heaven qi? How much yuanqi do you have remaining? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Thank you Ormus. It shows us that it would be really hard to find a symbolism in time span as it is one of things which are pretty definite. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Could you please tell us: 1) What exact symbolism is in 100 days laying the foundation and why? 2) What exact symbolism is in 3 years of breastfeeding and why? 3) What exact symbolism is in 9 years facing the wall and why? Please comment only about time spans. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Yes yinshen is actually a ghost. And Daoism says when a person looses his yuanqi (dies) he becomes a ghost. What happens next - is a separate issue... Yes yangshen can manifest himself physically and do deeds in an outer world. It is said that immortal is not loosing his consciousness, moreover he attains super-consciousness. Yangshen is connected with the body, but will not die if the body dies. Teacher of Single Yang has visited our (His) branch in Russia in 2008. We are traveling China for corrections and Teaching by Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools several times a year. The answer is in the first message of the current topic. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov