A.A.Khokhlov

Teacher of Single Yang (WuLiupai): "... This way you will create and strengthen Yangshen. In future Yangshen will go to travel 1000s li, everywhere will pass through many countries, wonderfully using true emptiness will suddenly appear and disappear, come through the Heaven and the Earth, will be able to "walk on the Sun and play on the Moon", coming in the water he will not drawn, in the fire he will not burn, will be able to freely penetrate through metal and stone, and will feel contentment in everything. Yin and yang would not be able to impact him, vice versa he will be able to change yin-yang, wuxing (5 elements) would not be able to transform him, vice versa he will be able to transform wuxing. The Lord of hell wouldn't be able to control your death, deities wouldn't be able to manage your life, you will be absolutely free in everything. If you would like to stay a little more on the Earth you can help people, do great deeds and do what you love the most. If you would like to exit from profane to the sacred you will ascend in the illlumination upwards and will change your position. No matter you will stay in the mundane world or exit it, everywhere you will be able to help the world, benefit living creatures, straighten the correct and eradicate the evil, save from drought and flood, stop natural disasters and misfortunes. You will be able to spread wonderful treatises, every day expounding a ten thousand words to spread the Dao and spread the law by "transmitting the lamp" to save everything living. In complete freedom with miraculous abilities you will be able to transform without limitations. Thus 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100 000, 1 000 000 calps, eternally being alive without burths and deaths, and up to form being divided to 100, 1000, 10000, 100 000 transformed bodies filling the Great Universe in an absolute freedom without limitations. You would need to continue this achievement by further practice..."

"Sudden enlightenment" is a later buddhist term. A lot of buddhist are waiting for it to come one day... But we are mostly daoists and are practicing this system. Who knows how "Sudden enlightenment" will be in Chinese? Does it have any relation to becoming a xian (immortal)? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Cultivating in traditional Daoism is a sequential process with stages need to passed one by one. One of the first stages is repleneshing yuanqi. The time required to finish this stage depends (among other factors) on student's age. Stages names, like "100 days laying the foundation" "3 years of breastfeeding" "9 years facing the wall" all show us the required time. And what if deviations appear? What if student faces some difficulty or even danger in the cultivation process? The Teacher helps him/her. Same in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools. So the process of studying / teaching requires Time. ========================== Some forum members using the fact that only few of fellow members know Chinese, post parts of text in hieroglyphs as an "evidence" to their fantasies. As other members are not able to check what is the meaning of these words it becomes possible to fool fellow members. One of the examples has some relation to this topic. "Taoist Texts" claimed in one of previous threads that "Liu Huayang was studying only 3 days from Wu Chongxu", bringing this fragment “我以四十余年究竟之力而悟，后圣不终三日，彻见而彻知，并解悟二经之法旨，不大便宜耶？” （《伍柳天仙法脉》，宗教文化出版社，第 13页， 2007版） as an "evidence". Probably it has fooled some fellow members. But what do we actually see in the book mentioned? See the attach - no such words on 13th page. Hope it will help fellow members in distinguishing between truth and lies. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

To not get far away from the original topic, please see my suggestion in PM. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Thank you, it points us to quite an interesting direction. Lets continue your research. So ancient Shuowen Jiezi dictionary says about 悟 wu: "悟，覺也". And here is what Shuowen Jiezi says about about 覺 itself: "覺，寤也" And this 寤 means - realize (understand), awake from sleep, awaken (hillarious, is it not? ). It can not be translated as "awareness". Thank you for some part of Confucianist wisdom. But we are actually speaking about "Sudden Enlightenment" in Daoism, not about "awareness" in Confucianism. Just curious: is "become aware and enlightened to know what the pain is" a final stage in your school? While people are usually starting to practice in our online groups to get rid of pain and avoid it in future... (they generally are able to successfully attain this). Agree. So far we haven't seen any references to Daoist "sudden enlightenment". Lets see, probably someone will manage to finally find it. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

"The story of the Flower Sermon appears to have been created by Chinese Chán Buddhists.[3] The earliest known version of the tale appeared in 1036.[3]" Basing on tales a one will probably become a good storyteller It is Chan buddhism text. I believe trying to find the role and true meaning of "Sudden enlightenment" in Daoism we must base on something more Daoist and more authoritative than Chan Buddhist texts, English articles and tales. Right, it is a Chinese word. With meaning understand, awake. "Etymology: 悟, From heart 忄心 and phonetic 吾. Meaning to realize (understand)." Quite funny claim https://www.google.ru/search?q=taoism+and+buddhism+conflicts Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Very nice (just a tiny correction - the second is spelled as xing, not xin). It is a buddhist term meaning "understand your original nature, become buddha". Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary? Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages? How do you notice that your yuanqi is being regenerated? How do you distinguish it from ordinary qi? Where is it located? How much of it do you have remaining? Thank you for this point of view. It has common points with Yuxianpai and Wuliupai doctrines, but also has differences: usually in Daoism Xing must unite with Ming, so there is no Xing and Ming anymore. It happens on Dixian (Earthly immortal) stage. Thank you for this comparison with Vedantic tradition. Are there also some stages which need to be passed gradually as in Daoist Alchemy or a single practice which a person must be doing? You just repeat the mistakes of this noneame author. 頓悟 is sudden understanding (awakening). Here is a qoute helping you to 悟 what "悟" means. 悟 wù （了解; 领会; 觉醒） understand; wake up; realize; awaken: 醒悟 come to realize the truth or one's error 执迷不悟 refuse to come to one's senses 翻然悔悟 quickly wake up to one's error And another author's mistake you are probably not aware of: Zhang Boduan's text is not about 頓悟 at all, it is about Inner Alchemy process. It seems there is only one usage of "頓悟" in the entire Zhang Boduan text. It is in the preface, when he compares Daoism and Buddhism: "Shakyamuni followers (i.e. buddhists) as the most important regard emptyness and calmness which come after the 頓悟... (While) Laozi followers (i.e. daoists) regard as a true method transmutating (i.e. cultivating Ming) and cultivating original Xing..." I usually advice my students not to rely on noname (and even named) Western articles in the internet but always do research and investigate themselves. The same mistake. 悟 wù is not enlightenment. And 見性 is a buddhist term. BTW, probably you are able to point us to some exact places in Daoist texts describing "alchemical masters causing their disciples to attain sudden enlightenment"? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

I'm glad you love arts. Our website is very bright, it is true We are working on new one, clarifying some translations, creating new articles, making it more comfortable to use. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Agree. However it is quite interesting how the specific term will be in Chinese. Did I get you right? You mean awareness is another word for enlightenment. It is widening our question. We need to find a Chinese word meaning both "enlightenment" and "awareness" to check this concept in Daoism. Traditionally in Daoism immortal doesn't mean awareness (such things unfortunately do not seem to be achievable by awareness). Daoist Patriarchs of all epochs were all writing about sequence of "laying the foundation", "refining jing to qi", "refining qi to shen", "refining shen to the void". You are blaiming them all do not know how to perform self-cultivation. Weak position, I think. Thank you for your opinion. Purpose of this topic is to understand the connection of Daoism and Buddhism through the concept of "sudden enlightenment". First we need to find a proper Chinese term. Agree. In addition, traditional Schools are saying that you need to cultivate both sides - Xing and Ming, reaching them uniting into One. Which could be hypotetically called "enlightened Xing" with power of Ming. The name of it is Yangshen (= Yang Xing = Ming Xing ) Very nice, thank you. So far we have 悟 as a hypothesis for enlightenment. Lets see what does it mean in translation from Chinese: 悟 - understand, comprehend with mind, awake, (in philosophy) understand the essense of things. All meanings so far refer to mind, Xing, not sign of Ming or immortality here... Could there be any other appropriate Chinese terms? Thank you damdao, very interesting. Who knows, may be we will manage to find some more interesting Chinese terms? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

In xiantian state it is like this. But ordinary human is in houtian state, and the cultivation process is designed for him. That is why in later-heaven bagua sequence Qian is in the bottom and Kun is in the top. In case you a right - words of famous Taoist immortals Lui Dongbin, Zhang Boduan and other famous patriarchs - are all "false and undermining the whole cultivation scene." Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Liu Yiming was practicing the Northern Method of Longmenpai so it might have been true for his methodology. By the way is there any information of him passing that level? While in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai 9 years facing the wall is a stage when person is practicing for a long long time completely still in the cave for certain reasons facing the direction opposite to entrance of the cave. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Probably you can provide any foundation beyond your personal dislike to sequential cultivation process in Daoism? Maybe... Maybe even in daoism... Who knows? What are my words backed by? 1) Traditional teaching of Yuxianpai alchemy School. 2) Traditional teaching of WuLiupai alchemy School. 3) Studying numerous ancient daoist texts. Which all say the same. So: Yes, it is how we teach in Yuxianpai and WuLiupai. Not at all, it is not an approach of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai only. It is same to words of many Patriarchs of ancient Daoism and approach of other traditional Chinese schools we are in contact with. Clarification: No, I don't say there might be no other approaches. But I say the results of different approaches may also be different. You are twisting the words again. So much disrespect to fellow members. Let me remind you the sequence: 1) Awaken (falsely) had said Liu Huayang was only 3 days with his Teacher. 2) People have asked for any proof for it. 3) You mentioned there was a proof in some link awaken has posted before. 4) People got no response from awaken (which means her words had no foundation). 5) You posted the mentioned message. Obviously trying to make a (false) foundation for her words. It is clear for everyone. So you sat in puddle again trying to fool fellow members. And here is about your failed attempts to distort simple Patriarchs' words not being able to understand them: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations/ I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism. Yes it is correct. We use Daoist Alchemy and Traditional Daoism as synonyms. You have probably misunderstood the meaning of Wu Wei and You Wei. I will clarify it additionally soon. Agree. Here is a thread about it: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/ I believe it should be backed by something more specific. Especially being that not traditional to the entire Chinese Daoism. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Well, for some specific students 100 days laying the foundation may symbolise 1000 days laying the foundation and even that might be not enough It makes sense. Ancient Yijing is about the Changes, but is it possible for relative people to understand it? In traditional daoism (= daoist alchemy) there are special practices to stop dreams. Dreams actually are fantasies, illusion, daoist patriarchs have written about it. They might be more pleasant or less pleasant but all of it is for ordinary person. Alchemy master doesn't have dreams. What daoist text have you taken this sequence from? It is correct. Here is a quote from dictionary everyone is probably aware of: "Dream 1. mental activity, usually in the form of an imagined series of events, occurring during certain phases of sleep 2. a sequence of imaginative thoughts indulged in while awake; daydream; fantasy ... 5. a vain hope 6. a person or thing that is as pleasant, or seemingly unreal, as a dream" What daoist text have you taken these statements from? Or is it your own thoughts? Practically, it is not possible. Obviously it contradicts self-cultivation. All you are talking about - "realeasing bonds of karma" and so on is a kind of mindwork and has no relation to Daoism. All living creatures have a simple karma - to die. If you can not escape from this - all these nice words about "releasing bonds of karma" remain just words... What you have noticed above clearly corresponds with the meaning of the Chinese term oftenly translated as "sudden enlightenement". See http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43032-sudden-enlightenment-in-daoism/ Known by whom? Should this knowledge be somehow backed by evidences? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Please notice your message. Probably we will return to it later. Young yangshen is also called Dao fetus. You can not see Dao with any of your... let it be 3 eyes. And if you see any spirits it are yin spirits (ghosts). They exist in a large number and can take any form including Laozi, immortals and so on. And by the way they take such forms not without a reason ! If you think you are able to perceive invisible yangshen / Dao - it is easy to check. Where is Dao (life source) inside of you? How do you distinguish it from post-heaven qi? How much yuanqi do you have remaining? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Thank you Ormus. It shows us that it would be really hard to find a symbolism in time span as it is one of things which are pretty definite. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Could you please tell us: 1) What exact symbolism is in 100 days laying the foundation and why? 2) What exact symbolism is in 3 years of breastfeeding and why? 3) What exact symbolism is in 9 years facing the wall and why? Please comment only about time spans. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

When a person starts studying Daoism the first question he/she would have is – where to study Daoism from? In modern world there is a standard answer for that: read, read and read. First in the Internet later in books and probably some even more rare sources. But the books are limitless – more and more are getting written now. And very often different books point us to completely different directions. But human’s life is limited and person has to choose which way to go and in case of mistakes in choice there are not much more tries available. In Daoism there is an official collection of Daoist texts called 道藏 Daozang - Taoist Canon. Famous Patriarchs and Immortals of the past have left us their advices and instructions in their writings. In Daoist world Daozang is regarded as an authoritative source for all who would like to know the truth about Daoism. And the best choice (among other variants of reading) would be to study directly what Patriarchs have written to us (to start studying Immortals’ texts is step #1). If a person is persevering enough and comes to studying original (or translated) texts from Daozang the next perfect step would be to find what have famous Immortals recommended to start practice with (to find this would be the step #2). Then he/she would be quite surprised to find that the advice is not “to read the texts more and more”. But to find a True Teacher instead. In this article we would like to help a beginner to pass these 2 important steps described above by providing a several quotes from original texts of famous Immortals of the past. 1. Patriarch Liu Huayang: 虽有智贤无所从入 yet you be smart and talented but you wouldn't have a thing to start (enter the teaching). 此馀苦心求师悟道之本愿也 It is my vow (yearning) in untiring seek for Teacher and realization of Dao. My (Wu Chongxu - Liu Huayang’s School student) commentary: Yet the person is talented he/she would be unable to start the practice him/herself. Patriarch Liu suggest a student to follow his example in “untiring seek for Teacher and realization of Dao”. 2. Patriarch Zhang Boduan: 饶君聪慧过颜闵，不遇真师莫强猜。 Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min [1], Without meeting a true Teacher, you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses. 只为金丹无口诀，教君何处结灵胎。 Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching, From what place would you learn how to conceive the spiritual fetus? [1] Yan and Min were the smartest students of Confuci: 顏閔 (顏閔, 颜闵) 孔子 弟子 顏回 和 閔損 的並稱。 3. Daoist 翁葆光 Weng Baoguang's commentary to Zhang Boduan's words: 紫陽真人悟真篇註疏 南宋翁葆光注 饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。 只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。 註曰：千經萬論，惟布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印。未遇真師，徒勞口耳。此道非真師口訣，雖有顏閔之聰慧，亦不可強自猜度也。 Commentary (of Daoist Weng Baoguang) says: Thousands of canons and numberless treatises is just a publishing of branches of external [2]. While attaining the Dao is not difficult, it is solely a transmission of a heart seal [3]. If you haven’t met a true Teacher, you would just vainly tire your mouth and ears – nothing more! About this Dao, without verbal instructions of a true Teacher, even having a mind of Yan and Min, yet impossible to somehow guess by yourself. [2] Branches without the trunk, meaning external (supplementary) part without internal (base). [3] Transmission from heart to heart. 4. Patriarch Xue Daoguang, 3rd Patriarch of the Southern Neidan School (where Zhang Boduan was the first Patriarch): 經名：紫陽真人悟真篇三註。五卷，北宋張伯端原著，南宋薛道光、陸墅，元陳致虛注。 道光曰：千經萬論，唯布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印，未遇真師，強猜不得。 子野曰：非師口訣真要，則從何處而下手。 上陽子曰：九流百家，一應藝術，皆可留之紙上，或可以智慧猜曉而知，唯獨金丹一事，非得真師逐節指示，不可強以意會。 Patriarch Xue Daoguang’s commentary: Thousands of canons and numberless treatises is just a publishing of branches of external. While attaining the Dao is not difficult, it is solely a transmission of a heart seal. If you haven’t met a true Teacher – even guessing diligently you would be unable to guess. Patriarch Lu Shu’s commentary: Without a true basement of verbal instructions of a Teacher, what way would you start the practice (i.e. you wouldn’t be able to start the practice)? Patriarch Chen Zhixui’s commentary: It is possible to save in a paper thinkers of different philosophical schools and all the arts, so it would be possible by means of mind guess and cognize it (them). And the single thing – the golden elixir, without a consistent gradual instructions of true Teacher, is impossible forcedly (somehow) understand by means of thought. 5. Xiao Tingzhi, famous Daoist of Southern Song Dynasty (has written many Daoist treatises) quotes Zhang Boduan and his Teacher Liu Haichan: 玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。 What about holy books of talented people, out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. Wise Teachers transmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centuries, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes [4] and smart as 10 sages [5] and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus. It is what called (that famous quote from Zhang Boduan): Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min, without meeting a true Teacher, you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses. Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching, from what place would you learn how to conceive the spiritual fetus? Patriarch Lui Haichan said in verses: This Dao is extremely clear, so what is the reason to muddy it (turn into chaos) by thinking? If you do not meet a true Teacher, truly impossible to understand the Dao of Golden Elixir. [4] 3 heroes 三傑 sānjié – a) associates of Liu Bang, Han dynasty; associates of Liu Bei, founders of Shu kingdom, Three Kingdoms epoch. [5] 10 sages – students of Confuci. 6. 修真十書 Ding Yuan treatise about impossibility to understand without a Teacher: First comes the same quote from Zhang Boduan: 饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。 And then: 袁公輔曰：千經萬論，止載修丹事理，至於下手結交，火侯幽微，非遇師親授，縱才過顏閔，則不可曉。 In thousands of canons and numberless treatises only principles of practice in cultivation of the elixir are being recorded, what about transmission of the beginning practice and subtleties of the periods of fire – without meeting a true teacher even if you surpass Yan and Min in talents, yet you wouldn't be able to know (understand). 7. Treatise of famous Li Daochun of Yuan's dynasty is saying that without a teacher it is a plain silliness: 中和集 元李道純撰 若不遇真師點化，皆妄為矣。 If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions. 8. Patriarch Lü Dongbin’s treatise: 悟真篇》云：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真人莫強猜。蓋丹經所陳，或假物以明理，或設象以寓意，名義不同，學者卒然讀之，莫不有望洋之欺。且以五行言之，或日金木，或日金土，或日水火，或日金火，或日金水，或日木火，或日水土，使人心目俱眩 In the beginning there are the words of Patriarch Zhang Boduan (from the previous quote). Then – that there are a lot of stuff in texts (this is compared to the ocean) and learner is [only] getting confused by such a studies. Further there are some alchemy terms and saying that souls of people are getting more and more confused because of it… 9. Patriarch Ge Hong, Baopuzi: 吾非生而知之，又非少而信之，始者蒙蒙，亦如子耳，既觀奧祕之宏修，而恨離困之不早也。 五經之事，注說炳露，初學之徒，猶可不解。豈況金玉札，神仙之經，至要之言，又多不書。 登壇歃血，乃傳口訣， 苟非其人，雖裂地連城，金璧滿堂，不妄以示之。 夫指深歸遠，雖得其書而不師受，猶仰不見首，俯不知跟 所謂不知而作也。 I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy) and it also may not be said that I believed in it (alchemy) being very young. At the beginning I was the same immature and ignorant as you. But when I began to observe the great mystery of powerful cultivation methods I regretted that I was released from all that difficulties this late. In deeds of studying 5 canons explanations and commentaries assist much, irrigating them (canons) like a pure dew. But for beginners much remains unclear yet. It is even more true applied to the golden plates and jade pages where the Teachings of Immortality are written on. Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there at all. The Altar is being build, lips are being moistened with blood and only then, after vow of keeping silence is sealed this way, secret instructions are being transmitted from mouth to mouth. If it happens that a person is not suitable for transmitting him these mysteries even if he gives (to alchemy teacher) huge lands and entire lines of cities, fill up halls with gold and jade, he wouldn't get a thing (teaching) anyway. (no one would teach him recklessly). Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't received them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them: he looks up - and wouldn't see head, he looks down - wouldn't see feet. It is said right about this: "Not knowing, yet doing". 10. 吕祖全书 Complete compendium of writings of Patriarch Lü (Lü Dongbin) 自古圣贤佛仙，罔非从师授业，而后悟道。 书曰：『能自得师者王，谓人莫己若者亡。好问则裕，自用则小。 帝王且然，况凡民乎？人惟自见自是，所以得少为足，不能虚以受人。不知人匪生知，盖由师传。 三教虽殊，尊师则一。即吾门修炼，若不亲受真师口诀，纵熟习丹书，焉能得知切实下手工夫！ 虽极力施功，决无成就。 Since ancient times there were no [cases] of Sages, Buddhas or Immortals haven't learnt from Teachers, only after that (being taught by a Teacher) they attained the Dao. Texts say: a one who is able to attain a Teacher - is Wang (emperor, pefect Ruler), and a one who says that no one could be compared to him (i.e. saying he is a super-genius) would be deposed (die). If it is true for Emperors - then what to say about ordinary people!? Not hesitating to ask (for instruction) - [you] are enriching, [but] only relying on your own abilities - [you are] coming down (weakening). People think of themselves as the only being right, because of this only few are suitable (for studying Dao) and it is forbidden to teach [not suitable] people in vain. Not knowing of vicious inborn qualities of (specific) people it is necessary to transmit through Teachers. Yet Three Teachings (Daoism, Buddhism, Confucianism) have differences but they follow esteeming Teachers (i.e. they esteem Teachers) the same way. And in cultivation by My School if there is no personal transmission of verbal instructions from true Teacher, even if cleverly learn alchemic books, from where would [a one] learn the true practice of initial work? Yet they would work very hard in no case they would achieve success. == End of quotes from texts. == Attentive reader could ask now: “But Patriarchs don’t seem to say that you need to start your study with finding a Teacher – why do you quote these words here as the first step?” Actually every person has his/her own individual way. This way can start with qigong or martial arts (as it was in my case) or anything else. It can go left and right, up and down or even loop sometimes. People are different so if you feel you need to study something (no matter in Daoism or Buddhism or let’s say physics) – it is absolutely ok and may be very useful and for you. And finding a true Teacher is also not a kind of task that would be easy to do. It may require some preliminary research to be able at least to distinguish between true and false teachers and schools. Since ancient times and up to nowadays there always have been numerous false teachers who claimed they know everything. And those who have fondly believed them ended their lifes same as ordinary people... But maybe somewhere later, when a person becomes settled up on his/her way to the Dao of Ancient Immortals and is ready to start the Practice of initial work – these words of Patriarchs would become extremely useful and meaningful to him / her. Same important these words would be to any person who would like to start Ancient Dao Practice as soon as possible. So the answer to the question “why do you quote these words here as the first step?” is – because it actually is a first step in the Practice of attaining Dao of Ancient Immortals. 2016-12-20 A.A.Khokhlov

Yes yinshen is actually a ghost. And Daoism says when a person looses his yuanqi (dies) he becomes a ghost. What happens next - is a separate issue... Yes yangshen can manifest himself physically and do deeds in an outer world. It is said that immortal is not loosing his consciousness, moreover he attains super-consciousness. Yangshen is connected with the body, but will not die if the body dies. Teacher of Single Yang has visited our (His) branch in Russia in 2008. We are traveling China for corrections and Teaching by Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Schools several times a year. The answer is in the first message of the current topic. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Good question. These terms (repleneshing yuanqi / yuanjing) are oftenly used without distinguishing between them. The detailed instructions are for students of certain level. Lets be more precise here. I am talking about Dao of WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools. Which corresponds to teaching of many ancient Masters of Daozang. We call it Traditional Daoism. For me it seems that to practice Traditional Daoism you need to be a part of Tradition and cultivate according to it. If you are practicing on your own and get benefits from it - well, I would say it is excellent! Sincerely. Being an instructor, it's my duty to add two points about it: 1) My Teachers have warned me about possible dangers of cultivating without a teacher which may come with time (i.e. high risk). And as an insturctor I have to mention it. 2) Different methods and ways, different understanding of texts - all of it obviously can lead to different results, isn't it? I appreciate every person practicing and spreading Daoism greatly (except the cases when person intentionally discredit it with fakes, spam etc.), no matter of methods. And by the way. Shouldn't Daoist results make people more flexible, more open to new? For example, if one day I meet a person who is practicing himself, without a teacher and will be able to demonstrate me real results, either in unusual understanding (answering questions - about bagua and there are much more...) or in practice (there are certain signs on the body, energetic field and appearance) - I would willingly teach from him. Or if he is of the same level as me - it would be great to exchange the experience. And yes - one of the first questions I would ask is: "How were you able... by yourself? Please tell me!" However I would never betray my School, no matter how powerful people or methods I met. Well... Daozang Patriarchs said differently: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/ But if you are talking about some kind of your Dao (comparing to the Dao of Traditional WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools) - it is ok. Please see this diagram I've prepared (click to enlarge): It is almost true. However it is like explaining a schoolboy "in a minute" how to build, launch, manage International Space Station and make it last forever. In theory - well, of course a child can somehow memorize everything... But in practice the chance is decreased with every additional word of such a teacher. I would estimate a chance of failure something like 99.999999999....% The names are symbolic and it is obvious. But what do symbolize timespans? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

WuLiupai is a tradition consisting of the great School, its treatises (including modern ones!), Teachers, holy places and thousands of followers. And what is "awaken's tradition"? No texts, no followers, no teachers, no school. Only one (well, two as we see in these topics) humans pretending to be makeshift teachers. These senseless attacks seem to become boring to all fellow members...

Probably this: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/ can shed some light on your question. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Please don't hesitate to ask again if you have some questions unanswered. Sometimes spam comes from some members and valuable messages may be lost inside. 1) About "showing" - please see my answer above. 2) However there are demonstartions from high-level Brothers and Teachers but each demonstration comes only after you reache certain stage. 3) So you say in Yin-Yang world everything comes to its end. I would say differently: the "end" violates Yin-Yang law. 4) However becomming immortal means a person overcomes Yin-Yang law, see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/ 5) Hair can become black because of: hair dye, some kind of temporary medical therapy... or going back to youth. Please don't forget hair is only a sign of the result, not the result itself. And finally to your main question - how can xiantian and houtian be connected? Easily: a human spread yuanqi to live and do deeds in the outer world. So the connection exists. In Alchemy we use the reversed process to collect back yuanqi and become Xian (immortal). Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Dear Ormus, p.8 - the text from Daozang consists of Lu Dongbin words and the commentary part, these words are from the commentary. The only simple rule about Teacher's level is: student (in Alchemy) can not go above his Teacher's level. Renxian can teach you how to become Renxian, Dixian - how to become Dixian and so on. But don't forget that your Teacher has his own Teacher and entire School with extremely high-level Masters and if for some reason a student overcomes his Teacher - he will not be blocked. The only true is: every person is a blockage to himself, and no more blockages exist. Moreover the higher level Master is - the higher level dangers he has. And if there is only a single person (not School) - who will help in case of accidents? About "feeling of having excellent teachers" - well... Simple example: a lot of people in the world eat fastfood and "feel they eat excellent". But health problems come with time. Unfortunately in the modern world people loose the true feelings more and more. Why "showing magic" is not that perfect way you may think? Remember David Blane or David Copperfield. Have they shown you magic? Yes. What do you think of it? It's a trick. True. Thank you for kind words Robert. The words of Patriarchs from this topic 100% correlate with my own experience, with experience of my Teacher and my brothers and sisters in Russia and China. That is what gives us all confidence. Yes. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

We will start with answering several questions I got so far. Yes, it is correct. This body would be still subtle - of pure yang, but might be manifested in real world physically. Do you remember of that story from Zhang Boduan where taoist and buddhist flied with their spirit to a far away mountain and taoist returned back with a flower from that mountain while buddhist's hands were empty? As such a teacher's level is much higher than student's, student has no way to assess him. However in Taoism there is a physical demonstration on yangshen abilities which can be shown by high-level teacher. It is very uncommon for the beginners to be honoured by such a demonstration. I can't say at the moment anything about any results unspecific for taoism. This needs investigation. You can read about the hisory of WuLiupai School here and here. WuLiupai School is currently not accepting Western students so there is no much sense in discussing it. Most of your questions could be answered "yes". Our School has contacts with representatives of Tibetian buddhism and yes there are some intersections. But we are mostly focused on studying Taoism and can't say you definitely about Tibetian concepts. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

E.A.Torchinov was a genius of 20 century. There were no computers, no internet, no electronic dictionaries. The process of translation was: 1) See a new term. 2) Manually seek for it in 20 (and more) different dictionary books (real books). 3) If some of dictionary entries are not clear - seek for its terms' descriptions and so on. 4) Go to China to find rare dictionaries to take back home. 5) Communicate in China with Chinese researchers asking for their explanation of some parts of text... 6) Repeat pp.1-5 more and more. Nowadays almost any person can call himself a translator, only having a computer (howevery, with lack of translation quality and numerous mistakes). But E.A.Torchinov and other translators of previous century - were greatest professionals without any doubts. And they deserve great respect from every modern translator and daoist. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov