A.A.Khokhlov

With a great please we are going to share soon the words and teachings of our Teachers in China. I am sure it would be useful for everyone. Regarding your words. Do you know one ancient name of Taoism? It is HuangLaoxue. Huang is for Huangdi and Lao is for Laozi, both regarded as founders of this xue - Teaching. And here is an ancient historical record about Huangdi's actions: 於是軒轅乃習用幹戈以征不享諸侯鹹來賓從 He (Huangdi) begun to train in using weapons and by means of it in military expiditions he chastised those who refused to give him gifts. So the founder of the Teaching you respect (Taoism) was doing such an "cruel things". I am not evaluating Huangdi's actions however it is true that modern world is too Yin and has lack of Yang inside. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

You are like a spoiled kid. If you would be lucky enough one day you will meet a teacher who will use Yin and Yang to help you change. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

So "Taoist texts" you say you are "practicing" by yourself - no school, teacher, nothing and "got your results". Lets see what understanding a person can get without a True Teacher: Please decribe the houtian bagua sequence from the alchemy practice perspective. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

So "Taoist Texts" did you finally manage to understand what Taoist Patriarchs are talking us about?

Unfortunately here we see one more nonsense passage from you. But lets check. 學者之十迷九八 Out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. 實難知之矣 Truly impossible to understand that.

Thank you for your invitation. But so far you are blaming ancient Taoist Patriarchs being honoured by the Tradition and still given no answer to a simpliest questions. 1) Can you please answer in simple words what 上徳不徳是以有徳下徳不失徳是以無徳 is about? 2) How would you comment on 有德澤流後世 and 上含淳德以遇 usages of 德 (you can see full quotes in message #111)? 3) Could you please decribe the houtian bagua sequence from the alchemy practice perspective? (simpliest question for those who have been initiated into a true Taoist School). Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

You've once again sat in a puddle (nice Russian saying describing a person doing stupid things). CTA is how they officially name themselves in English and we have documents confirming that. And they use this name not without a reason: 中国 C 道教 T 协会 A. Are even these simple characters being twisted in your head? Of course we are recognized. And even now if you talk to CTA officials in Beijing and epsecially in some specific regions (I won't name you which) you would see our School is treated with the greatest respect. Yes they won't give you a paper now because of anti Falungong laws but the documents we have are quite enough for everyone. To see these documents one have to visit our main branch in Saint-Petersburg. But particularly you would be left profane, not admitted into the Temple. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Now lets continue the discussion of necessity of having a Teacher in ancient Patriarch's precepts. By the message cited above we have intentionally checked our opponents on knowing and understanding Zhan Boduan's texts. And we found no understanding, just own interpretations and guessings based on nothing (if you actually have any basement you are still welcome to share). Why? Because texts of the Daozang itself are unequivocal about necessity of having a Teacher. You may take a look and ascertain it yourself: 2. Text and commentary of Lui Dongbin confirming misunderstanding Neidan without a Teacher: 純陽真人沁園春丹詞注解 不因師指此事爭知 《悟真篇》云：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真人莫強猜。蓋丹經所陳，或假物以明理，或設象以寓意，名義不同，學者卒然讀之，莫不有望洋之欺。且以五行言之，或日金木，或日金土，或日水火，或日金火，或日金水，或日木火，或日水土，使人心目俱眩，誠不易知也。 3. Commentary of taoist 翁葆光 to Zhang Boduan's Wuzhenpian is also for that: 紫陽真人悟真篇註疏 南宋翁葆光注 饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。 只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。 註曰：千經萬論，惟布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印。未遇真師，徒勞口耳。此道非真師口訣，雖有顏閔之聰慧，亦不可強自猜度也。 4. Here (beyond other) necessity of transmission from true teacher confirms Xue Daoguang, 3rd patriarch of Southern Neidan School, where the 1st Patriarch was Zhang Boduan himself: 紫陽真人悟真篇三註 　　經名：紫陽真人悟真篇三註。五卷，北宋張伯端原著，南宋薛道光、陸墅，元陳致虛注。 道光曰：千經萬論，唯布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印，未遇真師，強猜不得。 　　子野曰：非師口訣真要，則從何處而下手。 上陽子曰：九流百家，一應藝術，皆可留之紙上，或可以智慧猜曉而知，唯獨金丹一事，非得真師逐節指示，不可強以意會。或者得師略言鼎器，而不知藥生之時，亦不成丹。既知藥物，不知火候，亦不成丹。既知火候，而不顛倒，亦不成丹。既知顛倒，而不知煉己細微，亦不成丹。 5. Zhang Boduan's teacher Liu Haichan about the impossibility of having an achievements in Neidan without a Teacher: 金丹大藥，古人以萬劫一傳。玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。 6. 修真十書 treatise (Ding Yuan) says that you won't understand without a teacher: 饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。 袁公輔曰：千經萬論，止載修丹事理，至於下手結交，火侯幽微，非遇師親授，縱才過顏閔，則不可曉。 7. Treatise of famous Li Daochun of Yuan's dynasty is saying that without a teacher it is a plain silliness: 中和集 元李道純撰 若不遇真師點化，皆妄為矣。 If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions. And later Li Daochun quotes words of Zhang Boduan himself: 紫陽真人曰：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真師莫強猜。正謂此也 Don't you find here too many solidary taoist Patriarchs against two ignoramuses? Or should we continue? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Few questions to you then. 1) How do you understand famous 上徳不徳是以有徳下徳不失徳是以無徳 ? 2) This ancient usage of 徳 shows us its relation to something more than just one's heart, something that can be inherited by descendants: 非以其先之有德澤流後世邪行道德豈可以忽乎哉 . 3) Another one: 上含淳德以遇其下 which says about De being contained inside of a person. (opposite to just having some characteristic like being kind). BTW, still hope to get your answer about houtian bagua sequence. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Once again here you make a statement you know nothing about. Do you know of difference of how official CTA (yes correct acronym was a tiny test) had treated 派's before the Falungong and after the Falungong? 德 is an ancient term, it appeared before Daodejing. Daodejing describes the role of De in alchemic practice. 德 can not originate from India. Simply because it is an ancient Chinese character and might not be a phonetic adoption from Sanscrit. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Please see the answer here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/#entry724021 Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

In terms of culture from our experience Russia is indeed located between China and the West. So it is quite far away from the East but not completely at the West yet. Probably this is the reason. (But you are right becoming a true WuLiupai student is not an easy task for Russian as well.) I can't completely exclude such possibility, it is up to our Teachers. As it being said in China: If you have fate - you will meet [with a Teacher] over 1000 li, if you don't - staying on one crossroad you wouldn't recognize each other. By the way this saying once again links progressing in Taoism with finding a true Teacher. If you want to practice Traditional Neidan I suggest you to start with Yuxianpai methods. Yuxianpai School is self-sufficient in terms of Neidan System, most of the students will find there everything they want. Yes I remember your request, please don't worry we will process it soon. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov P.S. So far we don't have a single WuLiupai student from the West. That makes any claims about "WuLiupai money" absolutely nonsence.

I haven't heard they officially name Mopai an alchemy school. Moreover I'm not familiar with Mopai methods. But I can point your own investigation. Any neidan school must come from a certain ancient master. There are no exclusions of "self-appeared" neidan masters over the ages. So if any school says it has neidan methods it should explicitly point out from whom it has inhereted neidan from. If there is no linage - no alchemy. Haven't heard of anything like this. Such things may have some relation to religious methods like "I pray to Guanyin and will become immortal after death" but it is only belief. The history know of no realized masters without a teacher and a school. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Few more clarifications for participants . 1. Article about sitting meditations from the modern Patriarch of WuLiupai: http://all-dao.com/dazuo-meditation.html 2. "Awaken", if you allow yourself to defame Taoists being honoured by the Tradition, you obviousely should understand the Taoist Tradition very well. So it would be easy for you to give an answer to the simpliest questions (simpliest for those who have been initiated into a true Taoist School): What does houtian bagua sequence mean from the alchemy practice perspective?3. Please clarify some points about this: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42657-why-do-you-say-school/page-15#entry723793 Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Because making false genealogy is betraying one's ancestors. It is the worst thing Chinese can do as it breaks 孝. Our School has documents from Taoist Association of China with our Patriarch's name as the head of the School. These documents are being stored in our branch in Russia. The whole School genealogy is written and being recongized by alchemists of our School and other Schools in China. Imposter can't become head of the School. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

It is not a translation, I've posted the translation earlier. This is my explanation for those who can't distinguish between two messages. Firstly, maintaining good name of the School is a duty of any its student Secondly, De is a practical result of one of the alchemic stages and doesn't conflict with first. If you study taoist texts you should have met a lot of examples of Patriarchs critique against self-proclaimed false teachers.

Our Patriarch's family has genealogy. If you've ever been to China you should know how Chinese people treat their roots. Our School has documents from Taoist Association of China with our Patriarch's name as the head of the School. These documents are being stored in our branch in Russia. And by the way immortal as Wu Chongxu have everlasting life where he can do whatever he decides right.

Whom? Ok. This is work for moderators. By the way in the first chapter of HuiMingJing there is something about De and some more specific conditions for a person who is seeking for a chance to attain the Dao. Knowing your history Patrairch Liu wouldn't give you a one.

Don't get confused - politeness and asking only look similar. One message from this forum (one among hundreds of real life-changing results we have in our Center): Ish, I can attest to the demonstrable results of the school. I was very sick and close to death, hospitalized twice and suffered from a complete body shutdown the 2nd time I was in the hospital. After I began Daogong, within the first week of training my symptoms improved. Every so often I have a bad day, but now I am able to function like a completely normal person and I have only been training for a little over 1 year. No other system has been able to do that for me, not SFQ, not Vajrasattva Qigong, not Yang Style Taiji and not even Buddhist Medical Qigong that I learned from a temple. There is definitely something within this tradition that sets it apart from anything else. Whereas 90% of modern qigong is imbalanced in some way and can only help certain people, Daogong (which is level -1) can benefit anyone. It can benefit anyone because it is totally balanced in all aspects. It is not a translation, I've posted the translation earlier. This is my explanation for those who can't even distinguish between two messages. Can you please point us to any source of this statement? Like historical chronicle, taoist text, etc. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

And you declares you understand Liu Huayang not being able to understand my simple words? You probably misread something. There is no "Because" and no "to" in Chinese text. If you would like to correct some Chinese WuLiupai imposters please use Chinese forums for it. If you are not able to do it - we can try. Being official representatives of WuLiupai School we care of it's good name as well as of health and fate of its students. If you really want to help students of any possible WuLiupai imposters in China I publicly ask you to write Chinese names (+ any contacts) of students who you think are being fooled and especially - names and contacts of instructors in China who are teaching them. I am willing to recieve the above either publicly or privatly, in PM or by email [email protected]. We will contact these people as well as leaders of our School in China to resolve the situation. You can think you have learnt, but actually you didn't. Same as Liu Huayang himself writes and same as writings of numerous Patriarchs, without having verbal teaching from true Teacher you wouldn't be able to get the alchemy result. And we are not only basing on the texts as you do. We are basing on the text explained to us verbally by modern WuLiupai Patriarch who is a direct descendant of Wu Chongxu (not only in School, but even genetically) and recieved full family transmission from his Ancestors.

饶君聪慧过颜闵，不遇真师莫强猜。 Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min, Without meeting a true teacher you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses. It says everything you can do without the teacher - is making guesses 只为金丹无口诀，教君何处结灵胎。 Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching, From what place would you learn how to concieve the spiritual fetus? It says of self-made fake "golden elixir". Both quotes say you can't complete Dao without true Teacher. Empty words. More specifically please.

Thank you! One of the reasons is that WuLiupai transmission principles doesn't suit modern Western culture well. I.e. it would be extremely hard for people to fulfil the requirements for students. This limitation would have been really pity but later our WuLiupai Teachers in China inroduced us to Patriarch of Yuxianpai School which is a real treasure for the modern world and is much more easier to start practice. It is what we teach our Western students now. At least no such cases in Taoism history. I also have a personal opinion on this. Please don't understand me wrong. The treatises have great influence and all our students are studying them. They help in practice and understanding of the taoist principles. However the same writings say that without a true Teacher there is no way for a person to complete the perfection. For example one of the most secret sections of taoist knowledge is the first stage - laying the foundation. Not finishing the first stage how can you get good results in further? Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

The balance only seems to be subjective. Lets return to the example with taste. In both deviations from balance - eating nothing and eating everything person would get sick. And would be healthy only in the point of balance. This balance is not subjective (being determined by person's mind), it is objective, being determined by the laws of nature (structure of human body). Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

Actually no. You were so confident of what needs to be done with my students so I wondered if you are basing on something... But if you want you may deepen your practice more and more, one day it may lead to becoming a teacher. Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

1. 張伯端 Zhang Boduan 饶君聪慧过颜闵，不遇真师莫强猜。 Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min, Without meeting a true teacher you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses. 只为金丹无口诀，教君何处结灵胎。 Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching, From what place would you learn how to concieve the spiritual fetus?