ilumairen

I would be very much honored if you would choose a book for me Daeluin - something that shares more of the Taoist understanding you shared here.

Daeluin - thank you.

Your laughter is contagious.

:sigh: A quick search shows he's another one who was able to form great ideas because there have always been others holding him up, admiring him, taking care of him. *************** How does a guru who was always held up as a guru become a great anti-guru?

Hahaha Now this is funny!!! :feeling rather relieved: Is Krishnamurti worth looking at?

Yes and no. We think alot. We imagine things. We project and question and wonder. And sometimes we create the illusion of seperation. And sometimes we add so much mind weight to our illusions of seperation that they become the such so that we tell ourselves we are. ********* What I like to call forgetting is really a too much remembering.

No dead ends, and dead ends everywhere. Meaning is a game we like to play with ourselves. And I'm not talking about the meaning of words this time. I'm talking about the big meaning of life thing that we like looking for.

Reading Alan Watts I came across the idea that we are the universe waving at itself. I liked that and have come back to it time and again. We are the universe questioning itself, answering itself, telling stories to itself. We are also meaningless specks of dust. Creators, destroyers.. and human. Oh so very human. And for all our grand thoughts and ideas, here we sit. ******************* Good morning Everything.

Alright.. the walking away was a projection. Seeking the Heart of Wisdom - Goldstein and Kornfield It is the only Kornfield I've read; someone else chose it for me long ago. And after perusing the first chapter I'm reminded of the fact that I'm not Buddhist.

Shared squiggly lines have to have agreed upon meanings, or they remain nothing more than squiggly lines - perhaps interesting to look at, but essentially pointless. I like to simplify things, and honestly I was wondering if you were one of those internet gurus who likes to pop in, say pithy wise sounding things, and then wander off without adding anything of substance. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. There's just not much there to engage with. Finally I see a glimmer of something more. Nice to meet you. I'm Des. I'm still forgetful sometimes. I'm not a guru or a sage or a master, but I'm still walking. If you want to walk along and discus J K, I'll have to go rummaging through the boxes in the closet. It's been years since I read his words, but perhaps we could have some interesting discussions. Your call. (Unless you go all pithy guru on me... then I reserve the right to walk away.)

Thank you Steve. No, it wasn't considerate, but it was honest from his perspective. You suspect correctly, and she knows. The rest does not matter.

Yes we are. :warm smile:

I just know you like it there - seems a pleasant place to be. We had our first frost last night and the dahlias and zinnias both responded by becoming muted tan/brown tissue paper looking manifestations of their former exhuberantly colorful selves. An airplane flew overhead, but no aliens have come to visit my garden either.

I suspect our paths are just different 3bob. For me it is not a game of baseball, but cycles of remembering/forgetting. We are already there, but sometimes we focus so intently on one aspect of the manifest that there isn't any room left for openness. We forget, and a breath later we can remember. For some it is different, but comparisons of this nature don't seem healthy. (see above ) The word 'of' is of consequence in where I saw the words pointing. 'Of' - as in pertaining to. A reduction of the phrase to 'true life' would change the meaning yet again, and I would likely have taken that to indicate the merging of mystery and manifest - the experience of both simultaneously. I do not know which path that you follow - only that it isn't mine. Thank you for your time.

I think that's the point Everything is looking everywhere and running into dead ends. Hi Everything. Is there a breeze flowing through your garden today?

I planted the weeds too. Everytime I justified her behavior to somebody she was hurtful to I watered those weeds. I held onto her stories in ways I do not hold my own, and that attention allowed the roots to grow strong. Time to set the girl down, and make dinner. Thanks Songtsan. You helped me see the missing puzzle piece.

I remember arguing against Jung back in my college days, so I have no issue with you taking issue with his colorful use of the phrase 'true spirit of life' - which carries a slightly different meaning than your 'true life of spirit'. To me 'spirit of life' points to manifest, while 'life of spirit' points to mystery. Whether he intentionally twisted a phrase, or was just being enthusiastic I do not know. Whether you are just being enthusiastic or intentionally twisting a phrase I do not know. Did he invert? Did you invert? Do the inversions serve a purpose? Perhaps yes. Both could be useful. *********** In my personal experience those who work the hardest to deny darkness within themselves manifest the most darkness around themselves. As noted in the post you point to, it is generally in the form of projection.

There is no anti-ziran in my understanding; there can't be. 'Such-so-ness' is the manifest state of any/everything. Forgetting you have something is not the same as not having something. We cannot act outside of nature; it is impossible. There is ziran even without awareness of ziran. BUT awareness can/does change how our ziran manifests in any given moment. And I think this is where we are tripping over each other's words.

We can be more in tune with others when we remember. Remembering makes navigating the manifest easier and more peaceful.

Do you have any thoughts on the difference between acceptance and justification?

Ok You're talking the big capital T truth while we were discussing little t truths of manifest experience and moments. Thanks for clearing that up.

Guy de Cheliak's great treatise and the art movement dance macabre were both responses to the black death - one a (not so very) arid scholarly work, the other expression of the darkness within. Both have root in the truth of the time and shared experience. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. (PS Sorry if I butchered Guy's last name. He was the physician to the pope during the black death, and should be easily found online if such a search is of interest.)

Hi daomon, You seem to have found your path, and it is understandable that you be rather exuberant about what you've found to work for you (and yes, many others as well). Thank you.

Yeah expansion instead of explosion. Bang is a misnomer, but still convenient as people know what's being referred to. And you're right there's really no reason to concern ourselves with before, as there is no knowing. It just raises my curiosity sometimes. There had to be some dynamic at play...

Hi leth, The idea seems to be there is nothing to achieve. We're already there. We just forget. Some people are more forgetful than others. Sages are less forgetful, or perhaps not forgetful at all. I don't know. I still forget sometimes.