ilumairen

He asked: My laying out the conversation and how he appeared to avoid directly responding to my querie was to highlight what is, in fact, frustrating to me, and an honest response - even if it isn't pretty. imo shitty would be pretending it's all sweet smelling roses without any thorns, or pm'ing somebody's SO about the person - instead of talking with them directly about any confusion or concerns.

Steve responded: Jeff responded: And I sought clarification on what clearly looked to be intended as refutation: And now we're at ice cream. A quote of W.C. Fields comes to mind, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit." Jeff, if you're actually interested in what I find frustrating in our interactions then don't set either/or suppositions before me, or make assumptions, but actually PM me and ask.

Thank you for the attempt. :written with pursed lips: I recall using a similar analogy regarding an orange, to highlight the importance of practice. What the hell do you think "experientially (through practice) explored" means, if not "discovering the taste for oneself"? And why would you believe a regurgitation of what I presented with many more words would clarify anything of what you posited regarding the heart sutra and understanding? Perhaps I should have written the phrase "explored through practice", instead of assuming "experentially (through practice) explored" would cover what I was pointing towards, and that you would make a genuine effort to understand - instead of taking another opportunity to set yourself above and pontificate like I'm some sort of child who has never tasted ice cream. I know you don't understand my frustration with the words you sometimes share and the manner in which you share them, and while I'm going to take a brief break for the moment, we can certainly take this to PM and perhaps come to some understanding.

For me the phrase is, "park my ass." Thank you for the well thought out and illuminating reply. Warm regards and best wishes

Thank you for explaining your position. The mind, as appearance, would itself be empty.. and I'm failing to see why "mind" could not potentially recognize it's empty nature. And 'round and 'round we go... You wrote: There is a presupposition in this statement. You are (apparently) refuting an idea of scripture leading to mental understanding, although it is a mentally constructed sharing of understanding - which can be contemplated, intellectually and experentially (through practice) explored to verify (or deny) it's veracity. Which would then enable another to share in the understanding, or disagree if something is found to be "off". Although in this case, if something is found to be "off" it is (imo) an indication of misunderstanding. Soo, I don't understand, or see, what would have been set forth by anyone here to warrant what appears to be a refutation on your part.

Rinpoche said the same in teaching guru yoga. Trust is very important. And while one is working with tantric practices there are first only glimmers, and then moments of "abiding" as the form is dissolved and we rest for as long as the experience "remains fresh".

This I would agree with. Please explain the manner in which you intend the phrase "beyond the mind" to be understood. Do you separate appearance and emptiness? This isn't necessarily what's being said, and the argument may be another strawman fallacy, although I do not understand your position well enough to thoroughly determine if this is the case or not. Please clarify both the assertion you believe you are refuting, and your refutation.

Not sure if this belongs here, or in it's own thread. In any case it's presented for consideration. https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Thank you for your disagreement. My little squiggly shared lines on the screen were dependent in their arising, and a simplification as the question asked seemed best answered in such a manner. I like the manner in which things were laid out in the book Journey to Certainty, from coarse intellectual understanding through the arising of experiential understanding.. to certainty. I don't believe I would use the same words you have, but certainly accept the sentiment of deeper understanding. Dependent arising is an aid in seeing emptiness, the inseperability of appearance and emptiness, and quite "useful" imo and ime at lessening both grasping and aversion - what seems to me to be the basis of obstructing expression, or missing (losing awareness of) our connection to the natural state. Warm regards, and thanks for the expression and exploration.

Thank you for trying. Something will eventually manifest..

:laughing: Can't really provide a quote I've yet to find. I did find you referencing Norbu in a thread in your ppd, and have started going over the book you quoted. Thanks.

Oi vey. You didn't come up with the analogy, and I'm pretty sure @Jonesboy shared the Norbu quote I was looking for somewhere around here, or at least referenced it. Are you aware of which book it is in? And yes, I understand you didn't mean the analogy as a reference to a particular kind of consciousness, and at the same time I'd like to understand the analogy as it has been presented by past masters - and come to be something of a "collective understanding" - or at least lend itself to (assumption of) such.

The blackboard (as expressed in Heart Essence of the Khandro) is a reference to a particular type of consciousness called Kunzhi Namshe, and the drawings on the blackboard are like a storehouse of karmic traces. Sutra and Tantra are said to leave "traces" while in Dzogchen the Kunzhi Namthe liberates into empty nature, and the blackboard no longer exists. And in this opening exploration in the book I just cited, the traces on the blackboard are understood to be difficult to remove, although easy to explain. The only other reference to a chalkboard I'm presently recalling was something from Norbu, although at the moment I'm not 100% on which book it was in. Do you know? : momentarily curious about the analogy :

I have an aversion to the word exactly, and generally when I see it I wish to walk away, and when I use it generally means the person I'm responding to would be best served by walking away. But.. it basically means whatever object you see is dependent in it's arising and impermanent. Pick something, and explore it for yourself - see if you can separate a thing from emptiness.

The chalk has form and form is empty.. think heart sutra.

crash :smiles and waves at Zero:

:laughing: In this she would/could signify the union of samsara and nirvana - simultaneously present and dependent upon the view.

Would this be dependent upon emptiness being separated from appearance?

Appearance and emptiness are not separate. The naked girl is an expression of emptiness, the dancing is an expression of the dynamic union of appearance and emptiness.

In my experience when grasping/aversion and/or any form of linguistic thought arose the experience dissipated. It was very much a healing and learning experience in subtlety and expression of emptiness. Perhaps a gift from the inner guru, or subconscious healing, or a boon from the mother. I do not know, and even now ascribing it to any one thing seems wrong. My reason for sharing, is the experience arose in silence, and fell away with any grasping at "I", "this experience", "my pleasure", and in this would actually be a pretty darn good teaching (against grasping) for those attempting to re-experience past pleasure (arguably teaching them to be "grounded in pure awareness" to use your words). Eventually the process "shifts", and moves upwards - naturally ime.

Thank you for sharing the practices and understanding of your lineage. This brought to mind outer ruschen.

The experience of the "negative emotion" is the doorway - an opportunity. And this, imo, is what is being referred to when the phrase "working with negative emotions" is used. And in this, again imo, it is an appropriate and clear phrase. This seems kinda circular to me. Are you perhaps speaking towards experiencing the emotion, letting the words fall away, and then experiencing only the energetic essence?

Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060928972/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_NVycDbKJCSVE6 Best wishes.

It depends on the interaction. Yesterday I spent about an hour messaging with my dad who literally lives a thousand miles away. And because of this, and the time my step brother spends online maintaining his connection to my step mom in spite of a distance of more than a thousand miles, I'm unwilling/unable to write off all online communication as "vapid". I simply do not know what any person I see holding a phone is doing with said phone, and, for me personally, it would be presumptuous to assume I do.

Rideforever, this is "golden" imo.