ilumairen

Ok, let's try this again.. You wrote the following in response to me: After having written this in response to V (in the same post as the above quote) You're contradicting yourself, and pretty soon I'm going to walk away for a bit and give you some time to slow down.. Sometimes slowing down is good.

Calling the person disagreeing with your position "tested nobody and confirmed nothing" fails under both ad hominem and strawman. You have focused on the individual, and made assertions about him. The focus is ad hominem, and the assertions are strawmen. Then you attribute the emotion of "envious" to further dismiss his argument, instead of looking at and responding to the argument, and reference another individual in what appears to be a skewed call to authority.

In third grade I had to get stitches just below an eye - an area they couldn't properly numb, and as I was a child the medical staff expressed intent to strap me to the bed. I gave my dad a look, and he told them they would not be restraining me. I laid perfectly still and unflinching as they sewed my face up - as a child. How many people in the Western world have facial piercings these days? And how many of them would have been given anesthesia? No miracles needed, although putting oneself in a trance like state would plausibly ease any reaction, and the perpetual head shaking mentioned in the article linked to would also mitigate both the individual perception of pain (how many people have you seen "shake out" an area of their bodies that hurt), and distract observers from recognizing the experience of pain in the shaking individuals. In any case, I'm trying to sort out your point, and why you brought this into the discussion.

The answers are as suspected. They summon their divine, and offer themselves as vessels - with only the 'pure' being allowed to do so. My question was more in reference to your apparently contradictory rebuttal than the festival itself. I would honestly prefer if you did not make your arguments personal (for instance calling out what you believe to be personal ignorance), and discuss the subject without belittling the people sharing in the discussion with you.

Giving this one more go. Please follow the link this time @pegasus1992 For your own sake if you like it here

I have seen this numerous times in a variety of circumstances where the common denominator is the sharpness of the instrument doing the cutting. I got a finger caught in one of those handheld weedeaters as a young teen. My reply was, "oops." No vesseling needed.. The more interesting question may be do they practice what JC taught? And as general summaries have been laid out before, I'm just going to link to one:

Used by what or whom? And to what purpose? : jumping back a bit: Invocation being the practice leading to the individuals "manifesting the qualities" to be vessels of the divine? The above makes this look like you're just being a bit snippy at this point. P.S. What is the purpose of the repeated ad hominems? (And straw men?)

What exactly does "vessel" mean to you?

Please don't. Self-mutilation is a sign of mental instability - not spiritual attainment. And I'm finding this rather nonsensical and a bit distasteful.

Yes, you appear to have become his focused embodiment of "the destroyer of magic and possibility," which of course must be fought for principles sake.

I changed my "like" to a "thanks" because this deserves a trophy.

^^^

The willingness to "throw down" is certainly the same.. Good one everything.

Are you stoned?

Why bring the argument in another thread to this one?

It is. And communication on this forum is dependent upon it's ability to form structure from symbol..

A gently flowing brook babbling over the rocks. Drink for inner quenching, or listen for the soothing outer form. :giggling:

Both, neither, one or the other? It's all intermingled.. When we look outward we tend to focus on form. When we look inward the focus tends to be on emptiness. But... one can *inform* the other, and it's a dance.. when it's recognized as such. Until recognition happens we tend to focus on one or the other.. mystery or manifest.. placing one above or beneath the other. Mountain, no mountain, mountain

@Everything Do you ever read other people's posts with an intent to understand, or do the words start arising in your mind before you've even finished reading?

Arising potentialities.. (I find you to be a delightful dancing partner, so please forgive the playfulness of this post.)

It certainly does have to do with potential recognition, but "it" isn't really an "it", and thinking this way makes recognition a wee bit more difficult.

So many words everything .. your words seem a veritable storm. How a ship anchored to emotion is tossed about.. Erratic and ungrounded

Part of the conundrum may lie in how it's being phrased: What changes if we use the phrase "to recognize" or "to realize" in place of "to become" and the word "with" instead of "v.s."? Rewritten: Reconciling the idea of already being complete with the work needed to recognize/realize wholeness.

Psst .. wrong "V" name.

When I was young I tucked money behind window frames, door frames, and under the carpet in my room. It was there. I knew where it was - even if access to it meant ripping out the framework . What people are discussing is a bit more like this than the random ten dollar bill I'd find tucked into an old backpack, although this could apply too I suppose. Ripping out the framework.. well then one can clearly see what was plainly there - even when it was hidden away and not so very plain seeming. Some know 'it's there', and some have forgotten, so we end up with varying viewpoints. It's a conundrum until it's not.. And in the example TT used, it's simply time to clean house.