RigdzinTrinley

Charyapada 23 Poet: Bhusukupada, Raga Barari If you want to go hunting Then kill five people. To enter the lotus-garden Remain single-minded At morning it is alive at night it is dead. Unless he gets the hunter's meat bhusuku will not enter the hut. He caught the maya-deer with the maya-net. I know from Guru whose story it is. The death of the body is not the end of self. The garland remains. The net cannot catch it. Nor can the chains catch the deer. In the restless race the deer vanishes into the void.

Fantastic I had a feeling that the charyagiti might be an interesting subject for the hermetic order of TDB And I for myself learned a lot from these posts so far. I will slowly look into to charyagiti to find the next song to explore (I do have an idea based on what Micheal wrote up there......) Edit: I just remember that I found this scholarly work on the tantric nath order and the author tries to understand the nath sadhus through western esoteric traditions - I had to stop reading it because although he used grand language what he actually had to say wasn't enough to satisfy my apatite. I'm currently looking to find the natheswari pundt somewhere in india and chat with them about their lineage masters, practices etc. (looks like couple of them went to tibet to teach there, and this natha lineage did also hold buddhist vajrayana lineages) Unfortunately not easy to locate that brand of nath babajis

Also I just recognize that on the toth version of the high priestess there are two spheres emanating from her arms that look like the "eyes" or bindu of a peacock feather

In the Indian vajrayana the initiator was mostly female The secret source of the lineage In this first chraryagata I think this fact is obvious - the female is what is to be realized, and also what bestows the initiation into the means of realizing her (She is shown as wielding the vajra, or upaya - she is already in union with upaya or method. Sabara is running around drunk with the world and missing the point, while the true nature is already perfect and in union like nungali pointed out) In light of this dear Micheal can you talk about the second and eleventh trump as the initiator or the principle of initiation??? Thank you

Great posts - I enjoyed the posts very much I don't want to give a pure Buddhist comment because I feel these dohas are in good hands with you guys Only this much I want to add: The union of male and female are a main image or symbol of the charyagiti. I feel its not only limited to tantric sexual yogas but a symbol of enlightenment - non duality Union of female prajna(wisdom, emptiness) and male upaya(method, compassion) The peacock feather ornament I found very interesting, its used a lot in initiations (Hindu or Buddhist Tantra) I would explain it like this: the peacock feather has a bindu on it, a circle that shimmers in different colors, as the female(wisdom) aspect is wearing it as an ornament it might point to the union of emptiness(the girl) and appearance(peacock feather) That meaning is also symbolicaly introduced with the peacock feather, or a mirror in initiations Sabara seems altogether confused and mad and wild - following only his senses and thoughts, emotions he hasn't turned inwards yet -> He(upaya) is lost in duality without wisdom his wife The night transforms to day when they are united, his dualistic mind becomes non dual wisdom Then even the night becomes bliss All is light then, all is morning Also the main gate to the mandala of the deity is in the east (sunrise, morning) The transformation is complete sabaras impure body became the deity through uniting the energies of sun/moon male/female etc.

A question for whoever reads this There is a very important statement in the scriptures, I'll share that statement and would like to hear what you guys think that statement could mean: "Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error" In good debate culture scriptural quotations are only used as a last resort to answer or resolve a difficult point - if possible speak from your own understanding and if enlightened from your own experience

Let's start with that one: The mountains are high, the Sabari girl lives there. She wears peacock feathers. Her neck is adorned with a necklace of gunja berries. O wild Sabara, o mad Sabara, Do not cry of make a noisy complaint. Your own wife is the Sahaja Sundari. The tree blossomed into flowers, the branch touched the sky. Sabari wears ear- ornaments and vajra. She wanders in this forest alone. The bed of three metals is placed. Sabara spreads the bed with great pleasure. Sabara the lover and Sabari his mistress made love into the morning. The heart is a betel leaf, eating camphor with great enjoyment. By embracing the Void in his neck he passes the night in bliss. Consider the Guru's advice as your bow and, with you mind as the arrow, Pierce through Nirvana in one try.

Exactly thats why the the Indian and Tibetan masters say you have to meditate on the absolute or ultimate truth - no need to meditate on the relative Of course it helps to distinguish both - all the teaching on bzhen dbyad or distinguishing come to mind Distinguishing mind and rigpa Consciousness and primordial wisdom (vijnana and jnana) Alaya and dharmakaya etc The above are all tantric methods and teachings From the sutra point of view its important first to establish the conceptual or nominal ultimate correctly so you have something to meditate on Unless you're a spiritual prodigy and naturally get the actual or non conceptual ultimate directly without much learning and contemplation That also means you're a bodhisattva on the bhumis Those cases are very very rare almost unheard of (probably because after getting the main point you're quiet happy doing nothing ) My main teachers generally emphasize both the sutric path and the lamas upadeshas - in equal measures. Two of the old cave yogis I know just teach the upadeshas and kick you out after 1-2days of teaching, and say come back if you have a real question

The literal translations of the Tibetan terms would be "all-concealing" truth and "conventional truth" I can't remember the spelling but phonetic its: kuntsob denpa and tanye denpa "Kun" means all "tsob" has the connotations of lying, concealing or veiling something + denpa which is truth and true also in colloquial usage "all concealing truth" "Tanye" means conventions, words, designations for "denpa" see above "Conventional truth" This two terms are used interchangeably Dondam denpa is usually translated as ultimate truth or absolute truth a more literal one would be "don" = meaning, actual meaning "dam" = sacred, sublime etc. So "the truth of the sublime meaning" or something like that. I still think for our little discussion relative/ultimate is good because most people know those terms

I'm about to go to bed this will need to wait for a night

I doubt that

I have nothing much to say to this

@Michael That will take time, till I can comment I mean I feel so far all of your posts explain parts of this particular Buddhist View I'm thought, yet its also simply different. So till I get an aha or have another question might take a while Its very interesting though Edit: you dear sir might want to have a look at the "charyagiti" an ancient collection of dohas from the nath and Buddhist siddha lineages - I almost feel like starting a discussion in the esoteric section to see how the hermetic TDB order deals and unlocks its "twilight language" - its very beautiful and evocative symbolic language, I think you might enjoy it alot actually

Ya know madhyamika is my jam Doesn't mean its the best and last and ultimate way of establishing the view in order to meditate for all sentient beings who care about such things, but its really an incredible lineage and teaching that liberated many beings and is still alive Neti neti sounds like a great teaching too, so far I never looked at it but I also heard that the advaita Vedanta masters had some incredible reasonings to establish their view, while meditating in shri ramanashram there was no question that a siddha was/is living there, so these teachings liberated many beings as well, and are still alive as a lineage Then there are the nathas etc etc See if I met shankaracharya in person I probably become his disciple same holds true for one of the natha masters as well as tsongkhapa,gorampa or the jonangpa taranatha(a student of a nath - buddhaguptanath from the nath sampradaya, this Indian nath had visions of vajrayogini in bodh gaya and didn't care to make divisions in his yogic practice, lifestyle, view etc.) Karmically I ended up with Longchenpa etc Good to be in a siddha lineage you know nothing to complain from my side EDIT: for the record you did tickle my ego there...

True that - thats also why its important to know your terms very well and what they mean I feel even in tibetan there are terms that are impossible to grasp on first glance - you need explanations, teachings, contemplation and meditative experience to really understand those terms without making up your own thing...

Nice to have you back sir, I hope you'll give us a short explanation of "Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error" as well

Good question 3bob From a madhyamika standpoint if you can posit something that withstands reasoning into reality its called ultimate truth, there is btw nothing that can withstand madhyamika reasoning, not even buddhanature (ultimately there is no ultimate or relative) - here mipham and other Indian and Tibetan masters distinguish the nominal ultimate and the actual ultimate The nominal ultimate is a conceptual idea - a don phyi (meaning generality, or mental image/representation) of actual ultimate truth, that's an important step in the process of realisation btw. Actual ultimate is what a being will "see" the moment they enter the path of seeing and become a first bhumi Bodhisattva (its unthinkable, ineffable and beyond mind) If it can't withstand reasoning its relative truth: vases, pillars etc. - within relative truth there is also correct and incorrect relative truth anyway... Both are called truth right They are both true, in that light: the noble truth of suffering is relative truth not ultimate truth, but it is true on the relative or appearing level If it would be ultimately true then we couldn't attain liberation or buddhahood If one would say that means there is "no suffering" on the relative level then thats a wrong understanding and nihilism, same with bondage and liberation, benefit and harm etc. On the relative level they apply - are relatively real and true Ultimately there are no sentient beings, no suffering, no bondage and no liberation And only an arya bodhisattva can see the union of the two truths directly The ordinary mind can't fully comprehend the union of the two truths so naturally my little scribbles are not satisfactory, because there is no realisation behind them

@Micheal Yes I'll be in correspondence with you once I get the meditations started - also I'll need basic understanding of astrology, an understanding that works well with the G.D. tarot model, any suggestions on that? OK back to the topic, I'm not content yet I think you followed our little Buddhist scribbles here and we in some way established that nirvana doesn't exist as a separate entity, a goal or whatever else distinct from samsara Let me summarize and elaborate on some points we raised and agreed upon (the ones active in the discussion at least seem to agree) The conception of liberation comes from the dualistic mind that is weaving samsara (the error "rnam shes" or vijnana - dualistic perception, when exhausted is nirvanic peace but not something new is gained - some entity called a nirvanic mind or an enlightened mind or jnana, just the error is exhausted -> what is left? Inexpressible, unthinkable beyond mind Ah La La Ho!) Now we could argue well then "Nirvana" is just another illusion, and all illusion needs to be overcome - so if there's ultimately no goal, what's the point of working for sentient beings welfare? why even contemplate and meditate on emptiness? - its all just a conceptual trap, just more dualistic mind sewage!!! but here shantideva tells us that "there is only one illusion permissible for the bodhisattva, that there is a goal" And also here: 75. “if beings,” you will say, “have no existence, Who will be the object of compassion?” Those whom ignorance imputes and vows to save, Intending thus to gain the lofty goal. 76. “Since beings are no more,” you ask, “who gains the fruit?” It’s true! The aspiration’s made in ignorance. But for the total vanquishing of sorrow, The goal, which ignorance conceives, should not be spurned. Shantideva is incredible, 2verses and there is so much in here... I try to explain and share my understanding: So ultimately to think there is nirvana to be gained through abandoning samsara is confusion Even to think that there are suffering beings is ultimately speaking confusion - hallucination Relatively we shouldn't stop striving to attain the goal and work to liberate all sentient beings beings who grasp at a self - suffer through this ignorance, and it makes a lot of sense to give them the highest protection and the best medicine against suffering, namely a correct understanding of reality and tools how to actualize this understanding (Of course first things first, means: without attaining realisation its impossible to really help sentient beings, but a life of total seclusion and total non engagement with the world till full buddhahood is attained is not for everybody) So relatively speaking there is something to do, there is a goal Important to know is that the goal is merely the exhaustion of error this mind made aspiration or wish to attain peace will lead to the exhaustion of error - we could say its a good dualistic mind, something to cultivate till we reach full buddhahood The traditional example that is in line with apech and my discussion on vijnana and jnana (rnam shes ye she) helps to illustrate this: The idea of appearance (stick no1 vijnana) and emptiness (stick no2 vijnana) are rubbed together and the resulting fire (jnana) will consume them both Once all vijnana is exhausted one is called a Buddha The exhaustion of error or vijnana (mind you not to think jnana is a somebody or something or the Buddha is somebody or something ultimately speaking - from the form skandha till the omniscient mind of the Buddha everything is illusion, emptiness) to come back again to "nirvana is the exhaustion of error" but in other words: One such error is the idea of a Nirvana other then samsara or a samsara apart from Nirvana Or even the Union of samsara/nirvana Both bondage and liberation are created by the magician that is our dualistic mind (vijnana) Once that erroneous mind is exhausted there is peace (non abiding nirvana) Peace means freedom from all conceptual elaborations - the dharmakaya Dear Micheal in light of our conversation and my little summary of key points could you try to explain this with the symbolism of the major arcana, to fulfill RT completely? I think its possible and would be very interesting for me and maybe also others

The third garden-house lies in the skies. When the axe within the mind cuts off the illusion, the young maiden 'nairatma' wakes up, like the tight net Bliss with the Void Woman by his side. Discard and leave the live of the world. Sabara is in great Bliss with the Void Woman by his side. In my third house of this great universe Suddenly a beautiful white 'Kapash' bursts open. Look! Moonlight blooms over the garden of the third house. The sky is in full blossom. Kanguchinas are ripe, Sabar- Sabari become intoxicated. Day after day passes and Sabar feels nothing. He is enamoured by great happiness. A four pole bamboo bed is made ; on it Sabara is burnt. For him the jackal and the vultures cried. It is the death of existence. Sacrifice is offered in all ten directions. Sabara met Narvan, Sabara is no more. Caryapada no.50 from the caryagiti

Buddha bean or sentient bean depends on the purity of your perception Are you using your vijnana to see the bean Or jnana to see the bean (Would jnana see a bean or not? And if not how could it benefit beans? But on the other hand if it sees a bean how could it be nonconceptual gnosis?)

I hope you won't start calling me Mr.Bean

Dear brian, Tibetans call me usually Mr.Bean Or when "real" funny they say the second trulku in the sublime rosary of the Mr.Bean incarnation lineage (When ever they find a freakin Mr bean poster they send me a message with a picture of it + a text like "what are you doing in chennai RT?" Tibetan dudes are the masters of pulling your leg for sure

Dear f.o.e and apech, I asked one of my dharma brothers about the differences of blo, sems, rnam shes - he said they all mean the same And this one studied in shedra for 5years at sherab ling, the seat of H.E. Tai Situ Rinpoche, and was very very good at it also, second best in his class; the best of his class became one of the debate partners of H.H. 17th karmapa Many times when I don't get a certain term or concept I just ask him So looks like blo, sems, rnam shes are "don chik ming gi rnam grangs" - synonyms for the same meaning Just used in different lists, like apech mentioned the 8 consciousness model of the cittamatrins (longchenpa uses that one too) The usual 6 of the abidharma: Eye-con. Ear-con. Nose-con. Tongue-con. Body-con. (Mind-con. Tibetan: "yid rnam shes") Plus the famous and mostly misunderstood: The Alaya-con. (All-ground consciousness Tibetan: kun gzhi rnam shes) And the afflicted mind? Klesha mind (Don't remember the good way to translate it right now...) So there they use rnam shes Then when talking about analysis they use blo when talking about mind and nature of mind they use sems and sems nyid respectivly etc. They essentially mean the same: A subjectiv "mind" grasping an object

but dear sir, I rather listen!!! also based on your, nungali and others posts in the tarot bum section (read everything already, why is it so silent in there?) - anyway based on your posts I decided to get me a toth deck when I come back to europe this summer and do the meditations as described in liber T is that the name, I got the ebook from your blog?? (I might write you messages with questions in the process if you are ok with that or just start asking here on TDB to get different answers and so more viewpoints) anyway one question I would have, based on what you wrote: would you say that the fool is like nirvana that is merely the exhaustion of error if yes then why, if no then why not? or would nirvana not be the last trump - "the universe" (is that the name of the card)? and how would you explain the pick of whichever major arcana as a symbol for "nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"