RigdzinTrinley

Well just to say unborn is probably a little strange I can see that Yes Tibetan is ma skyes pa - unborn or unproduced How do you (whoever wants to answer) understand unborn in relation to phenomena?

Being unborn what could depart?

I think he didn't need manjushries council on that one

I think this double posting situation has to do with my phone...

Dear 3bob, I'll try to answer your question (emphasis on try) First a little side note on Gendun chophel: he was trained in the gelug tradition but his views regarding madhyamika are very different then that expounded in most gelug colleges - that's why many a geshe call him a nyigmapa That said The above quote might point to the fact that the gelugpas don't like to negate the relative truth as it appears to ordinary beings (here ordinary beings means those who did not realize emptiness yet, unenlightened beings) Their line of reasoning is as follows "The vase is not empty of vase it is empty of inherent existence" So they stick very closely to the debate format used in Tibetan Buddhist colleges they negate true establishment of the vase on the ultimate level, while leaving the mere appearance alone Vase not empty of vase (but empty of true establishment) This has sparked a lot of controversy also within the gelug tradition What Gendun chophel says is basically the vase is unborn ultimately when that is realized the vase also is unborn relatively and just a mere illusionlike appearance beyond any mental designation such as exists etc. (You know the dilemma called tetralemma) He says to the hard edge gelugpas: "don't you worry about that radical non duality - ordinary beings still perceive vases as truly established after you gelugpas realized the great equality of Samsara and Nirvana- that neither of the two truths is born ultimately. No need to try and protect conventional appearances of ordinary sentient beings, they cling to them anyway" Or something like that, I would say but the quote is a bit out of context so I need to guess what g.d. is talking about OM VAJRA SATTVA HUNG & excuse me if I butchered your madman's madhyamika

Dear 3bob, I'll try to answer your question (emphasis on try) First a little side note on Gendun chophel: he was trained in the gelug tradition but his views regarding madhyamika are very different then that expounded in most gelug colleges - that's why many a geshe call him a nyigmapa That said The above quote might point to the fact that the gelugpas don't like to negate the relative truth as it appears to ordinary beings (here ordinary beings means those who did not realize emptiness yet, unenlightened beings) There line of reasoning is as follows "The vase is not empty of vase it is empty of inherent existence" So they stick very closely to the debate format used in Tibetan Buddhist colleges So they negate true establishment of the vase on the ultimate level, while leaving the mere appearance alone Vase not empty of vase That has sparked a lot of controversy also within the gelug tradition What Gendun chophel says is basically the vase is unborn ultimately when that is realized the vase also is unborn relatively and just a mere illusionlike appearance beyond any mental designation such as exists etc. (You know the dilemma called tetralemma) He says to the hard edge gelugpas: "don't you worry about that radical non duality - ordinary beings still perceive vases as truly established after you gelugpas realized the great equality of Samsara and Nirvana- that neither of the two truths is born ultimately. No need to try and protect conventional appearances of ordinary sentient beings, they cling to them anyway" Or something like that, I would say but the quote is a bit out of context so I need to guess what g.d. is talking about OM VAJRA SATTVA HUNG & excuse me if I butchered your madman's madhyamika

Jaya GURU!!!!

Dear gatito, Could you translate that?

I remembered my lama telling me about a western person coming to him to talk about his experience of meditation He talked about a mind looking at a mind Rinpoche listened to all that person had to say about how there is a mind looking at mind with great intensity (Claiming to posses two minds in fact) At the end Rinpoche just said "ya, ya" - he felt this persons mind was fixed on that belief and a discussion is not going to clear any confusion I would just say exactly that about this thread I have many things to say but one might as well run against a brick wall I like my head EDIT: the double post was of course unintentional

I remembered my lama telling me about a western person coming to him to talk about his experience of meditation He talked about a mind looking at a mind Rinpoche listened to all that person had to say about how there is a mind looking at mind with great intensity (Claiming to posses two minds in fact) At the end Rinpoche just said "ya, ya" - he felt this persons mind was fixed on that belief and a discussion is not going to clear any confusion I would just say exactly that about this thread I have many things to say but one might as well run against a brick wall I like my head

Thank you ZYD, In some way, even without really knowing astrology (western or jyotish) I felt they are closely related ..................... I was thinking about astrology and it feels more and more like a form of ancient therapy to me, a way to balance the psyche and how the psyche manifests (Sorry for over simplifying, I don't even know the ABC of astrology) Then ZYD, Nungali and others also mentioned planetary magic which I feel the Hindus are working with aaaaalot - in different forms A very simple form is connected with shani dev (Saturn) On Saturday people offer black moong dhal and mustard oil to a murti of shani dev, close by is also a little pool of mustard oil and you're supposed to make a demonic face on the surface reflection You do this to send back curses, insults and other negative wishes of spirits or humans Its very common to do that on Saturday and if I don't space out I do it too There are much more elaborate magical ceremonies connected with the 9planets like during navratra (where the main forms of shakti are worshipped) those rituals take usually 5-9days Mostly about success wealth health etc in the coming year Then there are the personally crafted yantras that you wear in a special bracelet connected with your planets The different teachings on jewels and metals that you should wear Its very pervasive still in this culture Sidenote over

Aaaaand Micheal, Why you prefer the space (akash) element over the others? I didn't really understand that part

Thank you micheal The elements as understood in the tantrik traditions are principles as well (in their coarser form) Fire is ripening Water is binding Earth is solidifying Air is moving Space is accommodating (best translation for what space "does" I could come up with on the spot) In their pure form they are the consorts of the five Buddha families For example water is Mamaki - that's why a tantrika is damaging his samayas when he/she sees water as simple water and not the deity Side note over....

Yep thought so: Emerald's lush green has appeased souls and exited imaginations since ancient times. Its name comes from the Greek word for green, "Samaragdus". Mercury's Jyotish gem is the Emerald. It is one of the great five gems, known in Indian jargon as "pancharatna". Mercury is impartial, evocative, delightful, and youthful. He is famous for ready wisdom, and the power of communication. Related to our respiratory system, nervous system, and speech, Mercury makes people more skillful, clever and delicate. He is shown riding a lion with an elephant's trunk which points towards the dual nature of Mercury, readily apparent in those with Gemini ascendant. The lion symbolizes wisdom and the Elephant memory. In his hands Mercury has a bow and arrow to shoot his target, a disc for Vishnu, and a conch for liberation. And... Dosha: VATA element: air signs: Gemini, Virgo, Libra, Capricorn, Aquarius planets: Mercury, Saturn, Venus (secondary), Rahu.

Yes Nungali, I started understanding the astrologers words in that way after reading your post from before So Mercury on some level sounds like what governs intellect? Which chackra correspondence does mercury have usually? Throat? Third-eye? Element is air/water (Frater UFA mentioned that with regards to alchemy, same is true for astrology?) I would guess it to be air - colour green, hence the jewel emerald (at least in the Indian system)

Communication, or getting information from one source to another comes up a lot in the answers of who or what is this principle (which was one major facet of my personality - easy to make friends, hard to forget even if met just once, public speaking) He also mentioned: education, healing and arts With a focus on spiritual education How is the western system seeing those correspondences? Art and travel popped up in 9ths post (astrologerji also said I will travel a lot and figured out I was an artist before but move more towards spirituality now) (He also said to be more diplomatic in my love relationships mars/Venus and not just speak my mind - sounds like what nungali said as well) Pretty similar so far

Well the jyotish side of things I already know a little about from the palm reader I'm actually interested in the western system

Whoops how did that happen?

Back to the topic.... How did nungali like the Energized Meditations book from Dr.Hyatt? The exercises presented in there are all from reichian vegetotherapy (or slightly adapted and made sound more spiritual in adaptation and result) I like the book actually its fantastically weird

Maybe you read Dr. Svobodas books on the subject, if not I can recommend them as a great introduction to the subject (and that's as far as I went) I live in India most of the year and aryuvedic medicine helped me on innumerable occasions I have friends who did panchakama with excellent doctors and could treat disorders that where unfindable in Swizz hospital check ups (and that's why untreatable in the western system, my dharma brother was nonetheless in very bad shape)

On a side note: dear bindi, In the different vajrayana lineages, sadhanas etc. you will find different numbers of chakras, different ways of visualizing them etc. Why? They don't "really" solidly exist Mind is the main thing and if you visualize in a certain way the impure winds (karmic winds=dualistic thought process) will start to move a certain way and give certain results Clarity, non thought, bliss In the lineage I'm thought in tsalung is seen as the "companion" to realize and stabilize the view My guru also simply said if you are not ready and guided well you'll end up in the lemon factory (maybe you know how people on haldol etc. look? Like they constantly eat lemon...) I put the lemon factory there, Rinpoche wouldn't know what that is I write you all of that because you will find many different maps of the vajra body Method is infinite Wisdom is wisdom

I really enjoy the spawns of your madness/method OK back to the back seats

Thik hai bhaja, Looks like I won't have anymore fun with this

If one misunderstands emptiness then yes buddhadharma might appear nihilistic On the relative level no madhyamika would negate the illsuionlike arising of dependently originated phenomena (What those strange tantrikas call clear light or luminosity) - so not nihilistic really On the ultimate level no madhyamika would assert the birth of any phenomena from the form aggregate up to and including the omniscient mind of the Buddha, nor is there a "real" unborn ultimate(dharmadatu) established in the place of dualistic phenomena (what some of the extrinsic emptiness peoples talk about) And by the way these two truth are not one nor different EDIT: that's why they are a union Now how would you explain the union of Shiva/Shakti

I try to translate 3bob (stop me if wrong sir) Shakti has many levels of course,the one we know most intimately is coarse dualistic vision (Maya) Coffee is part of that