Ben D

Not only is it possible, it is the way it is. The reality of the world of ten thousand things is full of deception, the Tao continuously reminds us that the Tao that is described is not the eternal Tao. The allegorical story of the destruction of the tower of Babel is a universal metaphor that explains this. The Truth is beyond words and so one can only ever encourage others to find out 'what and 'who' they really are! The allegorical story of Jesus throwing out the money changers from the temple is explained thus. Jesus taught "know ye not that you are temples of the living God". Your bodies are the incarnate spirit of the transcendent oneness, and to abuse it in the temporary pursuit of money and respect in this world is gross ignorance.

Yes, read the article and agreed with some of it, though not all. The sticking point is the one you point out, realizing the enlightened state as an experience is one thing, getting it to stick permanently is another altogether. It is my understanding the Kundalini process when complete, results in permanent enlightenment, a Tathagata,...one who has gone, one who disappears from this world,.. for ever. I died as a mineral and became a plant; I died as a plant and rose to animal; I died as animal and I was a man. Why should I fear? When was I less by dying? Yet once more I shall die as man to soar... With angels blest. But even from an angel I must pass on: All except God must perish. When I have sacrificed my angel soul, I shall become what no mind ever conceived. JALALUDDIN RUMI

"As far as existing without an ego, yes, 'coma' patients do it quite well.' It is certainly true that all unenlightened beings function through the faculty of ego mind, but perhaps it is being somewhat anthropocentric to conclude that this continues to be the case when enlightenment has been realized. Besides, the question of ego 'death', or dissolving of the ego can be considered metaphorical language to convey the idea of the transcending of the dualistic ego mindset to realize that of transcendent oneness. The enlightened state would contain all egos, but this state could never be realized for any ego that was not prepared to come to an 'end' in order for the 'birth' of the transcended state. He who would try and save their life (ego) will lose it, but for those who are prepared to lay down their life (ego) for God (oneness) will have eternal life. Luke 9.24 The ego wants to have the cake and eat it too.

Thank you Steve.

For those who have an interest in contemporary science, how is this for a statement on the concept of an electron as standing wave exemplifying the ying - yang as the underlying basis of the Tao Oneness, For a more detailed elaboration of the wave structure of matter, visit http://www.glafreniere.com:80/matter.htm

Perhaps your 'higher self' is not yours in the personal sense but is the self same higher self of others. The apparent separation between oneself and others perceived at the ego mind level is 'maya'. Therefore the wisdom of 'doing unto others as you....etc.,' that results in the best outcome and serves the best interests of the gestalt whole. There is this chinese saying,.'Superior virtue does not know virtue, inferior virtue practices virtue", ie. real morality exists when there is no ego self interest or agenda involved. BTW, what is the 'higher self'? Atma. Buddhi, collective oversoul, God, Tau, or are these all just different names for the same unknowable source?

Stay centered upon the Tau,... ying and yang will come into balance without the need to specifically cultivate one or the other.

Cease thinking,.....dhyana practice.

"Burn",...Ouch,... sounds like this in itself is the fruit of the bad karma.

How to make good karma? A chinese saying I once read,... Superior virtue does not know virtue, Inferior virtue practices virtue.

Am in general agreement with the gist of your good post but add this,.... No one can see the Oneness for that is an oxymoron, Oneness contains all things and nothing exists outside it. The experience perhaps was the Oneness, and if so, for that moment, 'you' (ego) did not exist, for the separation between 'seer' and 'seen' no longer existed. When the ego consciousness repossesses the body, the discriminating 'I' in it's vanity claims to have experienced the Oneness. Yes, it is my understanding too that it's a process of erosion of erroneous perceptions, but to finally bring closure to this process, ie. enlightenment, these erroneous perceptions must cease completely. Sooner or later the choice between immortality and mortality is forced upon us, which is the meaning of the 'Jesus' metaphor of not being able to serve two masters continuously. So true Patrick, a Buddha doesn't know anything, even that of being a Buddha,... pure undifferentiated Oneness.

Hundun said,... "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha." Yes that is also my understanding of this metaphor. vortex said,... Enlightenment is not you awakening. It is God awakening within you. "You" is nothing but the veil That creates the illusion of separation. So when you let go of you... PEEK-A-BOO! God sees through! Well said!

It is my understanding that the ego mind disappears at 'enlightenment',.. not in the sense of the mind concept of 'disappear'' but due the realization that what one thought oneself to be in fact was an illusion. Ying and yang are relative attributes of the Tau, but the Tau remains ever unchanged even though these attributes continue their creative, harmonizing, and destructive movements forever. When an individual attains to enlightenment, 'Oneness' is all there is, and that which before which was seen as separate and desirable is now internal,...and that which before seemed to be threatening and undesirable is also now internal. All duality (symbolized by the ying ang yang of the Tau) are internal attributes of the Oneness. So long as one would identify with the sense of having separate existence (ego), the individual is subject to the maya of dualism in all it's forms, good and evil, birth and death, me and not me, etc.. However Seth Ananda, it is my understanding that human concepts such as angels, buddhas, etc., do represent something real and if there is any residual individuality left after enlightenment, then one will know then.

I as a human being devote myself to religious practice that according to tradition will bring about the realization of a state called enlightenment. However I know that 'I' will never ever become enlightened and, though I confess that I once did hold out such hope. Don't misunderstand, enlightenment does exist, just that it is not the attribute of any mortal,...ever. My present understanding is that it the 'I', the personal ego which in my case is known as Ben, is but a temporary non-enlightened mind that has developed a degree of self consciousness and seeks to experience more and learn more for as long a duration possible. That it is mortal, limited in knowledge, and will be subject to death is perhaps the main reason why I turned to religious teachings that held out a promise of the potential to attain to a state of enlightened perfection and immortality. I didn't realize at the time that one can't "have their cake and eat it too" and that the price of enlightened immortality is mortality. Over the many years of study, devotion, ritual, fellowship, meditative practice, yoga practice, trials and tribulations, etc., it is now quite clear that the self conscious mortal life ego must be transcended in order to attain to the enlightened state. That glimpses of, and experiences of the awesome Presence behind appearances has occurred over time, has convinced me that there is definitely more to it then 'I' can ever comprehend. But it is also my understanding that these glimpses and experiences really amount to vanity if one were to continue to remember them, talk about them, and/or dwell on them, and will actually serve to retard progress. Why?..because it is the error of the mind that presumes the dualistic existence of the experiencer and the experienced to be the normal state of reality when in fact it is maya. The dualistic conceptual mind needs to be transcended for the integrated oneness of enlightenment to be expressed fully. Oneness in it's infinite and eternal glory is not a 'house divided'. Enlightenment is an attribute of the Oneness, and for enlightenment to be ascribed to any other is a debasement of the most sacred Truth.

Taoism is the cultivation of the Tau. Since the Tau is beyond understanding and words, one may meditate on understanding what it is not. Tau is non-dual in it's nature and so will never be realized through any practice employing a dualist approach, ie. a discriminating mind. Therefore, the mortal mind which functions in the discriminating mode is incapable to realize the Tau. When one understands that knowledge derived from discrimination is nothing more than a mental construction (conceptualization) of the real, and one ceases this activity, the real real that was there all along is revealed. My present understanding is that when the Tau is realized, an immortal is born and a mortal dies. .

A profound zen/Taoist piece that I recommend for anyone who has not read it is the Hsin Hsin Ming from Seng-ts'an. Though the 'Hsin Hsin Ming' is from zen, it is clearly rooted in the Taoism. Here is a translation by Richard B. Clarke. Hsin Hsin Ming

My consuming interest over many years has been to find out what my goal is in life and to give all in attaining to it. As years passed and I digested all that I could find of the various religious teachings, it began to become clear that the dualistic mindset that drives conceptual thinking 'masks' that for which the concepts stand for. Eventually through meditation practice, experience or non-experience of no thought occurred and the development of the intuitive faculty unfolded. The realization of the underlying oneness of all and the nothing is now understood conceptually by 'me', to meet my goal, all that remains is to 'die' to the concept.

A bit if both. Initially my goal was to find out 'what' and 'who' I really am, and did involve my choosing it. But when that goal was attained as a conceptual understanding, what remains is the difficult part, ie. to be one with that for which the conceptual understanding stands for,.... the Tau. This requires a 'death' of my present dualistic mindset and a simultaneous 'rebirth' or 'uncovering' of the changeless Tau. 'Choosing one's goal' obviously implies a state of dualist thinking, ie. a chooser and that which is chosen, clearly a mindset far from the Tau. To be one with the Tau, conceptual thinking must cease. If conceptual thinking ceases, the personal mind comes to an end. When the personal discriminating mind comes to an end, that which was there all along is revealed. Hence the very astute reply from Shon,..dying is as easy or as hard as being born! Thanks for your welcome Darin.

Yes Sir, particularly when it is all happening simulataneouly! ...Thanks Shon

Everything is waves/vibrations right? That is my understanding. And what is understood as particles are actually 'standing' waves as per electical theory. For a simpler description try this. http://members.tripod.com/mwolff/ What is interesting to ponder is what intelligence exists that keeps everything vibrating at it's particular frequency. What's holding it all together? My understanding is that space is comprised of an infinite frequency spectrum from the infinitesimal (zero) waves to the infinite (infinity) whereby all is in continuous motion of many dimensions, as a seamless gestalt whole. I mention this as I spent my working life in the radio field and so retain some interest, but the Tau will never be realized through enquiry into the ten thousand things. If it is "God", then what type of intelligence it that? I feel that it's not the kind that has me forming words and typing sentences here, but more the kind that keeps my heart pumping, or a tree growing, or the planets orbiting the sun. Again, the answers to your questions will not come from enquiry into the infinite and eternal variations and movements of ying and yang. The Tau is the gestalt whole of all that is, all that exists, exists within the Tau, and all that doesn't exist, doesn't exist within the Tau. I would like to learn to be closer to that kind of intelligence, My understanding is that to do that, one should find out 'what' and 'who' one really is. Your question implies a duality, ie. there are things unknown and there is a separate intelligence to you. So long as one asks questions with an inbuilt error, there can't be understanding. GIGO

God = The Tao Only if you give the same meaning to them. And you can add Allah, Nirvana, One Mind, etc.. However these are mere words, concepts, mental constructs that allow for communication in this domain we call mortal, but they are not that for which they symbolize. IOW, concepts convey the idea of something but whatever the Tau or God really is, it will not be realized unless one becomes that. So long as there exists duality, a seeker of the Tau and the Tau, the goal will not ever be realized. Concepts themselves act as a barrier to effectively separate the seeker of the Tau from the Tau. For that reason, cessation of conceptual thinking is necessary to realize the Tau. Jesus = The Physical Manifestations of The Tao And so is Junbao and Ben d. Holy Spirit = Chi - the force that animates the the physical manifestations within the Tao Yes, and more than that, perhaps matter is actually made of Chi. http://www.glafreniere.com:80/matter.htm

I am not sure that I understand this clearly. It is my understanding that the cultivator of the way is attempting to become one with the way and transcend the duality of ying-yang relativity, which you have stated clearly above. However you then proceed to discuss the circumstance of a cultivator of the way attempting to communicate with beings of the god-mind, and how virtue, sincerity and concentration are necessary to get an actual response. Now it seems to me a cultivator of the way in the first case, who is attempting directly to overcome the error of a dualistic mindset, is at a different 'level' than one who attempting to communicate with a 'separate' being of the god-mind since discrimination is implied in this act.

"Does Taoism believe in a God?" According to my understanding, Taoism does not have beliefs. The Tao is complete and has no need of affirmation, nor does it make affirmations. Belief in any form implies duality, ie. one who believes, and the belief itself. Since the Tao is beyond duality, any move towards discrimination is an immediate fall from the Tao. P.S. Actually I also understand that the Abrahamic God concept was also originally meant to convey Oneness, (Omnipresence) but the popular understanding of it now is a degenerated anthropocentric/anthropomorphic duality comprising of a good creator god and the separate adversary evil destroyer god Satan. It is said the the Tao is lost when discrimination begins,...ying and yang emerge , then similarly in the Abrahamic tradition, the fall from Perfection takes place when discrimination begins, ie. to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil,.. good and evil come into being.