Earl Grey

I have already sent you a private message on the matter.

Dear practitioners, I am posting this as both another reminder and a possible opening for dialogue. First and foremost, Flying Phoenix qigong is for health, and not just physical health, but emotional, mental, and spiritual health. As I have experienced people with anxiety find peace and nagging thoughts dissipate with continued practice of both Flying Phoenix and quiet seated meditation, the results of continued practice grow with diligence and discipline. This is why we have this thread: to help each other know we are not crazy and to find overlap. Some of us may have more spiritual experiences such as me having more metaphysical encounters, but that should not dictate that it is inevitable for everyone, as some may never experience anything beyond a sensation of warmth or tingling, and may never even see the blue light that many report. To be caught up with sensations is one of the traps of many newcomers and seekers, which is what imprisons us in the realm of the senses. What I personally believe is that we practice this because 1) it is good for our health, 2) it is excellent for our evolutions as humans and our soul journeys. Let me quickly define something that I will write more about later in my own personal practice journal, on the nature of spirit work versus soul work. Spirit work involves playing with energies--anyone can do that and feel it, as we are naturally attuned to it for the most part unless our third eye is blocked and we have difficulty perceiving these sensations from any type of energy work, be it qigong, Reiki, pranayama, or western hermetic traditions. This is what takes you up and can be euphoric because you sense another dimension of existence. Soul work, on the other hand, can involve the use of energy work, but is not necessary, because it involves going deep into the Self (capital S) within, requires shadow work, confronting the parts of our ego complexes that are blinded by desire and anger to protect the lesser self. A complete atheist can do soul work through intensive therapy, art work (sketching, sculpting, painting), solitary reflections in their journals and walks in nature, and recognizing that they are imperfect, and not even use the term soul work, but still do the act itself. A sage of the Tao and any of the esoteric arts can use these terms and recognize the need to understand the concept of Oneness and the eternal Self that constantly reincarnates much like a man changes his clothes, for the Self is eternal, never having not existed and never ceasing to exist, and it is present in all of us whether we are aware or not. I am you, you are me, and recognizing the importance of each incarnation and the lessons with each individual ego perceiving reality all at once, this is the journey of the godhead, the Self to appreciate the gifts of suffering and separation as we naturally gravitate towards unity. This kind of statement has parallels that can be found in The Bhagavad-Gita, in the writings of Rudolf Steiner and Alice Bailey, Kabbalah, and even Sufi mysticism. Understand that what is great about this thread and system are as follows: 1) we have Sifu Terry and his decades of scholarly study and experience with several pedigreed lineages, 2) we have the complete system itself and more, 3) we have the community here to discuss with the diverse experiences of each student, all of these three are to expand our understanding of not just the Flying Phoenix system, but the subconscious work that can arise from practicing the system with the proper guidance of Sifu Terry and the insights shared with each other, directly and indirectly on this thread. The questions beginners may feel embarrassed about asking offer insight to experienced veterans, especially those like me who wish to become instructors of the system (and perhaps a Sifu in my own right one day), the esoteric experiences that people share may also help students who feel that they may have some issues to confront due to the unique individual encounters with qi and its manifestations. Some people may not respond directly or immediately, and it's not due to ostracism as one former student once bemoaned, but lack of familiarity and qualification to speak to the condition of the practitioner who claimed he neither felt many sensations or felt much progress due to his condition with aphantasia, and we should never take this as a sign of rejection, but that someone may need professional help and the Internet does not guarantee that its denizens have the authority to make an informed diagnosis. We are lucky that Sifu Terry is here to help with things like potential qi deviations which are usually derived from improper breath control sequence or not following the basic instructions in every DVD copy, which some people bafflingly still manage to ignore. As there are other threads with lack of disclaimer or guidance (such as the recent serious violation of ethics and tradition and possibly legality with the Spontaneous Five Animals thread where the entire form was posted), we run the risk of damage and it is the gift of both a community and Sifu Terry as both a professional and a master to offer this thread and his series to us, as well as his own private instruction in person or online. A form alone will not change you--but it can help you become aware of what you are working on, and that is why the character and level of understanding and development in a master is essential--whom you choose to make your master, even if you don't call them a master, is whom you choose to emulate. If I make Elon Musk my master, I don't have to meet the man, I only need to emulate what I enjoy about him and project onto him what I wish I were, the master I take is the idea of Elon Musk being a billionaire with a chip on his shoulder and complete disdain for ethics in a very Randian Objectivist manner. If I choose to take an idea of a Taoist sage, and I can see those characteristics in people around me, then I can recognize that neither Sifu Terry nor any of my teachers will ever force me to look deep and hard at my own character and transform into whom I need to be and who the universe deserves for our higher evolution, but it is only to my benefit to do so because it will allow me to access the higher realms of consciousness and reality that the doors of perception open with continued practice of the yogic arts of superior quality like the Flying Phoenix system. Flying Phoenix and any high level system is not a bandaid or placebo, but a tool that can be both a mirror of the soul in addition to an elixir for our own physical incarnations and wellness, so please do not use the Flying Phoenix system in lieu of seeking professional advice for your medical concerns or your mental health. I will close with this reflection: as the solstice ends and winter in the northern hemisphere is upon us, my material and financial state are not ideal, but I find the abundance even with just knowing the DVD forms and a few extras as taught by Sifu Terry himself in our private lessons for the past year to bring me great joy. From finding my dogs enjoying the qi when doing the meditations to being a healing presence everywhere I go, whether through the slums of Manila to the streets of San Francsico (where I am presently staying for the holidays), watching the plants in my own apartment and my mother's home grow with extreme fecundity after practicing in their vicinity for a few days, and the simple increase in awareness (especially self-awareness and worldly awareness), I have some of the most priceless gems in the universe. To have a body with no serious injuries that prevent me from breathing, ten fingers and ten toes without any restrictions on movement, eyes to see and ears to hear, a mind to appreciate and reflect, I am humbled by this flesh and blood incarnation to have stumbled upon this thread nearly four years ago and to begin the practice and now call myself one of Sifu Terry's students, and more importantly, abundantly joyful to call all of you fellow students my friends, brothers and sisters, and family. Happy holidays, Flying Phoenix friends and family.

As I am cleaning up shop here, I would like to ask for the option to please lock some threads in my PPJ after seeing an incursion there that really did not need to happen.

There is no entity takeover whatsoever with Flying Phoenix.

I am emerging from my solitude but briefly to address these recent conversations on the Flying Phoenix thread on behalf of Sifu Terry as best as I can as one of his personal students and because an earlier e-mail exchange we had expressed his encouragement for me doing my best to support the community here, especially due to his absence. Firstly, I would like to request that incursions similar to the recent one by rideforever cease because decorum is compromised by the lack of respect being displayed here. While he may truly believe that his actions are faultless and I do not doubt his good intentions, proprietary measures dictate that 1) This is Sifu Terry's personal thread on the Flying Phoenix system, so while you can certainly mention other systems as a point of reference or comparison, it is far different from what rideforever actually did, which is to essentially belittle the system and promote unsubtly Michael Winn's system. He may not believe that is what he is doing, but to most adults (to piggyback on the term used above by stillwater), it is highly disrespectful. It is akin to a cat lover walking into a room of people with a love for dogs and say that dogs are just slobber machines, but as animal lovers they are better off being with cats. When called out by Zork, who isn't even a Flying Phoenix practitioner, but a concerned member here, the dismissiveness and unwillingness to be receptive to feedback on decorum here only furthers the divide. At the same time, I must commend everyone for doing the proper thing (which I may attribute more to being busy), which is to not feed the troll and to instead ignore it instead of fanning the flames. 2) You are welcome to make your criticisms of Flying Phoenix in an entirely different thread (not specifically to rideforever, but to anyone else who has derailed this thread multiple times throughout the nearly nine-year history). While you post here, the purpose of this thread is to focus on the discussion of the system, its benefits, workshop announcements by Sifu Terry, questions and clarifications about forms, news about upcoming DVDs and the books, or engaging on shared experiences by those who are new and veteran to the form. If you want to give your views on why the system isn't great and to insult the teacher or voice your views on how having teachers versus personal learning through DVDs on systems that are unrelated to Flying Phoenix, open a new thread or your own personal practice journal and discuss that there, because it derails from the focus of this thread in addition to as mentioned above being highly disrespectful. Secondly, addressing old longtime friend Astral_Butterfly's departure here, I can confirm with my own experiences and work with people from Eric Isen to my friends in the Akashic Records community and other Taoist masters that the "entity" behind Flying Phoenix is benevolent. It has been rumored to be Xi Wangmu and other times Kuan Yin, but it has consistently been benevolent. Eric Isen had scanned me during the long form MSW exercise and said that the white female who appeared in the stupa (a bell-shaped structure) was a Buddhist being who was offering me a blessing, the Akashic lords who were consulted through my flesh and blood teachers and my own work in the Akashic Records have all given very positive remarks on Flying Phoenix. I can not comment on the GM Doo Wai material I have been privileged to see, but I can say that if much of that information were made public, it would be part of the sacred duty of us students, knowingly or unknowingly, to continue the practice because the energy cultivated doesn't just affect us, but the world around us. It is quite possibly the premier healing form that everything from dying kittens at the animal clinic to plants in my house have all shown drastic benefits from being exposed to the unique energy of Flying Phoenix. We can't determine if doing the practice and not feeling the results of it when ceasing practice is truly an accurate barometer for the integrity of the energy or healing, but what we can say is that even within traditional medical qigong practices, Flying Phoenix is unique in addition to how the herbal formulas used by the advanced practitioner as taught by both Sifu Terry and GM Doo Wai do not follow orthodox TCM principles. Personally, I think there is more to it than "the health I experience is not my own good health, when I stop, it dissipates and goes away. If I were truly getting better, the effects would last beyond the dissipation of the chi. There is no true personal healing in a dependency-based system" because every individual's energetic makeup is unique and what you are aware of that needs healing is still barely the tip of the iceberg. If anything, for every individual thing we notice that we believe needs healing, there are at least a dozen more things that we are unaware of and this is the importance of community and a teacher to both mirror us in ways that we are unable to perceive on our own. As for "truly getting better and the effects lasting beyond dissipation of qi", again, it's not so simple as that because working with qi doesn't follow conventional logic, even more so in Flying Phoenix. Healing crisis is one possible explanation, but I would need to actually scan your energy myself, and there are limitations on me doing so from a distance (often using my Akashic skills) and Sifu Terry can read himself through in-person scanning. Healing is a very personal and individual process, and waving your hands or doing a qigong system alone won't ever be the end-all resolution for your healing. Healing is at a soul level, and doing the advanced systems actually help you look into the soul deeper and deeper and recognize the core and root (both separate things) that need to be addressed, otherwise, you are merely playing with energy akin to popping a medical tablet or enjoying the highs of the energetic practice analogous to opiates. This is why I discovered that Flying Phoenix as a practice is perfect as a system in of itself and with just one meditation of the entire 40+ forms and quiet seated meditation after doing any of the forms, you are able to address parts of the psyche often overlooked. So it is not just recommended, but personally I believe it's mandatory to do seated meditation even for five or ten minutes a day to truly do the soul work that comes from having the right energetic alignment from FP energy, because otherwise, you will stir the swimming pool and the muck will turn the water into an opaque mess, but after stillness, it will settle and appear as clear as day. I personally believe that this is one of the many dark nights of the soul for individuals when they are struggling with their own healing, which at the higher levels is often a good sign because it is what compels us to look inward and this is what determines our soul work and level of awareness to address the work that needs to be done. I went through this many times in life, and I will say that the decision to rise or fall is not determined overnight. Quoting your own signature, an ant on the move travels farther than an ox at rest, but that doesn't mean that rest is a bad thing, nor is moving incrementally always superior. There are times we need to breathe, and in between inhales and exhales there is always a momentary pause that is neither inhaling nor exhaling. This is what stillness and meditation is for, as I have been taught. My last point here is to ask everyone to please continue supporting one another and if you feel stuck, don't be dismayed by how interaction on the thread is significantly less frequent than in previous years, as many members have their own lives offline and Sifu Terry is busy, but it's up to us as a community to support one another. While I certainly had a lot to say when checking in from time to time in my solitude and wished I could have said more to support members here, it is Astral_butterfly's message above that compels me to come in and say what I can in the absence of Sifu Terry's response, or other members who could help one another here but are simply unavailable to come in and offer some insight. In other words, it is the allegorical sacred duty mentioned by Krishna to Arjuna in The Bhagavad-Gita that says it is better to do this sacred duty of ours imperfectly than to avoid it for want of being perfect and fear of being imperfect. So while I am no master, I am a student and one who cares with enough insight to share and encourage anyone who is still here to keep on keeping on and know that even if no one is seemingly responsive or able to speak to your needs at the time you need it, you are not alone.

Taken from: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/03/14/manvotional-socrates-on-the-importance-of-physical-fitness/ Editor’s Note: In his Memorabilia, Xenophon, a student of Socrates, shares a dialogue between Socrates and one of Socrates’ disciples named Epigenes. On noticing his companion was in poor condition for a young man, the philosopher admonished him by saying, “You look as if you need exercise, Epigenes.” To which the young man replied, “Well, I’m not an athlete, Socrates.” Socrates then offered the following response. Just as much as the competitors entered for Olympia. Or do you count the life and death struggle with their enemies, upon which, it may be, the Athenians will enter, but a small thing? Why, many, thanks to their bad condition, lose their life in the perils of war or save it disgracefully: many, just for this same cause, are taken prisoners, and then either pass the rest of their days, perhaps, in slavery of the hardest kind, or, after meeting with cruel sufferings and paying, sometimes, more than they have, live on, destitute and in misery. Many, again, by their bodily weakness earn infamy, being thought cowards. Or do you despise these, the rewards of bad condition, and think that you can easily endure such things? And yet I suppose that what has to be borne by anyone who takes care to keep his body in good condition is far lighter and far pleasanter than these things. Or is it that you think bad condition healthier and generally more serviceable than good, or do you despise the effects of good condition? And yet the results of physical fitness are the direct opposite of those that follow from unfitness. The fit are healthy and strong; and many, as a consequence, save themselves decorously on the battle-field and escape all the dangers of war; many help friends and do good to their country and for this cause earn gratitude; get great glory and gain very high honors, and for this cause live henceforth a pleasanter and better life, and leave to their children better means of winning a livelihood. I tell you, because military training is not publicly recognized by the state, you must not make that an excuse for being a whit less careful in attending to it yourself. For you may rest assured that there is no kind of struggle, apart from war, and no undertaking in which you will be worse off by keeping your body in better fettle. For in everything that men do the body is useful; and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in as high a state of physical efficiency as possible. Why, even in the process of thinking, in which the use of the body seems to be reduced to a minimum, it is matter of common knowledge that grave mistakes may often be traced to bad health. And because the body is in a bad condition, loss of memory, depression, discontent, insanity often assail the mind so violently as to drive whatever knowledge it contains clean out of it. But a sound and healthy body is a strong protection to a man, and at least there is no danger then of such a calamity happening to him through physical weakness: on the contrary, it is likely that his sound condition will serve to produce effects the opposite of those that arise from bad condition. And surely a man of sense would submit to anything to obtain the effects that are the opposite of those mentioned in my list. Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit. But you cannot see that, if you are careless; for it will not come of its own accord.

I shall gracefully accept this suggestion and follow it, and thank you for it.

And you are not me, nor am I you. I did voice my concern. Perhaps it is meaningless to you, but it needed to be said and there was no repetition here, only clarification and elaboration.

I'm sure you do. Operative word there being "believe". While I don't doubt your skill, I do question your discernment and qualifications to make the decisions you have in this matter. I wonder what his thoughts are about you publishing the form in its entirety for free. We don't give it out for free and the monetary incentive is not the issue, but the matter of responsibility between student and teacher. Democratizing it might seem idealistic, but in practice, many things get lost, primarily the integrity of the practice. Don't worry, it's not a personal attack, because it's a common theme in the world due to the Internet and availability of many systems, but a typical effect is many times it gets diluted (look at people with Fragrant Qigong for example) or it gets monetized by people with no qualifications to sell it (look at people selling unauthorized duplicates of private videos such as from the Doo Wai arts) for high prices and none of those going to the people who deserve it for preserving the art. Typically, unless a teacher says that they are happy with you giving it away for free, you are essentially stealing the art and quite possibly stealing their livelihood. I hope that you truly have the blessings all the way up to give away the art, and then take the responsibility to manage those who may suffer some possible effects from lack of proper guidance. My own teacher from the 1980s and 1990s already voiced his displeasure with this, again, primarily because in his words, "it can cause all sorts of problems". Ask your teacher or ask the Liang family about the Guangzhou trip for an interesting story about a student whose ego took over the integrity of the practice and ignored the instructions and precautions, and ignored guidance for their development. I advise against giving away such techniques like this without at least actually guiding people in the beginning and throughout their development. I intended to leave this thread already, but this warranted a response from me. Furthermore, there is not supposed to be any experimental science in an established art going back over a thousand years. Perhaps your intentions are pure albeit misguided, perhaps they are orders from above, I don't know. Respectfully yours,

Your karma, not mine. “Scaremongering” is one word used to dismiss legitimate concerns and discredit anyone who raises them. Still don’t see any authorization from Liang or his brother or what makes you think posting a practice like this so openly is okay. We have already had to handle a few people over the years with qi deviation from this form specifically. Posting these instructions here and on the website is akin to saying “Here’s a bottle of absinthe, take only a sip” and some people may respect that and others may down the whole bottle. Your karma for leaving the bottle here, their karma for taking what they shouldn’t. No financial incentive from me or my teachers. Just concern.

If you're truly authorized to release this and he is making this statement truthfully, have a certificate of authorization, I see none of that in the link or from you. If you are aware of the possible qi sickness that can arise without proper instruction (which I'm guessing is what he meant by making the instructions available, meaning people can go out and teach it if they are authorized and qualified), then I would think twice about posting it. After all, if problems or questions arise, who would people go to following these questionable instructions? I've already advised caution and spoken with my teachers about this, and we've heard no such decision to release it freely and publicly without the need of an instructor in the way that is being done on the site you linked. No more from me. In the words of Luke Skywalker, "See you around, kid."

And I have learned from Liang's direct student too who trained in Beijing since the 1980s and 1990s and taught this to me in Chinese, but I have already stated my piece about the consequences (and now warn you of karmic ones too) for sharing such a technique for free. There are some deviations as posted here and I am not responsible for anyone who practices and has any qi sickness resulting from lack of proper instruction or guidance. Enjoy the ride...

Besides the fact that there are a few crucial details omitted in the instructions here and a few discrepancies from the instructions given by my own teacher that should not be forgotten for the safety of the practitioners, I would not advise this to be posted online in this thread or on the website you are linking, especially for such a powerful technique to be given away so freely.

This is taught in our lineage, but unfortunately, this is what the Masters and Teachers have instructed us and readers in our group have all confirmed that whenever we ask this question. Why not ask your Akashic friends what their teachers say about the restriction they have given to our lineage if we all are accessing the same place, or access the records yourself if you are familiar with it? It's their (the MTLs) rule, not mine. I will happily link to the contact information or website of the group if you are so interested and genuinely want to know. Your tone doesn't appear that way though, but I can't presume for you. I agree. But I didn't set this rule--it was decreed by the Akashic Lords themselves. Again, ask your friends or ask the Akashic Lords yourself, because you're using intuition and making inductive conclusions. I'm only following what was instructed, and that gave me insights I would never otherwise arrive at without their guidance, and subsequently, far more peace and acceptance. I could ask the MTLs for you too, but again, I wonder if you actually would be open to and receptive to what they have to say through me, as a reader. Ask your friends for access and insight or access it yourself if our relationship is affecting the objectivity for you to trust and me to offer this to you. I find him annoying, but only because I was exactly like him when I was a teenager, and I have a desire to help him avoid some of the pitfalls I encountered when I was searching. Unfortunately, as it turns out, I can't be responsible for his karma or preventing him from learning what he is meant to learn. So I find myself acting at times like an older sibling who loves to tease sometimes, wants to watch out for him, but slaps his own forehead in frustration. You may call it presumptuousness. Again, the best I can say is, if you read the FAQ in my personal practice journal (and again I wonder if you actually will), you may have some more insights. It is your Free Will to perceive me and us as you do, to do as you will, and to conclude as you will.

Mother-in-law.

Seeing you two challenge one another is better than watching any boxing match the past five years.

Here's a mantra, you should say while pointing with both hands to your chest each time you breathe in, and hold them there after the mantra is recited, then drop them after each repetition. "Hohwhatanassayam." Say it aloud, then after 10x, slow down half speed, then after another 10x, slow down half speed again. Most helpful in front of your parents, friends, classmates, and teachers.

This thread is my practice with calisthenics and isometrics. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/46885-i-experimented-with-the-systems-of-charles-atlas-charlie-bronson-harry-wong-and-mike-chang/

I consider the readings and healings I offer a form of help. I do not consider that in any shape or form a means to make myself important or feel better about myself and project onto them due to the nature of energetics in the healing from Wai Gong and reading through Akashic. The only times I might think of help when it was selfish was whenever I met people who were more interested in updating their Facebook profile pictures of "helping" kids in (insert Third World country name here) or bragging about it to others. That's not help. For me, help is when if I see someone who looks like she's unable to take care of herself and insists she's fine, I take the "If you need me, I'm here" approach, best exemplified in this comic strip here: http://renegadecinema.com/10235/superman-saves-suicidal-girl Sometimes they ask for help, sometimes they insist they're fine, but letting them know you're there is a big difference, even if they don't immediately react or realize what's going on within themselves.

They taught us this in the Peace Corps (I anticipate any scrutiny and criticism for my service for sharing this about myself): When you offer help to someone, the implication is that they are helpless. When you offer to fix something, the implication is that what they have is broken. When you offer to serve, you are meeting someone halfway, and working as partners and friends, and more gets done this way. But linguistics and semantics aside, the intention of Marblehead and me here is that we want to offer a helping hand. At the moment, rideforever doesn't seem to want assistance, and I will respectfully walk away because the last time I tried to help someone throwing a tantrum while standing in the middle of traffic, they threatened me, and so I left them to their own devices. I later found out that they were beaten up by people with less patience and arrested by other people with no patience, to be locked up with people who never learned what patience was, and was saved by his mother, who was losing her patience.

Yep, because all of that was long ago and I had grown out of that when I realized those thoughts didn't serve me as well as I had believed that they did, just like one day you will too when you decide to do so yourself. That's on you, fella'. You create the reality you live in and everything else reinforces that until you get tired of it and change your paradigm for another one like people change clothes.

Knock yourself out, buddy. I know what my intent was and what my state is now, and apparently, showing concern for you is met with this kind of response, which makes me wonder what your age is and how long you've been practicing, since I had these kinds of thoughts in high school. Big give away: the use of an absolute statement there ("only when...") and sweeping generalization on saying that's what we are all taught. But then given the title of this topic that reflects your opinion on compassion and helping, I think that should not have been a surprise!

That depends on your society, and even then your parents, friends, and yourself as an individual and your practice. Your posts are a matter of concern because related to your questions for practice and energy there is a relationship between this disillusionment and the level of progress you have in your cultivation systems.

Welcome. I think there are three options here if you're interested in that: 1) There's a group here affectionately named on this forum Western Mo Pai (but not what they want to be called) who study the notes left behind by Kostas and Jim. You may contact the member ilovecoffee, but understand that they are limited to the level of practice that Kostas and Jim achieved. Please be careful with discussion on the matter as it has historically been a very controversial topic in this forum. 2) A very similar style that is 90% the same as Mo Pai, Tenaga Dalaam, also from Java, exists and has no such barriers prohibiting people of Occidental heritage to learn. You may contact the member SirYuri for more information. 3) You may also try exploring other styles based on what you wish to learn and achieve. Try reading practice journals and engaging with others in different threads to explore. I would be happy to give you my own personal recommendations based on a few questions. May you enjoy your time here.

Many people who try to access the Akashic Records without guidance or training from qualified teachers often have a hard time understanding the messages because Ego-Fear and Ego-Desire complexes and Ego itself filter things and often the MTLs find that what they say falls on deaf ears. If your history of ignoring a lot of advice here is any indicator, then the same will occur in the Akashic. Sorry, there are no easy ways to access it. There is always a price to pay for good information, good healing, good service, and good teaching. In one of my Taoist lineages (the teacher in Pittsburgh), access comes intrinsically after a certain point of meditation, which is safer, but at that point, you don't need to willingly access them, as you will then exist simultaneously on multiple vibrations like the Akashic, psychic, and spiritual vibrations while being grounded in the material vibration. So I have several sources of connection to the Akashic, but guiding you into it now can only be done if your parents come to me for a request, and they have to do it because they want it for themselves, not because you pester them for it.