Wilhelm

It's a wonder practitioners aren't just pouring out of southeast Asia then!

Then it would follow that Nei Dan as you understand it is accessible to anyone with reading comprehension of Chinese and an internet connection?

So what came first - your understanding of Nei Dan or your translation of the characters?

What do you think the dictionary definition adds that hasn't come up yet?

👀 I don't suppose you have a source for this idea, eh? Unrelated: my favorite application of the Chinese language: https://hiddenremote.com/2014/12/12/top-10-firefly-chinese-insults/ Edit: ahhhh catch you next week then!

I had it in mind the correct application of the DDJ led to becoming the Zhen Ren talked about in the text (and sincere apologies to the more learned here if I spelt it wrong 😬)

Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy. I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet. Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach? 🤔

Great clip. Surprised this one didn't get any pushback from the YouTube commenters!

Nothing wrong with a little thrift

Did you read his alchemy book? I think that'd be the cheapest way I know of. From there you've got weekend workshops, the online academy, in-person training at the new school etc. in ascending order of expense.

Could be! Those sorts of nuances are beyond me, as I expect they'll be till I get a handle on a single system first.

That's all good My only point was that were probably gonna get confused when mixing models (i.e. you probably remember Damo splits moving work into Qigong and Dao Yin based on whether the body's internal structures are being mobilized, and I imagine your teacher splits them into Nei Dan/not Nei Dan based on whether the pre-heaven treasures are being worked with). I don't think it's a big deal to say these two models are in conflict - so long as there's a teacher with a development track the practitioner will be able to realize for themself whether they're stagnating. And maybe one system disagrees with the other but since we're all at the first couple stages of the process that's just theory anyways imo.

From what little I know about your system, would it be fair to say the nature of the pre-heaven treasures are one of the main points of disagreement between your teacher and Damo? I.e. while Damo requires stillness-based practices to work with the Yuan Jing your teacher prefers (correct me if I'm wrong) a moving method?

Maybe 15-20%

Yin Qi in a generic Qigong sense is the 'magnetic' counterpart to the 'electric' Yang. It helps to organise the Yang Qi in different areas i.e. the lower abdomen. I'm not qualified to give practical guidance here, though a couple of guys on the forum might pop by with more information for you. I'd just say in general that in my opinion sensitivity as an experience is overrated insofar as it's interesting to gain exposure to a subtle form of sensory experience, but without additional practices for organizing and thickening the energy you might find that the sensitivity becomes a double edged sword - I.e. you'll experience more subtle things (like people's emotions) without building the energetic strength to temper those influences (like getting sucked into people's emotions). Does that make sense?

Hey there! In Qigong that's called Yang Qi. Probably some of the other bums will have different models for understanding it, but I was taught it's analogous to electricity as the energy the moves throughout your nervous system - which is why you don't have to create a path for it to move from A to B. The utility shifts with the system you're studying, but in Qigong/Neigong it's very much the energy of life that's directed, thickened, refined and stored to increase the efficiency of your health overall.

I studied flamenco for a year, which with that teacher meant sticking to Soleares (which is apparently the classical way to learn - master loneliness then branch out). Nowadays I don't feel lonely so often so haven't played it as much lol And been studying Damo's material maybe 7-8 years now and agree with you initial assessment of him.

samesies nice to have uyou here, Bleys

Hey guys, I was hoping to kick this thread in the butt a little. At this point it's clear that there's an endless amount of disagreements about the nature of Nei Dan and the process involved in the Dan formation, but I was wondering where the most likely points of agreement were. i.e. Do most or all systems recognize the stage of transmutation from Jing to Qi (or the firing process, or the lighting of the cauldron) as the initial stage in the Nei Dan process once the foundation is formed?

100% I had it explained to me from a couple angles, and the two I'm remembering are: 1. If you can't get your life in order enough to be financially independent, what hope do you have of accomplishing a much loftier goal such as forming the Dan (so it sets a prerequisite for potential students) 2. Most people don't value something that's given away. I've heard of good teachers not charging, but I often hear about a lot of non-financial 'hurdles' the students have to pass to receive the instruction. But I take your point - Osho driving 10 gold Rolls Royce or whatever it was as good of a red flag for potential students as any of the others he was showing. Forced asceticism is contrived too, though. If you've got to suppress your urge to indulge in material goods/comforts/etc. then I don't think that can be called natural.

Speaking in general I can appreciate the stance of 'not believing' someone's attainments until they can be demonstrated, but I also think 'disbelief' just the other side of the same coin. Just my 2c

No comment on the argument in relation to the finer points of Nei Dan. A couple guys senior to me are talking to you about it so I'll go back to listening to them

Hi Metadao, I think you're making some really good points here. As a voracious consumer of the aforementioned teachers content over most of the past decade I was hoping I could clear up a couple points This seems fair! As far as I know Damo discloses the specifics of his development to his inner door students. Plebs like me know generalities such as he's not attained the Dan He does! On his public biography on the LNG website. He has teachers that requested privacy as well though and they're not listed. I think this is fair and valid. Wrote on this at the end. That's a valid opinion, for sure. The success of the school has also allowed him to expand his in-person offerings at the new Bali campus, where in depth teachings are much more possible. Maybe greed was good here? I think this is a mischaracterisation. I can't think of an instance where Damo claimed to have attained the elixir or spoke about it without disclosing that he hadn't attained it. If he had, it would seem out of character to me (a biased fan of his). I think I deleted the part about people in dire straits accessing the academy. As far as I know, he does offer that on a case by case basis, but most of us who work and earn a Western living pay the fee (which is modest imo). I think you're making good points about the nature of online training in general. I'm personally grateful to have built a small foundation with in-person instruction, but interestingly, some who began in the Academy over COVID but came to the first available workshops were able to develop some basic qualities well enough without personal instruction. About attaining the Dan, and only speaking for myself, my perspective is a bit different from yours in that I'm willing to study under a teacher who hasn't attained the Dan IF they've received instruction and been qualified to teach the methods by someone who has. Does that make sense? I mean no disrespect, I think we're on the same page about quite a bit here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff I'm just kidding with you fellas nice to see some Nei Dan discussion popping up here again

Speaking for myself here - this process kicked off in a seminar of ~30 people. The teacher had already explained what might happen and I had seen some of the other students go through it well before I did. We went through the process from a standing position (which was by design) and my initial memories were of a rush of energy that vibrated through my body and caused me to shake, twist and bend my torso maniacally in a way that might have looked like I was possessed to an outside observer (but as the teacher had explained the ins and outs of the process well before it started - such a thought never occurred to me). There were rushed of emotion - some painful, some beautiful, and I would spontaneously break into various movements and sometimes talk with really intending to, including quickly bowing my head on the ground in a prayer and not being able to move for a while. It was also extremely depleting - I would walk out of class so exhausted I could barely walk properly. It felt very powerful, and lasted for quite a while before I was encouraged to work on getting the process to settle and calm down using the methods for sinking the Qi taught in that system. Nowadays I feel a subtler version of the same thing play out internally in a way that doesn't really get me to move very much. I've talked to other students and it seems their experiences ranged according to some aspects of their background i.e. I remember a girl who was a Bagua practitioner spontaneously circle walking as if she was doing it in her sleep. I don't think it's far-fetched for you to experience things that match how you might expect Kundalini to during this process, because as far as I understand, it adapts to some elements of your muscle memory. I hope you make a full recovery, cloud.