Wilhelm

If you're quoting a classic here, it went right over my head Definitely we can say Dao in a word, but it means less to me than even something as abstract as God does (given my Western Christian upbringing), and in fact my initial encounter with the word Dao led me to equate it with the Biblical God concept (which I've since abandoned given it was done arbitrarily as I had no cultural context or theory for the word Dao). Isn't this contradictory to what was said earlier though - about the student needing to know the theory to see what they're getting into? What is that if not mundane learning?

That makes sense. In my case I was given theory relevant to the specific practices I was undertaking and underwent a larger scope of theory for the discipline as a whole (until very recently that meant Qigong and Nei Gong - though I know not everyone agrees on what either means). I had figured this was because of time constraints (I was there for a weekend initially, so in depth study had to wait for longer sessions). I guess my question is don't you think that would be like doing all four years of University chemistry courses without a single lab experiment? I.e. if you learn theory from start to finish but have no experiential reference points it's still very useful but completely abstract. Very interesting! No follow up questions because I have no idea what that means haha Edit: though it's ringing a bell in relation to the top of the Nei Jing Tu, in terms of the language used anyways

Sorry friend! Far less grumpy today - so I'll take your word for it! Edit: sounds like I was using the term incorrectly anyways as a synonym for Vedic culture.

That's a fair point. Speaking for myself I the original product I bought (a seminar with my teacher) was done with very little knowledge of the product and it's intended results (I didn't know so much as what Nei meant at the time lol). I guess there's an implied validity in Nathan from his teacher (and in my case one of his students I used to train with), but going in it's a lot more hope and optimism than concrete knowledge of curriculum and markers that appear as it progresses... I never understood more than the barest metaphors in the classics until recently (6-7 years in). It was really hard with no Chinese background or reference pointd In Nathan's case the curriculum is made available ahead of time all the way to Dan (as Wang Lipings curriculum is publicly available), so anyone getting into the system has markers from the outset (though it sounds like you might disagree on what those markers are). I'm curious - do you think the student should be taught the theory of the process in whole before beginning practice? That seems to be the only alternative I can think of to entering it under pretext of faith. And on that note: What phenomena are expected to be achieved here, if you don't mind me asking?

He's got a chapter on it in his book FWIW. I'm not at that stage in training and can't comment on the content or anything, but given your background would it help to know he's talking about the 小還丹 and the 小藥? (I'm no scholar and only use the English translations)

I definitely appreciate your commitment to authenticity. The way I figure it Taiji is an open market product now, like Yoga. There's (Hatha) Yoga you can do in a strip mall, there's Yoga you can do in the Himalayas, and if you're really lucky there's Yoga you can do in a strip mall from somebody who trained in the Himalayas. I do get a little peeved when Taiji is written off by non-practitioners looking at the more basic gentle movement stuff, but then again I also get peeved when the internal work is written off by guys who take Taiji real seriously but think Qi is made up So long story short maybe I agree with you, but it's complicated.

Yeah for sure - thanks for clarifying! Think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and felt like being argumentative haha

Hinduism aside, the other traditions aren't that much older than Christianity, are they? I guess you could trace the ideas in the culture that led to Daoism back to the Yellow Emperor, the Yijing and so on but I don't think I'm understanding your reasoning here. As far as I know the line of Daoism I'm studying was formalized about a millenium ago but most of the methods were developed more recently (though they've been built upon the foundations of earlier methods, and I'm not sure how much the internal process has changed if at all from these developments). Comparing this with something like the early Christian fathers who began formalizing their monastic process a few hundred years A.D. which has (as far as I know) continued to this day I'm not sure I see the gerontocratic argument (again - leaving out Hinduism which afaik predates most anything we know about human history )

Do you think 'maniac' is a bit strong maybe? I watched from about 1:23:00, and though he does things differently from how I was taught (for example he talked about breaking Qigong down into breath, movement and intention) I prefer these sorts of approaches to those that lean heavily on the imagination. In this case the students might not develop a massive amount of Qi but I didn't hear him say anything that would be particularly detrimental to his students. Ive seen this fellow pop up on Reddit a fair bit. He's clearly very popular and on a superficial level seems to be good natured and concerned about his students' health. Is it 'authentic Qigong'? Ive seen his Yi Jin Jing video and it didn't seem to include the principles I was taught were fundamental to that process, but if he's associated with the Shaolin Temple then maybe that alone makes him more 'authentic' than I will ever be.

I might just not be a serious enough Taiji practitioner to have a valid opinion here, but I've never been bothered by the 'fake Tai Chi' she's reviewing here. There's a Taoist Tai Chi centre in most of the towns in my area. A small group of seniors there gather and practice gentle movements which probably help their balance a bit and they get a nice social group as a bonus. Yes these sorts of things don't further the reputation of Taiji in the international stage, but at this point I feel like the Taiji world is too fragmented to ever agree on what side of the practice should be made most public. Teaching certifications to me are just a modern appeal to authority that are popping up in a variety of fields lacking a broadly agreed upon standard, and I know it's not great to have a bunch of beginners running around as teachers but if they can avoid the most common issues found in practitioners (i.e. knee damage from Beijing style) then what's the big deal?

Ah shit. Better pack it in, fellas! The internet said alchemy is bad for you.

He probably gets asked about it a lot, but I haven't seen it in any public interviews. The fella this thread is about put up another video explaining a similar (if less spectacular) skill: https://youtu.be/snXtbm1VJE0

I think it's hard not to mention Mantak Chia in these convos because he's the source material for the methods (and although some of the links in the OP cropped out his name, that's his book they're holding). Sex & Personal Growth are the two biggest buzz words I can think of in Western consumer culture - so putting them together on its own is a surefire way to generate hype. I'm not saying these guys don't know about the practices mentioned, I'm just saying that they're not disclosing some of the problems these things can cause. I think it's great to want a healthy sex life, and it's certainly the goal I had in mind when trying out the multi-orgasmic methods talked about above. This is definitely part of a larger conversation that I'm sorry to say I'm not qualified to talk about past my own experience When checking out these sorts of things, keep in mind the proposition "if it's too good to be true, it probably is"

Hey man, good to have you here. Pardon me for being a bummer, but based on personal experience with the root of some of the above-mentioned methods (Mantak Chia's teachings - specifically the Multi-Orgasmic Man) I'm of the opinion that they're all fundamentally flawed from the assumption that transmutation of Jing (the root of sexual energy) during arousal will lead to its sublimation. I'm not sure if the Vajrayana teachers listed above use different methods, but those referencing the Multi-Orgasmic Man will lead to side effects that I didn't see outlined on their websites - including possible ED, difficulty with urination, and sexual deviancy (i.e. fantasies increasing in frequency and intensity). The root of their methods is drawn from a mistaken interpretation of Chinese alchemical texts that do talk about conversion of Jing to Qi to Shen, which is indeed the process of sublimating energies beginning with the one that is the root energy of the semen (but isn't the same thing as semen). Definitely there's lots of people running with this idea (like I did) because its super tempting - I like sex and I want to be more spiritual, so why not combine both? Although they have worked out a method to successfully prevent ejaculation, I'd argue that they're doing themselves harm as opposed to achieving any spiritual aims. Now if you're anything like me you'll probably go ahead with this anyways but I hope you'll gather as much information as possible before going forward. I get that its a super tempting idea, but if enlightenment was really possible through sex - wouldn't our horny-ass species have figured that out by now?

Sorry for being partially off topic, but does anybody understand Wang Lipings role in Longmen Pai relative to the other lineage holders? Is there some sort of heirarchy in their roles in relation to White Cloud Temple or is Longmen more or less completely decentralized? Also wondering how he traces the lineage differently from others i.e. him being 18th generation but Fabrizio Pregadio points to a line in the mid 20s of generations as central.

No argument here! My objection was to the idea that such feats were attainable by "anyone with a basic understanding of physics". Though bringing up this adjunct topic it makes me think of the guy they interviewed on the martial man who was capable of breaking melons with his index finger. (Namely - that's impressive! But also - why? )

I also agree with the spirit of exposing tricksters, but I disagree about the content of what was posted above. I'm a fan of the fellow in that video as a pretty rare example of someone who competes in MMA-style competition (on an amateur level I think) whose body's been through the YJJ process. I can only think of one or two more who've entered similar competitions and they're all under the same teacher (though there's probably plenty more I'm unaware of).

Yeah I took it as a separate function altogether - not sure if they've got the hun tethered and running around or what's going on, to be honest.

This happens all the time man, it's no big deal (threads getting derailed to continue the 'overall' conversation happening on Daobums) - you've just gotta quote the post you want to know more from and ask follow-up questions. I'd look for something in freeform's post myself as one of the only substantive ones on the topic, but this topic isn't my cup of tea haha Hey freeform do you have any idea of the mechanics of how this is achieved in occult schools, who often practice this much earlier into their development? I'm thinking of one in particular that sets you up supine, has you relax a bit and then "Imagine yourself...". There's clearly more than one way to skin this cat (assuming the second is valid)! So what's the difference if you don't mind me asking?

Edit: There's lots of videos explaining why what guys like Adam do isn't explainable by the use of external force - which is correct - but they're discounting the possibility that another mechanism is in play. The Fajin Project releases one of these exposees every few months - one day they might go so far as to show up to a seminar or try the method themselves (as Fajin is reported to be attainable in as little as 3 years). I'm not a martial artist so don't take my word for it but when I tried their seminar a few years ago all the seniors ragdolled me in a way that I couldn't prevent from bracing, pushing, or leaning as presumed in the above video. They explained the Fajin mechanic quite clearly as well, and given the bit of Nei Gong I had done a few years ahead of the seminar I was able to experience 'doing' it in a small way. So please excuse me for saying so but such videos are irrelevant as they're making incorrect assumptions (but no need to take my word for it - Adam and all his seniors have public classes)

You got anything on this topic? I might've posted this already but they only time I'd heard astral travel in a Daoist context was through Jerry Alan Johnson's books, unless dream practices count as the same thing.

I can certainly appreciate this idea in the context of the predicament we're presented with when looking for a teacher of meditative/energetic/spiritual arts. If you come from a consumer-based mindset you might try googling something like "Best Qigong Teacher" which (just checked) gets you some of the highly marketed schools like Lee Holden's, White Tiger Qigong, Mantak Chia etc. At the beginning you don't know how to select for quality so you select for popularity - because all those students can't be wrong (bandwagon fallacy). By the way Google wanted to autocorrect to 'Best Qigong Teacher Training' FML If you're an intellectual you might look up the most highly decorated professors of Daoism like Louis Komjathy, Livia Kohn etc. Since they know more about the field (if not the practice) than anyone else they'd be an excellent starting point because at least their scholarship is solid (appeal to authority). A combination of the two above would be someone who wants to attend the 'Harvard' of Daoism, and so would probably check out the Shaolin Temple, Chen Village, Wudang Mountain, White Cloud temple etc. basically the places popularly considered as the most prestigious institutions, which would probably be happy to receive you if you can pay your way. If you're a magical thinker like I was when I started (and still am to a lesser degree) then you'll be looking for someone who talks like they do in Dr. Strange about powers and energy and how 'it's all real', and you'll probably either waste a fair amount of time on bunk or (if you're unlucky) find something with a bit of potency and end up injuring yourself in some way. The implication I'm making is that these are all problematic. The way I figure you take one of the above routes, hit a dead end, and then you find out how badly you really want this. Maybe somebody's first teacher is their last one but I haven't met anyone who has had that experience Edit: I guess there's also the possibility someone might try to reverse engineer the process for themselves from what they find on YouTube, reading the classics, or searching forums like Daobums. I know early on I had this sort of thing in mind, cause it'd be way easier than going to find a teacher, but considering I'm currently on my third try at Duolingo Spanish its safe to say I've nowhere near the genius required to self-direct something MUCH more difficult like the internal arts processes (and as far as I know the last guy to do this created Buddhism, and even he had teachers take him to a high degree of development first).

Damn that's cynical! Fair enough though, thanks for clarifying.

I don't get it. Deluding himself because there's no profit to be had from the recommendation? Or because you don't think any commercial teacher is worth recommending?

Idk man you might just be a bit more hardcore than most folks 😂 I'm going to go out on a limb (and as a rehab professional) and disagree with you here haha