Wilhelm

Jerry Alan Johnson wrote a lot about it, but I never met anyone in his system who was practicing it.

At this point just to be a contrarian (having no counterargument to any of the points raised so far) I'm going to say that I believe Bruce provides an above average education in the foundations of Qigong (though I think it's fair to say that the bar isn't particularly high). Having started on the foundations of Nei Dan through another system I do wonder how he manages it without (as far as I know) being able to sit cross legged (I could be mistaken here I've just always seen him instruct in chairs and recommend chairs).

Edit: freeform and shadow_self already said this more succinctly

I never studied his Taiji but if I remember correctly his Wuji posture for Qigong contains the classic 'bend the knees' instruction, which I later learned was the source of budding tension in the area (but I was 21 at the time so nbd easy to reverse, probably less so for longer term students or older folks though). Edit: but now that I'm thinking about I seem to remember a lot of postural cautions as well i.e. don't let your knees go past your toes in movement - so there were definitely checks for this sort of thing, and maybe my own issue was one of the outcomes of online instruction but it still took refining the instruction to 'Release the pelvis TO bend the knees' (from another teacher) before I could sink the mass below the knees.

Bruce was my introduction to Qigong, and gave very detailed online instruction for physical movements which was great at the time. Considering the options available at the time I'm really glad he was the guy I checked out first. Then I read his book on sex and disappointed my next 3-4 partners (only partially the fault of Taoist Sexual Meditation™, but it was a hot minute till my psychology came back from some of those ideas 😂)

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I appreciate the intent - but if you really think it's possible someone is having a psychotic break, is talking about it openly in front of them really the move to make? Some serious breaking of the 4th wall going on here... Now, when's this boss battle going to happen?

Now we're talking! Why do I hear final boss music? 🤔

WOW. Didn't you ever watch Spider Man growing up? Let's say you can make it rain - Good for you. But if you're not going to use it to alleviate human suffering then all you've got is an XL sprinkler system that doesn't raise your hydro bill. Who cares?

For those without a nerdy bone in their body, I'll start with a quick explanation using the analogy of a role playing game. There are a range of stats that the player can develop in their character (things like strength, intelligence, charisma etc.). 'Leveling up' these stats develops those qualities in your character, and depending on the game usually leads to specific capacities related to what those stats represent (i.e. when your character grows in strength they're able to carry more stuff). Depending on the character class chosen (i.e. whether you play as a fighter or priest or whatever) there are an ideal set of 'Stats' to 'level up' to maximize your character's potential. I quite like this analogy when applied to the disciplines of self development and spiritual development - because its already out quite clearly (in Daoism anyways, and from a cursory glance Buddhist 'lists' as well) that there are specific stats, or qualities, necessary for cultivation. Unlike the RPG analogy, it seems that certain stats become more useful at certain stages of your development (we could say that you only need to 'level up' strength to a certain point, after which it becomes counterproductive). Applying this to a 'formula' for cultivation then becomes a big task - first of all, there is a laundry list of qualities/stats required for certain levels of meditation (i.e. Jhana, Samadhi), and second of all - how does one 'level up' in real life? I have some thoughts around the current formula of 'Stats'/qualities that apply to my own cultivation, as well as the means used to develop them (internal and external), but I was hoping to open it up to you guys to hear your thoughts on the matter. To give an example, I could tell you that I'm currently focused on developing (amongst other things, and in no particular order): Mental qualities like focus, concentration, mental stabilisation Emotional qualities like gratitude More general qualities like humor and humility As these all directly come from my line of study, maintaining this 'formula' allows me to maximize my 'Character's' potential within this specific system. If I were to deviate and focus on qualies like book knowledge and physical strength, there would be less harmony between me and this tradition. The means I'm using to 'level up' include: Specific exercises I've been taught that develop some of those qualities individually Studying classical texts and their relation to these qualities Adjustment of behavior in daily life to attempt to use these qualities (i.e. playing Chess or doing other attention-demanding tasks to improve concentration) Do you have an ideal 'formula' of stats/qualities that apply to your current cultivation? What about the 'key stats' that relate to your specific line/tradition (that you're able to share, anyways)? And what are your means to 'level them up'? Phew, that's a lot of nerding for first thing in the morning!

It's pretty cool how two styles from (most likely) the same source could branch out so differently makes me want to read Master Liao's book again. That's cool. It's possible that our system functions this way at a later level, but while I'm still working on Peng - any kind of hollowness is counterproductive. The instruction I was given initially to hold birds beaks with quite a bit of stretch over the back of the hand. If I go through the Ba Men with a relaxed hand, my power seems to go about halfway up my forearm. With a slight stretch it gets to my wrist, and a medium stretch reached my fingertips. Probably means I need to train more That makes sense - several of the teachers mentioned in this thread prescribe weights only after the internal body is built. Sure. The way I understand what I've been taught about Huang's method so far - voltage gets built primarily from solo work, but the partner work is needed to build correct applications, as well as conditioning the body to receive force without resorting to contraction. Cool! That makes sense.

Thanks. This was what I was guessing, but haven't seen it play out practically yet. This one I can answer. In this system Jin is transferred through conductivity of the soft tissues, which can only happen when the contractile muscles are released. Even with a light grip, closing Laogong would cut off the conductivity as far up your arm as it takes you to maintain a grip on the object. That said, I've heard of students training with weighted vests for the same purpose, as a way to spread the force more evenly. In both cases though a base level of connective tissue strength is needed to handle the additional load, otherwise you just resist the weight with your muscles and create the wrong kind of tension. He mentioned it in a video a couple months back. It was a European sounding name that I didn't recognize and can't recall, and I assumed it was one of Huang's students from his native Australia. To your point Dwai, I think Rasmus uses kettlebells at a later stage of training, but only with an open palmed grip using the hook of the thumb to hold it, and only after the students structure is strong enough to bear the load without sacrificing conductivity

For sure. I only overheard two students talking about it, but as soon as I get a chance I'll get back to you on it.

LOL! I just learned recently that this is a legit tool for developing Jins, albeit far from a central one. They're also super expensive on Amazon. I imagine Dwai was referring to his schools version of this exercise, applied to Taiji as opposed to Qigong:

Very interesting! Is there another style you trained in that you're contrasting against the Temple approach in that post, or are you speaking generally/hypothetically towards Yang style/The Taiji world at large? I seem to catch some of your meaning, but I'm not sure what styles you're referring to here:

Cool Both of my teachers make use of the Taiji ball, but more as an ancillary exercise - though one includes it early. It'd be interesting to see how Ting/Song developed around it. Same line as Wee Kee Jin, btw, though I've got no idea what his method is. Apparently his book is very good as well.

Thanks for posting Dwai. Does Temple Style Taiji place a large emphasis on Ting and Song as well?

I am also of the impression that the subtle bodies are built differently across different traditions. As far as I know, it would take a graduate-level experiential understanding of all the traditions in question to be able to accurately discern the differences. This is an ambitious project. Best of luck!

Thanks for the link. I am confused as well, so someone else will likely provide a better answer. Initially he seems to go for a partial Taiji mudra and gives a simplified instruction on reverse breathing. Later he says this is for consolidating Qi in the LDT (which is the result I was taught to expect from verse breathing as well), and although I want to add a disclaimer that I'm not skilled enough to criticise any teacher, I believe additional considerations are needed for efficiency and safety in this technique (correct sinking as opposed to placement of the mind, correct standing posture, correct use of Yi, complete reverse breathing mechanics etc.). Next he uses a full Taiji mudra, which is more familiar to me, but then he initiates the movement of his hands - which I don't understand the purpose for at all. Trying it out on myself briefly, it certainly excites the Qi in the LDT, though I'm not sure to what end. The part I understand the least is when he notes the purpose of this exercise - Fa Jin (though when he says it he demonstrates Fa Li). I don't see the connection, but possibly someone else will.

Well... I imagine we could go back and forth for a while longer, but I'm tired of talking about this Antares. I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Edit: My bad - let myself get sucked in again

Edit: Never mind. That's enough of that

I've heard that perception on Daobums before, but apparently all the Nei Gong/Nei Dan stuff comes from one Dragon Gate line (the martial arts don't come from the same type of lineages). Yeah I know that Long Men a big school and this doesn't help narrow it down. It doesn't add to Damo's marketing that his teacher prefers to keep his name private, but I certainly understand his decision.

Yes, he teaches material from an alchemical branch of Long Men, and has always advertised as doing so. I can't comment on the difference between Southern and Northern Daoism, but maybe it's no so simple as one side starts with energy work and another with meditation. There's lines within lines within traditions all under the term 'Northern Daoism' so although I'm not a scholar on the topic I'd be really surprised if there was such a plain and simple division.

When I asked you where you were drawing the quote 'laying the foundations' from, I wanted to know if you had been referencing Damo or some other source. Because different systems tend to build the foundations differently, context is important. I'm not sure where we talked about "intermediate" stages, but since we've gone in circles on this topic for some time now, I'm sure you're right that it came up at some point. Edit: I appreciate you're working out some of your ideas about Nei Dan, Damo Mitchell, and Northern Daoism here. Some of them keep coming up again and again, and I can see that you're trying to refine them. Would you be interested in posting a personal practice blog with all your ideas? That way we could talk about them directly without repeatedly derailing threads. Also, if you find my fact checking annoying you could delete my posts if they were in your own practice log