Wilhelm

Hmmm... It could be, if I have your meaning right! In case an analogy might be more helpful, maybe it could be said that the principles create the blank 'canvas' that can then be 'patterned' with Qi through movement to create 'pictures' (effects), depending on which form you are practicing. Each form will paint a different picture, but without the blank canvas the Qi has nothing to 'stick to' and so there's no lasting picture. Edit: so then to answer your question (which I seemed to have forgotten to do 😅) - as far as I know - the Qi is taken care of by maintaining the correct principles while you assume the static posture or go through the movement exercise. If you try to move the Qi directly, it may or may not do so for the duration of the exercise, but this will stop as soon as you stop the exercise. So it's more efficient to just set up the conditions for it to take care of itself, because those results will last beyond your practice session. There's a couple problems with this analogy though, one of which being that through continued practice your canvas changes and then the same forms end up creating entirely different pictures. So doing the forms correctly doesn't mean copying the external movements - it means adopting the correct principles and then following the instructions within the bounds of your current 'canvas'. I might tried too hard to be poetic, here! Does that make sense?

Just wanted to double up on this point. I also thought feeling the Qi would be important right away, but it doesn't seem to be. Based on my own understanding so far, Qi seems to do its thing according to how you've set your mind and body when performing the exercises. A much more useful focus turned out to be (in my case) how to find the ideal mind state (initially one that doesn't interfere with the Qi) and the correct body principles (ones that enhance the conductivity of Qi). Initially when you assume the correct body principles, you'll be so danged focus on keeping those correct that you'll stop worrying about Qi altogether! (Or at least that's what happened to me) And I think that's fine. I wanted to run before I could crawl, when starting these arts. All the shortcuts were just delays Getting the body right and the mind right took a long time, but it probably would've been most efficient to JUST worry about that initially. Then when your Dan Tien wakes up (which you could easily do within a year, and probably earlier), all bets are off! You'll stop worrying about whether Qi is real and start worrying about whether you're going to smack your head into the coffee table from all the ways the Qi is pulling you 😅 (which is just a stage called Zi Fa Gong which helps you clear out a whole bunch of energetic debris then settles) Edit: also, not to create a diversion - but I've heard Buddhism has plenty of energetic practices that just didn't filter into the West

Oops 😅 yeah my phrasing was pretty unclear there. Again, in my opinion, lust in animals is biological. I think the difference is that humans have created a plethora of mental stimuli to artificially 'jumpstart' what was previously just a naturally occuring process. So although your biology wasn't primed to react to the show your dad put on (I used to hate when my parents did that as well 🤮), there were certain mental seeds that were planted and reinforced each time you consumed these sorts of media. Enter hormones a few years later, and kaboom! What was once a naturally occuring physical act had a wealth of emotional and mental processes attached to it, which in my opinion is what separates us from animals here (and not in a good way).

IMO it's cause animals don't have porn (& porn adjacent media/social pressures) I might go into 'heat', do something about it and then be calm for a few hours before putting the wrong show on Netflix and artificially restarting the process Edit: original phrasing was pretty jncleaf

Neat trick!

FYI to all here, the OP cross-posted this message into several Daoist forums. I imagine he has his answer now, one way or the other. I'll be you one invisible pyrokinetic Yogi that its the other way around Because it seems you came to this forum with good intentions - wanting to learn about Nei Gong, John Chang, etc. (Same reason I joined, a few years back!) From what I can tell you have a background in some school of Western Magick, though I can't tell which (maybe it was self-guided practice?). It seems you're at least familiar with some Daoist concepts, and that you're not a fan of Mantak Chia (cool, neither am I!), but you've got some pretty odd theories about how this stuff works: So I said I was sorry to hear that because: Wrong ideas + a lot of self-assuredness + no teacher to help you = wasted time (speaking from experience). I imagine you'll get over one of these things eventually but you've set some pretty lofty goals so its my hope that it happens sooner rather than later! Still can't tell if you're trolling, sir. But I enjoy your posts, either way

I am genuinely sorry to hear that. Best wishes with your cultivation.

Yup! I checked the text to confirm this. It looks like it covers consolidation of the Yin field of the lower abdomen in detail (though there is one or two basic exercises for shaping it later in the book) Are you an LMP student? (Western school, started by a guy who was member of this forum, combines Magick and Daoism, name sounds similar to the Daoist LMP school) If not, you'd probably like them. They've got an egregore attached to the material, the boss practices pyrokinesis... Seems to tick a lot of your boxes!

This assumes a personal belief can supersede the function of karma. If this were true, we'd all be better off modeling ourselves after sociopaths rather than saints. Second this. You can get a couple years foundational work out of this course and his core textbook if you'd like a low-cost alternative (though it might feel a bit disjointed learning this way, there's plenty of material there). The first exercise in the MCO course can also help with a lot of the stressful outcomes school can bring.

Lots of the standalone courses have overlap with the weekly material. Dan Tien Gong is already central to the program, alchemy and sound work lectures start to show up early in year 2 etc. I've not yet taken any of the the standalone courses so I can't say for sure, but I imagine they give him an opportunity to go deep into the central components of the Nei Gong process. I'm planning on taking one next month to address a weak point in my development. As far as I can remember, one key difference between his live teaching and online teaching of the Nei Gong process relates to bring a bit more conservative with Dan Tien activation and setting off Zi Fa Gong. Other than that, the platform actually allows for an incredibly amount of detail to be put through, where when you're training with him for a few days there's only so much he can talk about.

Yeah the only method I've heard is through Bodidharma's Xi Sui Jing (Marrow Washing process) and that's too far above my level for me to comment on 😅 Fair enough Teacher says do both, do I do both!

I've got a TCM text that says something similar about Jing-nourishing foods - but I think it's talking about Kidney-nourishment having a knock-off effect on the Jing. Edit: spleen/stomach for postnatal, not Kidneys My understanding was that Jing replenishment is a pretty controversial thing, and that it doesn't really happen until the marrow washing process (consolidation of Jing being a different thing altogether).

So I've been thinking about this example a lot lately. It seems this particular method became very popular with a group of American Buddhist teachers, then blew up on the internet when one man put out a free ebook outlining a whole lot about the path. This specific book had a section on moving the goalposts, why he moved the goalposts, and became super popular with me and everyone else on the internet who wanted DIY enlightenment (i.e. this good looking guy). The problem is that it's quite evident that SOMETHING significant has happened to the people who worked through this method. It might not be the traditional arahantship (or anything close to it), but from a cursory glance many of them have come to the same 'place' with the method. Has anybody read enough of Mahasi Sayadaw's material to get his take on it? I figure the OG wouldn't conflate a mid-level realization with arahantship. To be honest I'm not sure how or if I plan to reconcile this, I've just been curious about it since I first read the book. Edit: on a quick glance, he says here that the defilements are eliminated at Arahantship. Of course, the book I'm referring to (which I'm trying to keep anonymous as those who are familiar with the method will know who I'm talking about, and I don't want to throw the author under the bus) says this is nonsense, but it does give a sense of the difference betweent the two supposed attainments

Gonna try to paraphrase, but I'm not familiar with the language so apologies if I get something wrong: The Sun is the Atman shining on the moon, and the moonlight is the mind which illuminates the earth. Illumination of objects through the mind is vritti-(something). This faculty can be turned towards the Atman, like how in an eclipse the sunlight is reflected off the moon towards the sun. The problem is that there is nothing to objecticise with Atman, so another faculty is needed - vritti-(something else). So the mind is needed to make the attempt to objecticise Atman, but because it's incapable of doing so it's ultimately not this aspect of the mind that realizes Atman. I think I missed something, but either way - really enjoyed the analogy.

Thank you so much for this information. Are there any clues in the word Wu? If my memory is correct - Wu is 5 and relates to processes and phases. Does this have anything to do with the Wu Xing, for example? I seem to remember hearing that the Shengren fully embodies the De (and after rereading your post - it was probably you that I heard it from 😅)

I appreciate your desire to make the most out of the limited time you have available. I'm more or less a neophyte and will defer to the more experienced practitioners who are already posting - but here's my perspective: The ideal is that you find a wonderful teacher with an effective method for you and immediately integrate it into your life. Some people seem to manage this without too much trouble and if they don't jump around, I've seen folks progress really quickly. Others like me tend to zigzag 😅 What I did was I saw wonderful qualities to several teachers and since I couldn't choose between them I split my time. I can see you are already trying to avoid this, and that's great, but what I want to point out is that these different teachers had different 'qualities' to offer their students (this isn't to say you should study several systems concurrently - definitely not!). The thing about doing a system with a consolidated/simplified set of exercises is that - barring regular modifications from the teacher or some other factor I haven't considered - you will eventually gain the 'fruit' of the exercise, after which it will become less time-efficient for you to practice (as there are other qualities needed to build as you progress). I'm only pointing this out to state that it's possible to use a short period of time very efficiently while having a range of exercises. The trick is to know when to practice what exercise, and a good system will make that part of the curriculum. I spent 5 years on a system that had basically two techniques - one was a qigong set, and the other was resting the mind on the lower abdomen. While I benefitted from each of those exercises individually, they eventually seemed to 'plateau' in their benefit for me. That isn't to say I mastered them - not at all - just that in hindsight my time might have been better spent layering separate qualities to deepen the simple practice of quiet sitting. (Edit: I'm under-selling the system because there was an transmission-based aspect meant to address this, but I think my point still stands) I can appreciate the desire for simplicity, as some folks tend to dabble so widely that they get nothing done. My only intention is to point out the possible shortcomings of oversimplification. Either way, I wish you the best in your path towards enlightenment 🙏

Thanks for going through all that. Very cool! That's slowly becoming the only thing I want to do anymore 😅

FWIW, there was great discussion on energy development as it relates to enlightenment (& beyond) by Walker and Freeform in this thread (though keep in mind the various uses of the word enlightenment that already exist within this thread - not all enlightenment discussions are talking about the same thing): https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/50035-xing-and-ming-cultivation/?do=findComment&comment=916507 And here: Edit: You might have to speak a little Daoism to understand it though 😬

Hey Dwai, Earlier you had mentioned that you previously had a Tantra teacher. Did you at one time (or now) develop your energy system alongside your meditation and inquiry practice? And if so - to what end? Thanks for any clarification you can give. This is a confusing point for me!

Loving the Taiji! From what I understand - Neigong in IMAs relates to the skills you develop from the practice, where Neigong in relation to energy work relates to a totally separate process. Kind of like how Qi means too many damned things, and we need context to define it. So it makes sense that you were confused before!

Highly recommend Damo Mitchell's Internal Arts Academy, which has several offerings: Develops students through the Nei Gong process from absolute beginner all the way to the beginning of Nei Dan (so far). The books mentioned by Sketch provide some theoretical foundation for this course Teaches Yang style Taiji including all the internal mechanics required to develop Nei Jin (which is also offered as a separate course) Bagua taught with emphasis on Nei Gong aspects 5+ supplementary courses covering topics like foundational qigong, a Bagua-inspired Dao Yin set, a method to experience your entire energy system, and a few others I'm forgetting A pretty large (50-100+ hour) library of lectures from past workshops or just a range of specific topics he recorded for this purpose Damos teaching style is consistent with his free offerings - comprehensive, nuanced, and with an undertone of humor throughout Hes also very responsive on the group Facebook forum, and has a core group of senior students who also are very helpful I also want to reccomend Adam Mizner's two offerings from his Heaven Man Earth school: Discover Taiji and Discover Mind. Discover Taiji is a five year program that takes a total beginner all the way through the Yang 37 and Yang 108 forms progressively, eventually adding partner drills and (I'm told) a sword form at the end Discover Mind is Adams meditation offering - beginning again with the absolute basics of sitting still it's ten modules are designed to develop the student to the point of being able to 'Absorb into the essence of mind' which I believe (but haven't got there yet) includes detailed instructions on attaining Samadhi Adams teaching style is VERY direct. He says everything he needs to say and nothing more, and believes those who improve the quickest are the same ones who followed the instructions the closest. Judging from some of the attainments of his closest students, it seems his instructions are very effective Hes also very active on the group Facebook forum Both systems require hard work, dedication, and the ability to listen and follow instructions closely, and the payoff from either will come quite quickly for someone with these qualities. Edit: if that's too long I can cut it down, no problem

Different stokes for different folks! Treating my training like I'm playing an RPG is one of the only leftovers from when I used to play video games that's proved to be very helpful in my self-development

This is great stuff. When I worked in personal finance, the two main ways you provided value to people was to: A. Guide them towards a strategy like this (I haven't checked the link yet but it looks like Ray Dalios strategy - and for those who don't know he's one of the best in the world to do it) B. Keep them from switching the strategy around, especially when emotions are running high and the world's going crazy. This is when people lose money, and the best thing a pro would do for you would be to help you keep your cool (not give you some secret investment strategy - those guys are mostly shysters). Technically speaking, if youre putting money in with the intention on 'flipping' it within 10 years, you're speculating and not investing.